Being a thread on the Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought

[LSM]

Prompted by posts about what a current Emperor's Children/Slaanesh Sonic Dreadnought datasheet would be like, as well as what the future might hold for the concept, I thought about going over the history of the old girl.

 

(As always, corrections and additions most welcome.)

 

 

1996 Codex: Chaos

 

Perhaps an odd place to start, but this was where some of the first lore of Chaos Dreadnoughts in general started to deviate from Loyalists. While both's Dreadnoughts are said to be ancient warmachines, constantly salvaged and repaired (the knowledge of their construction "virtually lost" by the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Dark Mech not really being a notable at this point), Chaos Space Marines are said to find internment a torture or punishment, and resent it far worse than a Space Marine (who at least can tell themselves that it's a great and honourable duty).

 

They are noted to be, on average, quite insane. To represent this, Chaos Dreadnoughts had both Frenzy and Stupidity (with special rules for working out which might have effect over the other).

 

There was also an entire two pages on Dreadnought Weapons. They were noted to have been testbeds for new weaponry, and so often had Mk1 Heavy Plasma Guns (the lore being that infantry Plasma Cannons didn't exist until after the Heresy), Autocannons and Heavy Bolters (with special systems to prevent jamming and overheating), Lascannons (with more advanced targeting systems), the original Havoc Launchers, auxiliary Combi-Weapons (generally fitted to the torso, rather than the arm), and esoteric melee weapons like the Power Scourge, Power Claw, and Thunder Hammer. (The latter of which was also noted to only be mounted on Dreadnoughts at the time of the Heresy, being literally too big to be wielded by infantry until later, smaller iterations.)

 

This is the Codex that created the concept of the Cult Legions, and it talks about Noise Marines in the same manner as the other Cult Troops/Terminators. "...the Emperor's Children are a savage fighting force. Like many of Slaanesh's followers they have become what are known as Noise Marines."* The Marks at this point (which could only be given to characters) didn't equate one-to-one with the Cults (ie. a Slaaneshi character didn't get a Noise Marine's Psychic Cacophony, a Khorne character didn't get a Berzerker's Furious Charge, a Nurgle character couldn't take a Plague Knife, and... well, Tzeentch was a bit of a special case, as arguably the Sorcerers are the Cult, and the Rubricae an extension of them). They also couldn't be given to Vehicles.

 

But if you wanted to theme a vehicle to a certain god, there were four upgrades available (Nurgling Infestation, Coruscating Warp Flame, Destroyer, and the Warp Amp). Warp Amps were for "Slaanesh Daemonic Vehicles only" and required the presence of at least one unit of Noise Marines (the other gods' gifts did not require the presence of their Cult), but could technically not be given to a Chaos Dreadnought (only Land Raiders, Predators, and Rhinos). Still worth mentioning, I think. Warp Amplifiers were described as rune-encrusted pipes and horns which projected resonating warp energy which made it difficult to maintain coherent thought, and so reduced Leadership the closer the enemy got to it (-1 at within 18", -2 within 12", and -3 within 6").

 

1999 Codex: Chaos Space Marines

 

Presented mostly the same, though gaining a Multi-Melta (and ~Plasma Cannon). Melee options were condensed into a singular "Dreadnought close combat weapon" with twin-linked Bolter (or Heavy Flamer). The Frenzy/Stupidity was replaced by Fire Frenzy! where before Shooting you'd roll a d6. On a '1', instead of firing its guns it would move d6" towards the nearest enemy and if it was within 6" then it must Charge in the Assault Phase, but doubled its Attacks characteristic. On a '6', the Dreadnought couldn't move in the upcoming Assault Phase, and you would immediately fire all of its guns twice, allocating hits starting with the model nearest to you (friend or foe).

 

In this Codex, a Chaos Dreadnought could not take a Havoc Launcher (or Searchlight, or Smoke Launchers) but could take a Chaos Vehicle Gift like a Warp Amp. (Which functioned identically to in 2nd; uniquely requiring the presence of Noise Marines to be taken, and modifying enemy Leadership.) Marks were still a thing for Characters only, so the way of having a "Slaaneshi Dreadnought" would be to buy it a Warp Amp. 

 

Side note: whereas the previous Codex (and every subsequent Codex until 10th edition) had Sonic Weapons as an optional upgrade for Noise Marine, the 1999 Codex (like the 1991 White Dwarf rules, 1993 Black Codex rules, and 2025 Codex rules) had Sonic Blasters as the basic loadout, with no ability to take a simple Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon build. (Though in '91, '93, and '99 a Sonic Blaster was more of a Bolter equivalent than the modern ~Heavy Bolter analogue.)

 

 

(As a preview of things to come, some Adrian Smith card art from the 2003 WH40k CCG set "The Siege of Malogrim Hive'. This chap was named Amadeo.)

 

2001 Index Astartes, White Dwarf 255

 

The Emperor's Children army rules were a little funny compared to those of the other Cult Legions (potentially as a result of them being the first to get such a list). Rather than presenting a list with a couple bespoke units, the Third gets the entire Codex (minus any Mark other than Slaanesh, but also not requiring the Mark like the other Cult Legions). There are then some restrictions (0-1 Havocs, Predators, and Land Raiders; only Slaaneshi Daemons, etc), and a bunch of units get access to Sonic Blasters and Blastmasters which they otherwise would not have - "Noise-ifying" them up, even if they are not perverted to the degree of the Noise Marines.

 

One of the main notable points to the rules was the special bit about Emperor's Children Dreadnoughts. As encasement in a Dreadnought was even more of a hell for a sensation addict of the Third than the average CSM, they would be subject to Fire Frenzy's Blood Rage! (the "can't-shoot, must Charge") on a 1 or 2, rather than just a 1. Additionally, they also gained access to Sonic Blasters. But note: they were an upgrade to the Dreadnought's Bolters - not their "main weapon".

 

2002 Codex: Chaos Space Marines

 

Here we see the Emperor's Children rules pushed to be in line with the other Cult Legions. (Though it should be remembered that Noise Marines were far more diverse in their weapon options than the other Cults.) Vehicles could still not be Marked, but Vehicles dedicated to Slaanesh gained the Warp Amp ability. (It's effects were tightened up a bit, reducing enemy Leadership by -1 within 12", -2 within 6", and -3 in base contact, and there was no longer a need to have Noise Marines present.)

 

Also introduced was the new Dirge Caster upgrade for Vehicles. (This will come up again.) At the time, the Dirge Caster was lorefully a broadcaster putting out a non-stop litany of Chaos. This bolstered the morale of CSMs nearby, making any within 6" Fearless. It could specifically not be given to a Vehicle which already had a Warp Amp (ie. a Dirge Caster could not be given to a Vehicle dedicated to Slaanesh) and Noise Marines themselves were already Fearless (so a Dirge Caster was not useful to the Emperor's Children).

