Is Warhammer today really a rip off when compared to Warhammer in the late 90s?

[Orange Knight]

I found this great and also very funny video that clearly had a lot of research put into it.

 

The TLDR answer is: Yes, but also No?

 

 

Edited November 9 by Orange Knight

[Scribe]

I'm guessing, as I dont watch Youtube videos.

 

Cost per model up.

Value (points) per model down.

 

GW has done an amazing job of maximizing their profits.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Haven’t watched yet but midwinter minis did a comparison a few years ago, and generally when adjusting for inflation most units that existed way back when are technically cheaper since a lot were units of 5-10 bought in blister packs of of 1-3.

 

however any sort of character unit skyrocketed in cost.

[Grotsmasha]

Midwinter also did two recent videos, The BEST Wahammer has ever been,  and The WORST Wahammer has even been, released at the same time.

Pretty interesting points in both of them, and funnily enough, the answers were both Yes, and No

[sitnam]

5 hours ago, Scribe said:

Value (points) per model down.

 

I feel like this is true, but scanning through some 3rd/4th vs 10th edition points, it's not quite as clear.

 

Points cost for Cadian Shock Troops vs 3e infantry squads is 65 vs 60. But modern Cadians come with a box and specials for free, whereas old infantry were just 10 dudes with lasguns.  On the other hand, the costs  of guard vehicles has kept pretty steady. Scout Sentinels now cost the same as 3e models with Lascannons, Hellhounds are actually a tad more expensive  now without including 3e upgrades. A Leman Russ with pintle heavy stubber, Hunter Killer missile, and hull Lascannon and sponson bolters is a 2 point difference from now and 3rd (btw, was 12 points for a pintle heavy stubber ever worth it besides filler?)

 

Chaos Space Marines is another example. 3e CSM were 70 points for 5 with barebones war gear and no aspiring champion, modern CSM are 90 for 5 with an AC and special weapon. A 3E Defiler with max upgrades cost the same as a Defiler now.

 

So those first two examples were pretty unclear to me. If really depends on how much you wanted to deck out for upgrades or your weapon choices. Vehicles seem to hold value better.

 

But then I saw 3E Necrons, where basic Warriors were double their points now,the Monolith was half its current cost, and Scarab Swarms are slightly more expensive now. This leads me to believe an analysis really needs to go faction by faction

 

 

Edited November 10 by sitnam

[Beef]

Certainly money wise it does feel like a rip off now then in the early 90s when i started.  I have adult money now but that just means i spend more money now.  Personally i feel like others have stated character models are way over priced.  Especially when you see the 1 small plastic sprue for for the extortionate price they charge.  Back in the day atleast the higher price cost for characters could be attributed to the fact they were lead/metal compared to the standard plastic infantry models.

 

As for points cost it feels like the points have stayed the same roughly.  the increase from 1500 point games to 2000 is a welcome change i found returning to the hobby.  

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, Beef said:

I have adult money now but that just means i spend more money now. 

 

Ah a position too true for many of us!

 

****

 

I think the price of things has gone up a lot and in recent years wages and income have not gone up as quickly alongside inflation. So warhammerz is more expensive alongside everything else.

 

In other words, the amount of spare income (dare I say, disposable income?) we have versus "back in the day" is much reduced.

 

Video games £70+ a pop? Dairy milk chocolate bar is over £2? A pint £5? What a world right now!

[Corswain]

Warhammer. Warhammer never changes.....

 

I stared covetously at things I couldn't afford then and I stare covetously at things I cannot afford now.

 

 

[TwinOcted]

9 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I found this great and also very funny video that clearly had a lot of research put into it.

 

The TLDR answer is: Yes, but also No?

 

 

The guy running this channel does a really good analysis, and the answer's pretty much what we expect.  But ye gods, he needs to realise he's not as funny as he thinks he is.  Eating caviar into the microphone, and recording in the shower, what's that about?

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, TwinOcted said:

The guy running this channel does a really good analysis, and the answer's pretty much what we expect.  But ye gods, he needs to realise he's not as funny as he thinks he is.  Eating caviar into the microphone, and recording in the shower, what's that about?

 

The caviar bit went on too long, I agree. Was that supposed to be him eating people's salty tears? Who knows

Once the analysis and comparison gets going at least it's a great video.

It's interesting to consider that the majority of kits aren't actually more expensive when everything is accounted for, but the value inflation of the Hero models is both real and outrageous. I do think that making plastic injection moulds for a single character that most people will only purchase once may be the biggest factor in the price hike.

[Domhnall]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Ah a position too true for many of us!

 

****

 

I think the price of things has gone up a lot and in recent years wages and income have not gone up as quickly alongside inflation. So warhammerz is more expensive alongside everything else.

 

In other words, the amount of spare income (dare I say, disposable income?) we have versus "back in the day" is much reduced.

 

Video games £70+ a pop? Dairy milk chocolate bar is over £2? A pint £5? What a world right now!