 

The Chaos Dreadnought got back their Havoc Launchers (etc) and gained the option of taking two Dreadnought close combat weapons. (Humourously, the rules block says it's "unlikely this component will be made" but it's an option "for those interested in doing conversions"). Fire Frenzy is still present, though the '1' result is now to Move 6+d6" (and flips to a '6' if Immobilised) while the '6' result is now to fire twice at the nearest enemy unit (and flips to a '1' if none is visible/in range).

 

In this Codex, while every Infantry unit had to be given the Mark of Slaanesh (ie at this time, be a Noise Marine), Vehicles were not required in the Cult Legions to be dedicated. Still, if a Chaos Dreadnought had been dedicated to Slaanesh (and had a Warp Amplifier) then in an Emperor's Children army (and only in an Emperor's Children army) they could replace a twin-linked Heavy Bolter with a twin-linked Sonic Blaster, a twin-linked Autocannon with a (single) Blastmaster, and a Heavy Flamer with a Doom Siren. (The Codex has a mistake and says Flamer instead of Heavy Flamer, but it was FAQ'd.)

 

The first option, you will note, is a straight downgrade (R24" vs R36", S4 vs S5, AP5 vs AP4, both 3 shots). If I recall correctly, Andy Chambers even replied to an FAQ question about whether there was intended to be some sort of benefit with, "~it's just in the rules for thematic purposes". The (Single Frequency) Blastmaster is more reasonable, but still not great (R36" vs R48", S8 vs S7, both AP4, Blast vs 2 shots with Hit rerolls). The Doom Siren is a step down in Strength and AP vs a Heavy Flamer, but Doom Sirens also forced enemies in cover to fight at Initiative Order so there was some reason to take one.

 

2003 Forge World 

 

Around this time, Forge World began the process of making Chaos Dreadnoughts for all the Chaos Legions. This mostly consisted of special torsos (using the generic legs and arms), but as Emperor's Children Dreadnoughts actually had (not particularly good) rules for weapons variants, the Third's Dreadnoughts got some extras in the form of a twin-linked Sonic Blaster arm, and a Blastmaster arm.

 

 

I'd also like to make a special call out to the Emperor's Children Dreadnought head, which is particularly awesome, and I wish we had gotten/will get in future a reference to it in some capacity.

 

 

I'd further like to make note of the "screaming face speaker" bits that go on top. Particularly, I see these referred to commonly as Doom Siren bits (and they might have been labelled as such at some point), but upon release the Doom Siren was an upgrade for the Heavy Flamer (which you can commonly see mounted on the torso in most pictures). As such, I think these were originally intended as ForgeWorld's take on what the Warp Amp upgrade looked like.

 

2009 Imperial Armour - Apocalypse II

 

With the 2007 Codex: Chaos Space Marines removing both broader Legion rules, and the godly Vehicle Gifts (including the Warp Amplifier), ForgeWorld decided to include rules for the "Slaanesh Sonic Dreadnought" in their Imperial Armour series. If a CSM army included at least one unit of Noise Marines, Chaos Dreadnoughts could be upgrade to be Slaanesh Sonic Dreadnoughts. This gave them: a Dirge Caster (now -1 to enemy Leadership when Tank Shock'ing), Assault grenades (to represent the noisiness, maybe - adding an effect like the Doom Siren used to provide), and a twin-linked Heavy Bolter could be exchanged for a twin-linked Sonic Blaster (still terrible), twin-linked Autocannon for a single Blastmaster (now good, the Single Frequency having gained more range, AP3 and 'Pinning'), and the Heavy Flamer for a Doom Siren (now really good, having gained S5 and AP3).

 

They also gained their own battle formation, called a Slaanesh Lament of the Damned. The lore notes again how Emperor's Children Dreadnoughts (being deprived sensory addicts) are even more insane than normal Chaos Dreadnoughts. (Speaking of which, Fire Frenzy was renamed Crazed - a good idea, as one of the results had always also been called Fire Frenzy! - and the '1' and '6' effects were flipped. Also: back to possibly shooting your own troops.) One Dreadnought in the formation would be designated a Fallen Lord, and gain the Daemonic special rule.

 

The formation also had the special rule 'Cacophony of Madness'. The combined effect of the Sonic Dreadnought's Dirge Casters and sonic weaponry can drive even the hardiest enemies insane merely by proximity as reality around them rebels and begins to mutate. Anyone wishing to Assault them had to pass a Morale check or be unable to do so that turn.

 

2014 Imperial Armour Volume Thirteen - War Machines of the Lost and the Damned

 

By 7th edition, the Sonic Dreadnought was in need of an update. Now completely their own unit (instead of a Chaos Dreadnought upgrade), they have a more bespoke suite of rules. 'Dedicated to Slaanesh' gave them Assault and Defensive Grenades, and 'Overdriven Sonic Weaponry' allowed a player to choose to give the model's sonic weapons Rending and Gets Hot. 

 

It's base weapons were now the twin-linked Sonic Blaster (with the twin-linked Heavy Bolter being a points upgrade, heh), a Chainfist with bolters, and a Doom Siren. (The first time that the Doom Siren is just... part of its loadout, rather than a trade for a Heavy Flamer.) Still, the Warp Amp was back as a unique upgrade (and what an upgrade): The baroque Warp Amplifiers mounted atop the Sonic Dreadnought siphon off and channel the fell powers of the Immaterium, modulated by the sinful soul of the champion interred within. The resulting cacophony is projected outwards through the Dreadnought's sonic weaponry in a torrent of excess before which few can stand. This allowed it to double the rate of fire of its sonic weapons if it did not Move.

 

2017 Index - Imperial Armour: Forces of Chaos

 

For 8th edition, the Sonic Dreadnought received updated rules for an updated ruleset... errr... well... sort of. It was mentioned in an FAQ.

 

The answer to "~is there a datasheet I should use for this model?" was: "Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of Index: Chaos. It must replace its <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword with SLAANESH, it must replace its <LEGION> keyword with EMPEROR'S CHILDREN, and it has two additional wargear options; it may take a doom siren, and it may replace its multi-melta with two blastmasters."

 

The Doom Siren was a nice bonus for Emperor's Children players, but the main thing to note is: either through casual disregard, or because someone finally realised that a twin-linked Sonic Blaster was incredibly unimpressive for a Vehicle-mounted weapons system, changing the arm mount into two (!) Blastmasters was a pretty huge upgrade. 

 

(Crazed changed from its old Fire Frenzy self, and now at the end of any Phase that it took a Wound, one rolled a d6. On a roll of '6' it immediately shot as if it were your Shooting Phase if it was not within engagement range, and immediately fought as if it was your Fight Phase if was within engagement range.)

 

2025 Codex: Emperor's Children

 

As we all know, there are no Sonic Helbrutes in the Codex - there aren't even regular Helbrutes, despite the picture of one on page 32, looming over some Terminators (see below). The fluff in the book does make frequent mention of Warp Amps though, as well as new things like Spite Hailers, and we're told that "combat walkers... thrum with a non-stop dirge of spirit-twisting horror."

 

The Emperor's Children, being deemed a "new army", have not received any Legends support. (Unlike World Eaters, who have rules for their Blood Slaughterers, etc.)

 

One of the Crusade Battle Traits for Vehicles is the Dirge Caster. "Hull-mounted vox-casters scream unholy invocations across the battlefield. Such cursed syllables are capable of inflicting harm on those who hear them." Enemies within 6" subtract -1 from their Leadership, and when such a unit fails a Battle-shock test they are also dealt 1 Mortal Wound.

 

 

//

 

So that's the past, what about the future?

 

There is speculation that the reason that there is no Helbrute in the Codex is that we will (relatively) quickly (ie 3-6 years) see the addition of a new kit taking its place. Whether a new Helbrute for CSM that we'd then borrow (perhaps with some Cult Legion aesthetic bits like the Daemon Prince), or an actual full Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought.

 

While the Sonic Blaster is now a bit more respectable, the Blastmaster is still flatly superior in a pointsless ruleset. As such, I'd hope that they don't bother with the former. The Codex art has the look of a twin-linked Lascannon, and a new kit could always pull from other sources and maybe include a Tormentor Cannon, etc.

 

It would also be pretty easy to whip up some Legends rules right now - just give a Helbrute the option for a Blastmaster (or two) and a couple unique abilities.

 

The 7th edition Warp Amp doesn't really fit the modern style (standing still to increase the number of shots), and 'Overdriven Sonic Weaponry" is basically the Devasting Wound + Hazardous trick that Forgefiends are currently pulling. In my thread trying to brainstorm some Sonic Cult Detachment ideas, I had an Enhancement called Psychosonic Overdrive which did basically that, though I have since moved that (in my notes) to a Strategem of the same name which gives Devastating Wound but leaves the unit Battle-shocked. Perhaps something similar? Likewise, I used Warp Amp as a 'Strat to decrease enemy Leadership nearby a targeted Vehicle.

 

Conceptually, I also like the idea of flipping the Warp Amp around and having it create a boost to the Sonic Weapons within a certain radius (rather than just the Dreadnought itself). Or perhaps it can rupture reality in different ways - slowing or weakening enemies around it?

 

Regardless, the Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought somewhat oddly managed to become an iconic unit of the Third Legion in 40k. I'd love to see them back in the range, and back on the tabletop.

 

//

 

*Aside: I wonder if this is how Bile ended up being an Unmarked (later Undivided) character? If maybe Jes Goodwin had sculpted him with the intent of being the EC's main guy, but Johnson/Chambers had conceptualised the Cult Legions and so (un-Noisy as Bile is) they felt he didn't fit and reframed him as ex-EC/a neutral party.

[LSM]

My attempt at a "Legends" datasheet (ie. not going too far afield with possibility).

• Started with a basic Helbrute profile, though... deciding on Movement was tricky. World Eater Helbrutes are M9", but World Eaters are generally higher Movement than Emperor's Children. The CSM Helbrute is M6", and Emperor's Children are broadly 1" faster... except Death Guard Helbrutes are M7" and Thousand Sons Helbrutes are M8". I eventually settled on M8", but... kind of an odd discrepancy. (Why are DG and TS Helbrutes faster than CSMs'?)
• Made the Blastmaster and Chainfist w Combi-Bolter the default loadout. (The Chainfist being frequently shown in its photography, and as it was 7th edition's basic weapon; though I suppose it's not really needed. One can just say it's a Helbrute Fist.) 
• As a twin-linked Sonic Blaster would be a generally inferior pick to the Blastmaster (or twin-linked Heavy Bolter) I made the option be 2 Sonic Blasters. I feel like this will create a use-case where people might actually want to choose it - equalling the shots of the Varied Frequency Blastmaster with Damage 2. Still probably a bit of the lesser choice, but an actual choice.
• I did consider doing as in 8th, and dropping the Sonic Blasters completely in favour of a twin-linked Blastmaster. (I think 2 Blastmasters might be a bit much?) In the end, I wanted some variety of sonic options, and figured that some people might still have the single Blastmaster component on their model.
• Also included the option to replace the Combi-Bolter(s) with (a) Screamer Pistol(s) - now that they've replaced Doom Sirens. This is probably the "best" option, but Heavy Flamers might still see play (for Overwatch) and Combi-Bolters can technically add more shots/range so aren't a strict downgrade.
• Overdriven Sonic Weaponry: text is pulled from the Forgefiend's Daemonic Ordnance (with a limitation to Sonic Weaponry, to incentivise its use), as it is the modern equivalent of the 7th edition rules. Name is a bit boring (I'd go with "Psychosonic Overdrive") but has precedent. Also thought about a Sustained Hits 2 + Hazardous instead, but decided to hew to the previous iterations of the rules for now.
• Warp Amplifier: the 7th edition "Remain Stationary, double shots" doesn't fit the play style of the faction, and the reduced Leadership of the original Warp Amp is already something that Noise Marines are providing. As such, I made this ability a forced Battle-shock test at the beginning of the Fight phase (text pulled from Raptors' Terrifying Assault and modified slightly). Also thought about something like "When an enemy unit is within 6" of this model, each time that enemy unit makes an attack subtract 1 from the Hit roll." Would make it an aggressive nuisance, but I think the Battle-shock test would actually give it some interplay with Noise Marines, which would be nice to have more of.
• Wanted to add the Smoke and Grenades keywords, as FW's Sonic Dreanought rules incorporated those things, but none of the other Helbrutes have them so I eventually chose against doing so.

[Sume]

Getting back from the Grand Narrative.  I had several Chaos players and even others that where not playing Chaos.  Thought the EC book was done dirty.  Due to registration mix up issues my Emperor's Children ended up fighting for the Imperium.  While not tossing my games.  I gave all my narrative resources to one of the chaos characters.  The World Eaters player I played against.  Was like I dont get why ALL my stuff actually moves faster then EC.  Also, he was like I dont get why there was no sonic tanks and dreadnaughts.  I hope this means GW will be redesigning a 2nd release for EC that includes things like predator tanks, defilers, hellbrutes, or whatever. At least more vehicle selection and more options to actually have the iconic noise marine weapons.  

[LSM]

The lack of Chaos Predators/Vindicators makes a certain degree of sense, if one wants to design the Emperor's Children in the Index Astartes (2001) sense of the Legion. (Where it was noted that they like two things: melee, and sonic weaponry. And where "driving a tank" was an ignobility that was shed as soon as a Legionnaire had enough juice to not be stuck with the role.)

 

Likewise, the lack of Obliterators (and their current sprue-brethren, Venomcrawlers) and Raptors/Warp Talons has a certain degree of 3rd edition logic (when these were their own Cults, and thus not fitting inclusions in the Cult Legions). Despite the frequent mention of Raptors in Emperor's Children Black Library fiction (The Rypax being prominent members of Lucius' Faultless, them being mentioned in Xantine's The Adored, again in Emmesh-Aiye's Wandering Court, and being one of the three pillars of Eidolon's late-Heresy forces).