And a Freddo is now 35p! Egad! 

 

Video games do seem to be the odd ones out when it comes to price and inflation.... I'm sure I remember a mega drive (Genesis) games were releasing in the £40-£50 range back in the mid 90's.  So going by inflation, £80-£100 should really be the norm today, but they're still a bit lower than that *.

 

Regarding single character costs, they are ridiculously expensive, even though they do have more gubbins added in the box. A box of 10 intercessors = £40. A captain is £27. 67% of the cost. From the 1997 price list, a 10 box of Space Marines (Metal tactical Squad) was £20 (it was £10 for the bare bones, no frills plastic ones), A standard captain is of your choice was £4. So that's either 20% or 40% depending on what box you compare it to.

 

* - Admittedly, that market is now a different beast as microtransactions, in game purchases, etc have created a sepearate revenue stream meaning games can be cheaper. Can you imagine, a world where you could buy additional seperate bitz for your bought boxed sets and stick them out? Madness**  

** - and yes, I'm not lost on the irony, that this was a thing GW used to do!

[roryokane]

17 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I found this great and also very funny video that clearly had a lot of research put into it.

 

The TLDR answer is: Yes, but also No?

 

 

Watched this today. Excellent video - and covers the period I've been in the hobby (the flamer guy on the left was in the first box of Marines I ever bought!)! Interesting analysis, though, and explains why the £10 plastic Tactical Squad was SUCH good value and why it's stuck in my brain as THE pricepoint against which I benchmark everything else.

[Blissful Brushes]

I think a lot depends on what you do with your minis. If you rush to build and paint them and knock out your full squad in a day or less, then the time/cost ratio is pretty poor. Likewise if you buy your primaris captain for £25 rather than converting from a regular marine, your costs shoot through the roof.

 

All of my HQ are built out of regular marines and I sculpt the fun stuff myself, but that’s how I hobby, so all of my marines are your basic A1 marine with the odd bit from eBay which keeps my costs down significantly as I get nearly a full squad for the RRP of a character.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

17 hours ago, Beef said:

Certainly money wise it does feel like a rip off now then in the early 90s when i started.  I have adult money now but that just means i spend more money now.  Personally i feel like others have stated character models are way over priced.  Especially when you see the 1 small plastic sprue for for the extortionate price they charge.  Back in the day atleast the higher price cost for characters could be attributed to the fact they were lead/metal compared to the standard plastic infantry models.

 

As for points cost it feels like the points have stayed the same roughly.  the increase from 1500 point games to 2000 is a welcome change i found returning to the hobby.  

I think it’s mostly due to loss of spending power that it feels that way.

[Vassakov]

Is it a "rip off"? Well, that's for the individual consumer to decide. Personally I think that an item of clothing marked up by daft% because it was produced by [brand I care not one jot about] is a rip off, but they have the sales and profits to prove me wrong. Similarly, I take the view that £100 for a stadium gig featuring one of my favourite bands is a price worth paying for a great experience, but others are rather less happy and feel that the price rises at the higher end of concerts are no longer justifiable. 

 

It is fascinating to do these deep dives into prices, inflation and the impact on minis - there absolutely now is a "character tax" in a way that there just wasn't in the late 90's/early 00's and the monopose, highly limited options of a lot of newer sculpts does undermine the historic argument about plastic giving more options. Though they are a million times easier to convert and kitbash than metal models. I also agree with the points in the video that comparing say the old metal Avatar to the new plastic one isn't really fair as they're completely different products. 

 

It also depends on what you want to look at - the shift from FW resin to GW plastic in Heresy has resulted in a lot of the vehicles and some of the infantry kits coming down in price massively - the most recent example being the Fellblade, from a $305 resin brick in 2020 to a $210 plastic, multipart kit with options today.

 

And things like the Land Raider and Predator kit for 40k are basically in line with inflation, even if it hurts that they are literally twice what they used to be... but so are a lot of things. That is, unfortunately, economics. 

Edited November 11 by Vassakov

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Also there are a lot more options for discount/starter boxes now than there were in the 90s and early 00s.

 

I think that’s also a big factor to consider when comparing affordability.

 

if you can afford the larger upfront investment of a $150-300 box you’ll end up saving money in the long run.

[Beef]

15 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I think it’s mostly due to loss of spending power that it feels that way.

 

By loss of spending power i take it you mean explaining the new purchases to the wife then yes.  As a teenager i didn't haver to really think twice about my spending, i either had the money to spend or i didn't.  now its   a case of do i really need this or should i finish my grey pile of shame first.  

[sbarnby71]

Cost of everything has gone up, my first 2 bedroom house, £34k, that won't even buy you a decent car these day, my first decent car cost me £1,200.  The detail in the models has gone off the charts in that time, I would say any decent painter would be spending a lot more time on a single mini now, than back then, so count the increase in line with how much time/fun you get painting (if painting is your jam).