 

Bikers... if we're about to get "Chaos Space Marine Helriders" (or what you will) with a new loadout/base size/etc taking their place, then it makes sense to hold back on Bikers for World Eaters and Emperor's Children. (And then add them after CSM's release.) Ditto for the Helbrute (or a planned 11th Sonic Dreadnought). If Defilers are not long for this world, then leaving them out also makes sense... I've got nothing for Forgefiends though. That's really the one that makes me think someone just wanted us to be a "quick/close/infantry" force.

 

Being slower base Movement than World Eaters is offset somewhat by Thrill Seekers.

 

//

 

Emperor's Children are also hurt by Terminators not being a more attractive unit, along with Sorcerers. When there are so few units, any duds really hurt.

 

//

 

There's also the "battle for the soul of the Legion" to consider. From '96 until ~2016 it was understood that the Sonic Cult pervaded the entire structure of the Legion. The Path of Heaven (2016) includes a whole subplot about that - the ideological conflict between Orchestrator Konenos and Prefector Cario. (The former considering the other distastefully "unambitious", the latter hating the Sonic Cult and, in the end, choosing to allow himself to be struck down rather than spiral into "Fulgrim's perversions" as the rest of the Legion was doing.)

 

Due to the popularity of the pre-Heresy version of the Third, as well as the Fabius Bile series (which presents the Emperor's Children as being very much a standard CSM army, and not a Cult Legion so to speak; including retconning things like the Shattering of Lugganath), many people consider the Sonic Cult a minor sideshow. Officially, the sculptors of the new range definitely continued to include the classic Noise Marine motifs throughout the line, but the rules writers have more or less ignored it. (In stratagems, etc.)

 

This is the kind of thing that results in people considering Lucius to not be a member of the Sonic Cult (despite wearing the Armour of Shrieking Souls), or Xantine (despite screaming a Genestealer Patriarch into submission), or even Eidolon himself (despite being the First of the Kakophoni). 

 

If the Sonic Cult is conceptually reduced to just the modern Noise Marine (Havocesque) unit, and they are shunted to the side as (an incredibly valuable and intrinsic) support piece, rather than the soul - rather than the apex - of what it means to be an Emperor's Children Legionnaire, then things like Sonic Dreadnoughts, Sonic Predators, Sonic Terminators, etc stop making sense as natural avenues to expand the range.

 

Instead, non-Sonic Cult Phoenix Guard Terminators, Sunkillers, Wings of the Phoenician, etc - a pre-Heresy style Third - becomes more instinctive. 

 

Edited November 16 by LSM

[Slaanbull]

Lovely overview as always, made me pick up some of my old books and reread these sections. Thanks!

 

And I find myself agreeing with your musings again, I've tried making some homebrew rules for EC helbrutes when the new book came out, and found myself stumped when trying to figure out the movement stat alone, because as you've mentioned, the different datasheets are so very different. It is a strength with the current system where a World Eater XYZ stat-line does not necessarily match a CSM XYZ. But it also seems completely nonsensical at times and really underlines the issues with staggered codices in an age of online rules.

 

I think the most important part of making a working sonic helbrute datasheet is making a fun special rule. Looking at the other helbrutes we have:

• Chaos Space Marines
  Dark Ascension (Aura): While a friendly HERETIC ASTARTES unit is within 6" of this model, each time that unit makes a Dark Pact, until the end of the phase, weapons equipped by models in that unit gain both abilities conferred by that pact (instead of only one).
• Death Guard
  Diseased Malice: Each time this model makes an attack that targets an Afflicted unit, add 1 to the Wound roll.
• Thousand Sons
  Terrifying Assault: In your Shooting phase and the Fight phase, after this model has shot or fought, select one enemy unit hit by one or more of those attacks. That unit must take a Battle-shock test, subtracting 1 from that test if it is within 9" of one or more THOUSAND SONS PSYKER units from your army.
• World Eaters
  Frenzy: In your opponent’s Shooting phase, and in the Fight phase, each time an enemy unit targets this model, after that unit has finished making its attacks, this model can either shoot or fight, but when resolving those attacks it can only target that enemy unit (and only if it is an eligible target).

I am quite partial to just copying WE Frenzy, since it brings back fond memories of my crazy dreadnoughts/helbrutes... But for the rest they've done a good job differentiating them a lot, and working quite well (IMO) with other rules and units in the army.

With your historical walkthroughs of rules I realised that something had bothered me a bit. A lot of Slaanesh rules be it WHFB or WH40k have related to Immune to Psychology stuff, and currently my noise marines, tormentors, characters etc fail battleshock just as easily as everyone else.
So how about combining the historical Doom Sirens, Dirge Caster effects and whatnot with the current Doom Siren rule, but make it an effect measured from the helbrute?
Tremendous Kakophoni: In your shooting phase, after this model has shot, select up to 3 enemy INFANTRY units within 6" and roll 3 D6 per unit: For each 4+, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound. In addition, until your next Shooting phase, friendly INFANTRY units withing 6" automatically pass Battle-shock tests.

Something like this plays slightly into our current playstyle requiring us to pressure the enemy a lot, while also conferring an effect that requires us to give up some board control if we want the benefit of castling around a Leadership lynchpin? To keep it up we also have to shoot what I imagine would be a short range sonic weapon (18") for where there might not always be a viable target, and is not particularly anti-any of the unit types we currently struggle with. An anti-vehicle rule would make it too much of a no-brainer for example. :-) It could be modified to adding +1 to friendly Battle-shock tests, rerolls, etc. But you get the idea.

 

And while I am all for not-noise specific units, although I do like it as an overall theme; if there is one unit that should reflect the sonic warfare cult in addition to noise marines, it really should be our dreadnought. Sorry helbrute.

[LSM]

10 hours ago, Slaanbull said:

With your historical walkthroughs of rules I realised that something had bothered me a bit. A lot of Slaanesh rules be it WHFB or WH40k have related to Immune to Psychology stuff, and currently my noise marines, tormentors, characters etc fail battleshock just as easily as everyone else.

 

30k's late-Heresy Rite of War for Emperor's Children allows you to "Stupify" your units - giving them +1 Strength, a 6+ FNP, and immunity to Tactical Statuses in return for not being able to use Reactions and needing 5+'s to hit with shooting.

 

It would be fun if there was a Detachment that gave you bonusses for being Battle-shocked, and then also allowed you to choose to make units Battle-shocked (in response to various things like getting shot or being charged) as well as the tests you'd naturally take during a game. Some boost, to play up that the Emperor's Children are really into messed up experiences and enjoy things getting out of control - indeed, it's where their individual combat prowess shines the brightest.

 

(Or maybe, like, when any model that is Battle-shocked is destroyed, do not remove them from play. Instead, that model may Shoot as if it was your Shooting Phase or Fight as if it was your Fight Phase. After all of their attacks have been resolved, remove them from play.)

 

Edited November 18 by LSM

[Slaanbull]

6 hours ago, LSM said:

 

30k's late-Heresy Rite of War for Emperor's Children allows you to "Stupify" your units - giving them +1 Strength, a 6+ FNP, and immunity to Tactical Statuses in return for not being able to use Reactions and needing 5+'s to hit with shooting.

 

It would be fun if there was a Detachment that gave you bonusses for being Battle-shocked, and then also allowed you to choose to make units Battle-shocked (in response to various things like getting shot or being charged) as well as the tests you'd naturally take during a game. Some boost, to play up that the Emperor's Children are really into messed up experiences and enjoy things getting out of control - indeed, it's where their individual combat prowess shines the brightest.

 

(Or maybe, like, when any model that is Battle-shocked is destroyed, do not remove them from play. Instead, that model may Shoot as if it was your Shooting Phase or Fight as if it was your Fight Phase. After all of their attacks have been resolved, remove them from play.)

 

It’s always fun with tradebacks, especially in a game with objective actions etc. Some of the old fearless effects also removed the option of a voluntary fallback, so there’s plenty of precedence.

 

How about passing battle-shock but not allowing fall back and charge per our Thrill Seekers, maybe even disallowing fallbacks from all units in engagement range of the dreadnought to force a different kind of stuck-in melee around the sonic dreadnought. Providing it shoots its sonic weapons that is.

 

edit: Your last part about allowing battle-shocked units to perform a pile in and attack is also an interesting mechanic. A slight bonus but still under affect by no stratagems, OC penalty etc.

Edited November 18 by Slaanbull

[Rain]

My take on the noise question is that almost all EC are at least noise dilettantes, considering noise as another form of sensory overload, among many. Hence the speakers added to armor, implanted directly into mouths, and options like the Screamer Pistol on Exaltants.

 

However, what makes the Noise Marines true Noise Marines is their obsession with the Song of Slaanesh, and largely to the exclusion of other forms of overstimulation. Actually, on this point, I have a pet theory about the Song of Slaanesh, and Noise Weaponry in general. Namely, that the Song of Slaanesh *is* Slaanesh, or is at least an auditory projection of Slaanesh into realspace. Slaanesh is an eldritch god, so I don’t think it’s implausible that it has an auditory form, as well as physical and visual forms, and that Noise Weapons project this auditory form into realspace, hence their bizarre effects.

 

As such, Noise Marines are the priests of Slaanesh, obsessed with projecting the most perfect form of their god into reality, at the expense of many of the other—diversions on their legion-mates. In other words, while to most EC noise weapons, warp screams, etc. may be just another weapon or form of self-gratification, to a true Noise Marine they are part of a religious duty to manifest their god, which is what creates the distinction.

Edited Saturday at 08:38 PM by Rain

[LSM]

Yeah. As far as Noise Marines' relationship with the Emperor's Children over the years (quick-ish version):

• 1988: Emperor's Children marines are drugged up, pleasure addicted, experience junkies; they treat combat as a thrill and aphrodisiac. Rules wise, they are Chaos Renegades who only have Slaanesh Daemons, have some extra Cool, and Hallucinogen Grenades as standard. 
• 1991: The Noise Marines were a once loyal Chapter who were mutated by Slaanesh to have all of their senses heightened insanely. Regular experience became pale and worthless, and they now crave extreme sensation. They paint their armour in riotous colours, as only the most extravagant patterns register in their vision, and seek out battle to experience the "music of the apocalypse" - found in the screams of the dying, and the cacophony that they can produce. Sonic Blasters are default equipment, and are like fancy Bolters that lorefully shoot sound (but model wise have magazines, with visible Bolts).
• 1996: The pre-existing Noise Marine and Emperor's Children backgrounds are literally woven together. It is said that the Emperor's Children "have become what are known as Noise Marines" and while they don't get explicit rules one assumes they (and Death Guard) are meant to function in the same way as World Eaters and Thousand Sons. (ie. all [x] Cult Troops, [x] Cult Terminators, [x] Marked Characters, [x] Daemons, and vehicles.) Default equipment is BP+CCW, Sonic Weapons are upgrades.
• 1999: Lore is scant, but it's perhaps worth noting that the 'Colours of Chaos' gallery shows 5 Legions (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers) and 4 Cults (Plague Marines, Khorne Berzerkers, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines), implying that the Emperor's Children are synonymous with Noise Marines in the same manner as the other Cult Legions. The Noise Marine unit does have Sonic Blasters as default equipment again (though they're still Bolter-equivalents at this point).
• 2001: It is said that "most" Emperor's Children became Noise Marines post-Heresy, joining with "other" Slaanesh Space Marines in vile crusades. Rules wise, Emperor's Children armies were the only Cult Legion that could take unmarked models. (Though this might have been because they were the first to get a list, and thus were half-baked.) It's noted that not all Emperor's Children "are perverted to the degree of Noise Marines", but does so in the flavour text for a rule allowing regular unmarked units to take Sonic Weapons. (Other text mentions that the Legion loves two things: melee and Sonic Weaponry.) Also, "Slaanesh Terminator" and "Noise Marine Terminator" are used interchangeably, and this is when the "perfectionist" angle was added to the lore (though originally characterising the pre-Heresy Emperor's Children).
• 2002: Emperor's Children were brought in line with the other Cult Legions (ie. all Noise Marines), but Noise Marines were the most diverse of the Cult Troops as far as the breadth of weapons options available. (Plague Marines were Bolters and Special Weapons, Khorne Berzerkers were Bolters/BPs, Khornate Chainaxe/CCWs, and Plasma Pistols, Thousand Sons' Rubricae were Bolter-locked, and Noise Marines... had no restrictions, and then also had Sonic Weaponry in addition.)
• 2007: A caption in the gallery says that not all Emperor's Children have become Noise Marines, and that some still fight with "traditional weaponry"... but the Noise Marine unit itself was armed with Bolters, BPs, and CCWs (so it's a weird thing to say; and the models labelled thus had elsewhere been - and would again be - labelled as Noise Marines). Sonic Weapons were an optional upgrade. The lore for the Emperor's Children is found in the Noise Marine unit's lore.
• 2012: While not explicit, the presented Emperor's Children lore continues to portray them as all Noise Marines (and Noise Marines continue to be diverse). Their warriors are all mutated sensation junkies, for whom battle is a thrill and aphrodisiac, and who scream in ecstasy with every kill to add to the clamour. (The more "cerebral" pure, proud excess is the realm of the Flawless Host, in comparison.) The Shattering is described for the first time, committed by a force of "several hundred" Noise Marines. Boltguns continue to be the default Noise Marine weapon, while "many specialise" in the use of Sonic Weapons.
• 2012: The Horus Heresy game's rules for Emperor's Children include their upper echelon having access to "Surgical Augments", as in the novels, which are Sonic Cult based (Sonic Shriekers, and later also Sonic Lances and Sub-Sonic Pulsers). Later, the '3rd Company Elite' Rite of War would be noted to be "emblematic of the change" that had overcome the Legion, and would allow all infantry to take Surgical Augments (and for Kakophoni to be Troops).
• 2013: Index Chaotica: Noise Marines continues to portray the Emperor's Children as Noise Marines, and Noise Marines as diverse. Including noting entire Noise Marine warbands who focus themselves on melee combat. (eg. Volupus' Flickering Blades.)
• 2016: The Path of Heaven portrays the Emperor's Children as mutating sensation junkies, including a subplot between an Orchestrator and Prefector conflicting over the issue of the Sonic Cult becoming ubiquitous in the Legion. (Note: the Sonic Cult is not portrayed as only auditory noise based mutations, but all encompassing sensory excess. For example, Eidolon considers himself to have embraced the mutations of the Sonic Cult more than any other member of the Third. In the end, the Prefector allows himself to be struck down, as he doesn't see a way to continue to be both a Legionnaire of the Third and "unsullied".)
• 2016: Fabius Bile: Primogenitor releases. Set in M34, it portrays the Emperor's Children as a very "normal" CSM army, and changes Noise Marines into lofty stoners who make up a small side-show in the Legion, who solely and uniquely use Sonic Weapons, and who have to be enticed away from their hermitage and "The Song of Slaanesh" in order to show up on the battlefield. The book retcons The Shattering (from a force of "several hundred Noise Marines").
• 2017: Index: Chaos continues to note Noise Marines as "the heart" of Emperor's Children warbands (joined by Cultists, Daemons, and lithe war engines), and refers to them as howling lunatics. The Emperor's Children "cast strategy and tactics aside with the frantic avidity of pleasure-lost addicts" but their speed, savagery, skill, and Sonic Weapons make up for their complete lack of discipline.
• 2017: The CSM Codex notes that "many" of the Emperor's Children have become Noise Marines (which, by implication means that many have not). General lore continues to be that the Legion are sensory addicts, and old Noise Marine lore continues to apply to the whole Legion (noisy colour schemes, etc). Noise Marines described as "maniac thrill seekers", and we're still told that "many" Noise Marines specialise in the use of Sonic Weapons (with Bolters being the default loadout both in the lore and rules).
• 2022: The Emperor's Children are now said to actually be able to pull off all the "perfect" stuff that used to be the hallmark of the pre-Heresy Legion. Again, only "many" have degenerated into Noise Marines (while old Noise Marine lore is still broadly applied). Rules wise, the default equipment is still Bolters.
• 2024: Lord of Excess continues the Black Library's pigeon-holing of Noise Marines into being a small sub-cult in the Legion. However, at one point the main character (who is explicitly not a Noise Marine) screams a Genestealer Patriarch into submission (so he's definitely enjoyed the improvements of the Sonic Cult). The Noise Marines themselves are kind of lame - not even able to drag themselves away from the Song of Slaanesh long enough to save themselves from a doomed planet. Eidolon: The Auric Hammer has a character who is a Prefector who rejects the Sonic Cult (as in The Path of Heaven), but who then begins to hear "the song" in the way he assumes Eidolon, Plegua (Eidolon's chief Orchestrator), and Malakris (Eidolon's chief proto-Raptor Lord) must hear it. Stitching in the 2016 "Song of Slaanesh" stuff from the Fabius Bile books, but applying it to proto-Noise Marines, proto-Raptors, and proto-Flawless Blades.
• 2025: Noise Marines are effectively split in three, rules wise (Noise Marines, Infractors, Tormentors). Lore says that the Noise Marines represent an exclusive obsession with auditory excess, but still notes the whole thing with visual noise also being important to them. They also copy/pasted the old line about: "the staccato bark and blast of the boltgun is music to the Noise Marine's ears, and many specialise in the use of a variety of outlandish sound-based weapons." Except they deleted "the boltgun" and replaced it with "ferocious firepower", and all Noise Marines solely use Sonic Weapons now, which makes it all read weirdly.