 

No-one sniffs at paying through the nose for the latest iPhone, or Galaxy, life is more expensive and companies set their price point based on what customers will pay, if it's too much, then they lose customers, there is a lot of business savy goes into pricing, you can't just go I'll charge £100 per model, they're addicted to the plastic, they will sell their grandmothers to get the latest Lieutenant!

 

Just wait for the UK Budget in a few weeks and see how expensive things are going to get.  I maybe forced to start eating my grey pile of shame!   

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Beef said:

 

By loss of spending power i take it you mean explaining the new purchases to the wife then yes.  As a teenager i didn't haver to really think twice about my spending, i either had the money to spend or i didn't.  now its   a case of do i really need this or should i finish my grey pile of shame first.  

No I mean a dollar doesn’t have as much purchasing power as it used to.

that’s what inflation does.

 

its why my parents’ house cost $250k for 2500sq and an acre and a half in the 2000s and the house I live in is 1300sq ft, less than a quarter acre and cost $260k

 

1 hour ago, sbarnby71 said:

Cost of everything has gone up, my first 2 bedroom house, £34k, that won't even buy you a decent car these day, my first decent car cost me £1,200.  The detail in the models has gone off the charts in that time, I would say any decent painter would be spending a lot more time on a single mini now, than back then, so count the increase in line with how much time/fun you get painting (if painting is your jam).

 

No-one sniffs at paying through the nose for the latest iPhone, or Galaxy, life is more expensive and companies set their price point based on what customers will pay, if it's too much, then they lose customers, there is a lot of business savy goes into pricing, you can't just go I'll charge £100 per model, they're addicted to the plastic, they will sell their grandmothers to get the latest Lieutenant!

 

Just wait for the UK Budget in a few weeks and see how expensive things are going to get.  I maybe forced to start eating my grey pile of shame!   

 

I definitely sniff at new phone prices I’ll always remain at least 2 gens behind lol

[Frogian]

23 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Also there are a lot more options for discount/starter boxes now than there were in the 90s and early 00s.

 

I think that’s also a big factor to consider when comparing affordability.

 

if you can afford the larger upfront investment of a $150-300 box you’ll end up saving money in the long run.

 

yeah but no 3 for 2 deals like back in the 90s, of free blister with a box. 

though new edition boxes coming with what actually feels like an army is great. hopefully combat patrol becomes as good a system as spearhead

[Valkyrion]

The main systems boxed sets (either the Indomitus style short terms, or the Combat Patrol type long terms) represent really good value these days compared with most of the editions before. 

Only Dark Vengeance really had anything like a proper force prior to 8th. 3rd edition had a tactical squad and a land speeder worth about 200 points, transpose 10th edition to 2nd edition points values and those space marines could reach 1000 points. 

If you back date £134 to 1993 it comes to £61, and 40k 2nd edition was £50, I believe, so the improvement in content far outweighs the increase in price.

 

Similarly, if you bought both Age of Darkness and Saturnine boxed sets you'd now have a 3000 point army for less than £400 at full retail. I'd be surprised if that was achievable in any other era of 40k, WFB, Epic, or AoS. 

 

The only reason to think it was cheaper way back when is because the numbers are smaller, and in isolation that seems like enough for it to be true, but in context and relative to everything else, I'm not sure its actually ever been as cheap as it is today.

 

[Frogian]

1 hour ago, Valkyrion said:

If you back date £134 to 1993 it comes to £61, and 40k 2nd edition was £50, I believe, so the improvement in content far outweighs the increase in price.

 

Bit off on the price. So it's 75% more, but that's still fair enough given the improvement in what you get quantity and quality wise i would say. 

 

 

Though I just checked the mail order section of that WD, and Ghazghkull (with Makari) was £4.99! He's nearly 10 times more expensive now! (no one post a comparison picture pls)

 

Edited Wednesday at 04:13 PM by Frogian

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

A 2nd 40K SM army:

- Cpt.

- Librarian

- Techmarine

- #10 Tacticals

- #5 Devas

- Rhino

- Dreadnought

 

And when 3rd 40K rolled around the above list had become illegal. The same happened when HH 3.0 arrived as FOC changed. LOL! So yes, back in the day you needed way less units to create exponentially more fun.

 

[Valkyrion]

30 minutes ago, Frogian said:

 

Bit off on the price. So it's 75% more, but that's still fair enough given the improvement in what you get quantity and quality wise i would say. 

 

 

 

 

Right you are, it was £50 by the end of the edition. Remember when editions used to last longer than 3 years? Ah, those were the days. 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

30 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

 

Right you are, it was £50 by the end of the edition. Remember when editions used to last longer than 3 years? Ah, those were the days. 

We are having it nowadays much better than in the past because more companies offer hobby materials such as paints, texture paints for bases, basing materials such as tufts and plants, etc. So we are not held hostage by GW. Granted in most cases their models are still the best on the market though their competitors are no longer bottom tier trash. You can perfectly buy a box of beakie marines and a couple of never-do-wells and recreate the strip & search scene from the Rogue Trader book.