Even though there's often been a touch of push-and-pull in the past: I blame Fabius Bile.

 

 

Essentially, Primogenitor redefined what a Noise Marine is to the popular audience. From howling lunatic, maniac thrill-seekers who lust for the battlefield in order to experience the Music of the Apocalypse, and wield a wide assortment of weaponry (some devoted entirely to melee; many even specialising in Sonic Weapons!) to dopey stoner hermit-monks, who only care about the Song of Slaanesh, and are the only ones who wield Sonic Weapons (and who only wield Sonic Weapons).

 

Not entirely that series' fault, of course. There are the contradictory bits in 2001 (where it says both that "most" Emperor's Children became Noise Marines, but also that "not all Emperor's Children are perverted to the degree of Noise Marines" in a rule about non-Noise Marines taking Sonic Weapons) and 2007 (where it says that "Not all the Emperor's Children have become Noise Marines. Some of them still fight with the traditional weaponry of the Chaos Space Marine Legions" in a book where a Noise Marine's basic loadout was a Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and Close Combat Weapon).

 

And books since have done the thing where a bunch of characters "aren't Noise Marines" while still having (Sonic) Surgical Augments. Or Eidolon: The Auric Hammer where it's suggested that more than the Kakophoni are under the thrall of the Song of Slaanesh. (Interestingly, the Codex doesn't bring up "The Song of Slaanesh", that I can recall. It does note that Sonic Weaponry finds its "ultimate expression" in the hands of Noise Marines while other Emperor's Children still wield them as well.)

 

I like the idea of the new Noise Marines quite a lot, so long as they don't remove the idea of the old Noise Marines. (I'm also not big on turning the Emperor's Children into the Flawless Host, but that's a different subject.) I'd like to see the Sonic Cult portrayed as more thoroughly intertwined throughout the Legion, as well as the Sonic Cult not being presented so one dimensionally. I'm great with our Battleline being Infractors and Tormentors (as the old "basic" Noise Marines), though I'd appreciate if the rules and fluff brought up that they're still, as you say, Noise dilettantes. They should still be ambitious. 

 

Framing the Noise Marines as the heart, the soul, the apex of the Legion - a purity of sensory overload to which younger members of the Third aspire to.

 

(Also: reframe "The Song of Slaanesh" to be found in battle, like the original Music of the Apocalypse. Get rid of the idea of Noise Marines being too wrapped up in it to want to go fight, or to defend themselves from certain death. "Sir, this is a war game.")

 

//

 

Edit: as an example, a couple excerpts from Index Chaotica: Noise Marines:

 

"Noise Marines are best known in battle for the deadly amount of firepower they can pour forth. If armed with boltguns, they will seek to advance within range before opening up in a spray of explosive shells, reveling in each cry of pain issued from their victims. Noise Marines prefer to do their damage up close and personal – for this not only ensures the optimum chance of devastation, but also better allows them to reap the gloried sounds of their handiwork. The exquisite ripping of flesh mixed to the backbeat of the chugging and growling retorts of their bolters is a symphony of which Noise Marines never tire. Ever attentive to the detail of their bloody work, the Noise Marines are known to use modified bolt shells – some of which scream, shriek, or howl as they plough towards their victim, leaving behind a contrail of gaudy purple tracer. Squads firing in unison will work hard to adjust the sequence of shell types to achieve refinement to their boltgun choir, a point of peculiarity unappreciated by any save their own sick kind."

 

IMO, that's really cool lore. The next codex should include it, just replace every mention of 'Noise Marine' with 'Tormentor'.

 

"While this allows them to better savour the impact of their shots, it also leaves them prone to counter-attack. For followers of Slaanesh, this prospect is not without benefit. Their heightened senses and reaction time allow Noise Marines to strike down all but the most nimble of foes before they even get a chance to land their own blows. What is more, the Noise Marines delight not only in inflicting pain, but also in experiencing it. It is pure exhilaration to feel an Ork’s choppa cleaving into the meat of your body, and the ripples of agony that accompany a Hormagaunt’s slicing claws are a shudder-worthy delight to savour in their own right. Some of the Slaaneshii warriors opt for close combat weapons exclusively, enjoying the buzz of the chainsword and its shrill screams as it grates upon bone or armour.

 

"One such formation was that led by the infamous Noise Champion Volupus. A son of Chemos, Volupus went off to form his own warband: the Flickering Blades. These warriors strode into combat wielding lithe swords that sung a song of death with every swing. From out of their twisted armour stretched numerous writhing tongues, each mutant maw licking its lips in lewd anticipation of the blood-splattering of close combat."

 

Could be included in the fluff for Infractors, or even Flawless Blades. (Sadly, Volupus' Flickering Blades were killed off in 2023's Codex: World Eaters.)

 

//

 

As far as the Song of Slaanesh goes, I also often think back to 2007's Fulgrim. After the Isstvan III betrayal, Lucius gets taken by Eidolon for improvements (which the tabletop rules portray as the Sonic Shrieker upgrade). Subsequently, at the Isstvan V massacre, "The swordsman danced through the battle, his Terran blade carving a screaming, bloody path as he laughed in time with music only he could hear." 

 

Edited Sunday at 04:05 PM by LSM

[Rain]

I think that a lot of the confusion is in semantics and nomenclature. “Noise Marine” seems to have been used semi-interchangeably with “Slaaneshi CSM.” What were “Noise Marines with bolters” are now called Tormentors, and similarly for CCW’s and Infractors.

 

I think this confusion really started in 3.5 when the MoS would make CSM into “Noise Marines” for ease of reference, but did not actually change their loadouts, it merely allowed for the option of Noise weapons, and gave them warp scream. So, in 3.5, you could have a “Noise Marines” squad with, say, all BP+CCW and no noise weapons at all, but with the MoS. In other words, Infractors. You could, of course, also mix and match weapons within a squad which you cannot do now, but that’s largely a wider issue in nu-40k where options are removed of turned into separate units. 
 

Anyway, I really like the Fabius Bile trilogy’s  take on the EC, and its take on “true” Noise Marines versus just Slaanesh corrupted legionaries. I like the differences between how cults are treated between the big 4, it adds flavor and character. All WE are berzerkers and have the Nails, TS are a mixture of sorcerers and undead golems, and the EC are a mixture of egoistic junkies and noise-monks who are also junkies, but channel their addiction toward a religious cult. Kind of similar to a common interpretation of the actual Hashashin (“assassin”) cult. To me, it adds depth to the Legion, and allows for more theming in player armies by leaning into multiple sub-groups within the Legion.

 

All of that said, I still think it wound have been neat if the squad leaders of line squads could take screamer pistols and/or doom sirens as a nod to flirting with the noise cult. Also, I would love to get Noise terminators and/or Noise dreadnoughts. Even if it’s arguably a “Flanderization” (an overused term that I generally loathe) of the current form of the 3rd, it would allow for some amazing models, and a fun army build around a mix of melee and short range shooting.

 

Edit: On your point about all EC aspiring to be NM, I actually disagree. My read is that some/many EC are so deluded and self-absorbed, that they see themselves as above focusing on projecting the Song of Slaanesh into the physical world, or perhaps above even the direct worship of Slaanesh, as worship implies a being greater than the self. I love the self-delusion aspect of the EC, and thinking that one is above the Song, or even Slaanesh itself, is a great play on that. 

Edited Sunday at 05:22 PM by Rain

[LSM]

Yeah. It's why I've moved away from "Noise Marine" when making Legion-wide references, and switched to Sonic Cult. And 100%, "Noise Marine" and "Slaanesh-Marked Chaos Space Marine" were synonymous from 2nd until 6th in the rules. (Arguably, the 4th edition's Codex's Icons allowed a unit to be Marked by Slaanesh without being a Noise Marine, but that unit would lose the Mark if the Icon Bearer died. So technically you couldn't have a Slaanesh Marked Chaos Space Marine who wasn't a Character or Noise Marine until 6th.)

 

The early conflicts in sources seem to be down to "is a Noise Marine someone who uses a Sonic Weapon". Some writers seemed to think yes, others no, which creates a confused state. 

 

(But you literally have Codex: Chaos say that the Emperor's Children have become Noise Marines, and talk about the Emperor's Children in the designers' notes no differently than the other Cult Legions. And then those 3rd/4th edition sources saying both that "most" Emperor's Children became Noise Marines, while also saying that not all Emperor's Children became Noise Marines... it's inconsistent. One writer equating Noise Marines strictly with Sonic Weapons, while another does not.)

 

 When the accusation of "flanderizing" the Emperor's Children (by focussing on the Sonic Cult) comes up, I will generally riposte that I dislike the "flanderizing" of the Sonic Cult into something one note.

 

//

 

While I appreciate other avenues of worship, I'd like the Emperor's Children themselves to be focussed on the Sonic Cult.

 

There are many ways to worship Nurgle. The Purge worships Nurgle, the Death Guard worships Nurgle. The Purge are not the Death Guard.

 

There are many ways to worship Tzeentch. The Scourged worships Tzeentch, the Thousand Sons worship Tzeentch. The Scourged are not the Thousand Sons.

 

There are many ways to worship Khorne. The Blood Disciples worship Khorne, the World Eaters worship Khorne. The Blood Disciples are not the World Eaters.

 

There are many ways to worship Slaanesh. The Flawless Host worships Slaanesh, the Emperor's Children worship Slaanesh. I'd like it if The Flawless Host were not the Emperor's Children .

[Rain]

Sure. I don’t think that we really disagree, in practice. The EC are the most in need of more model support of all cult Legions, and that’s saying a lot. Of such hypothetical model support, I’d love for more sonic cult units. However, I like the “perfection seeking duelists” thing. I am currently (very slowly) building a Peerless Bladesmen army that leans into that “version” of the Legion, but I would still love sonic vehicles or Terminators.

 

As to the Flawless Host, IIRC they were introduced in the Gavdex in 4th (boo! Hiss!) as a name, color scheme, and brief line about how they have Emperor’s Children gene seed markers. This heavily implied that they were a warband/splinter of the EC Legion. They were later essentially retconned to be a traitor chapter. Anyway, as far as I’m concerned their “schtick” is just another aspect of the EC. Even back in 3.5, you could build a very effective melee army (in my opinion the strongest of the cults in melee against Meq and elite armies generally because of effective +1 I), and while Lucius had a Doom Siren, he was a duelist first and foremost.

[Gree]

On 11/16/2025 at 2:23 PM, LSM said:

Bikers... if we're about to get "Chaos Space Marine Helriders" (or what you will) with a new loadout/base size/etc taking their place, then it makes sense to hold back on Bikers for World Eaters and Emperor's Children. (And then add them after CSM's release.) Ditto for the Helbrute (or a planned 11th Sonic Dreadnought). If Defilers are not long for this world, then leaving them out also makes sense... I've got nothing for Forgefiends though. That's really the one that makes me think someone just wanted us to be a "quick/close/infantry" force.

 

Being slower base Movement than World Eaters is offset somewhat by Thrill Seekers.

 

 

 

I find it telling that with six detachments, not a single one is themed around the Noise Marines.

 

I can’t prove this, but I suspect that the game designers would have cut Noise Marines if they could have. So much of the long-range shooting was ruthlessly culled from the book. The World Eaters have better shooting.

 

17 hours ago, LSM said:

(The more "cerebral" pure, proud excess is the realm of the Flawless Host, in comparison.)

 

 

To be fair, the Flawless Host don't really have much lore to begin with.

Edited Sunday at 10:51 PM by Gree

[LSM]

22 hours ago, Rain said:

Sure. I don’t think that we really disagree, in practice. The EC are the most in need of more model support of all cult Legions, and that’s saying a lot. Of such hypothetical model support, I’d love for more sonic cult units. However, I like the “perfection seeking duelists” thing. I am currently (very slowly) building a Peerless Bladesmen army that leans into that “version” of the Legion, but I would still love sonic vehicles or Terminators.

 

As to the Flawless Host, IIRC they were introduced in the Gavdex in 4th (boo! Hiss!) as a name, color scheme, and brief line about how they have Emperor’s Children gene seed markers. This heavily implied that they were a warband/splinter of the EC Legion. They were later essentially retconned to be a traitor chapter. Anyway, as far as I’m concerned their “schtick” is just another aspect of the EC. Even back in 3.5, you could build a very effective melee army (in my opinion the strongest of the cults in melee against Meq and elite armies generally because of effective +1 I), and while Lucius had a Doom Siren, he was a duelist first and foremost.

 

I guess my thinking is that I don't consider being in the "Sonic Cult" to preclude one from being a "perfection seeking duellist". 

 

Lucius' original lore included being the most accomplished of the pre-Heresy Legion's Lord Commanders in the realm of assault actions. He had completely devoted himself to them, as opposed to your Eidolon types (who "...dedicated himself to mastering all aspects of warfare... [fighting] equally well in sieges, holding actions, rapid strikes and gruelling campaigns, never displaying any inexperience or inefficiency no matter what was demanded..." per Index Astartes). Lucius was wreathed in the Armour of Shrieking Souls (which counted as a Doom Siren, as he delighted in being able to "discharge the cacophony generated by the tormented essences trapped within"; and gave him a 4++). He also had Warp Scream (the thing which in 2002, for me, defines a Noise Marine, in the same way as 1991-96's Psychic Cacophony ability).

 

Lucius was a "perfection seeking duellist", who was a member of the "Sonic Cult"/was a Noise Marine (of the time). 

 

Looking to the Horus Heresy, we also see him evolve in this direction. In the first three books he's just a "perfection seeking duellist", and then in Fulgrim - after his betrayal of the loyalists on Isstvan III - Eidolon takes him down to the lab for improvement. Next we see him is during the massacre on Isstvan V, where he's laughing as he kills in time to music only he can hear. Possessed-Fulgrim then pawns-off the Blade of the Laer onto him. (By the time we see him again in The Reflection, Crack'd he's repainted his armour to be more luxurious and pleasing, decorated with "madly screaming faces stretched beyond all recognition" - eschewing the "drab hues and pedestrian ornamentation" of the pre-Heresy Legion.)

 

Rules wise, he has the option of taking the Blade of the Laer (or not) and taking Sonic Shriekers (or not). If one were to play narratively:

• Up to and including Isstvan III: give him neither.
• From after Isstvan III to Isstvan V: give him Sonic Shriekers.
• After Isstvan V: give him Sonic Shriekers and the Blade of the Laer.

And in the 2025 Codex lore, Lucius has a little subsection on how he fights: 'With Shriek, Lash, and Blade'. "In battle the faces [of his armour] contort and scream, emitting a psychosonic torrent that can shred flesh and shatter minds. While foes' senses are battered by his armour's empyric assault, Lucius weaves deadly arcs with his sword and living whip." 

 

While it doesn't show in the rules,* I consider him to still be part of the Sonic Cult, fluff-wise.

 

Or Lord Xantine, from Renegades: Lord of Excess. Prides himself on being a preeminent duellist, when disarmed opens his throat impossibly wide and belts out a wall of sound.

 

Or Egil Galerius, from Khârn: Eater of Worlds. A Palatine Blade of most noble bearing, when a Berzerker seems to get the best of him, roaring over him in triumph, the lower half of Galerius' face peels open like a flower, his jaw splits in two, and he unleashes a devastating scream that cracks both the Berzerkers armour and bones, pulps his internal organs, and deafens every other World Eater nearby.

 

Or Ravasch Cario, from The Path of Heaven. A Prefector of the Palatine Blades who refuses the Sonic Cult and decries that "...the disinterested pursuit of martial perfection... once shared universally by the Legion, had been changed into the pursuit of unbridled excess...", and in the end chooses to be struck down in order to remain "Unsullied".

 

Or Vocipheron, from Eidolon: The Auric Hammer. A leader of an assault company chosen for their martial skill and freedom from the "wider taint of the Legion", who admits upfront that he could never best the Luciuses and Cyriuses of the Legion, but who over the course of the story learns to enjoy the lunatic song of Slaanesh.

 

All these perfection seeking duellists do not have their stories worsened by the Sonic Cult being at the heart of the Emperor's Children.

 

//

 

Yeah, in the 2007 Codex (written by Gav Thorpe and Alessio Cavatore - who most, including me, have quite a fondness for) the Flawless Host are mostly just a (wicked rad) paint scheme, with autopsy notes of heavy combat drug use and EC gene-seed markers. (Possibly they were original creation of 'Eavy Metal painter Neil Langdown, as his Flawless Host Chaos Lord is highlighted in the Codex's gallery on a page with Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus, Khârn, and Bile. Heady company.) 

 

The 2012 Codex then expands that: The Shining Blades were a Chapter with a gene-seed free from taint, and an unshakable faith in their own abilities thanks to their rigid mental training. They were so successful in battle that they developed a belief that it was impossible for them to fail - a delusional pride which led them to attack any who questioned their magnificence. (Leading to them turning traitor in M34; which, considering that they're still going strong in M42, is a real success story.) Renaming themselves the Flawless Host, they believe themselves to be the true embodiment of justice and purity.

 

The same Codex presents the Emperor's Children thusly: slaves to every excess that heart or mind can conceive, its warriors are so inured to common sensations that only the most intense stimulation can begin to satisfy. Corrupt and depraved beyond comprehension, they seek the battlefield to ride new highs of experience; a thrill and aphrodisiac, screaming in ecstasy with every kill to add to the clamour. Their distorted notions of beauty cause them to overwork every bolter, chainsword, and suit of armour into the most extravagant shapes and colours imaginable, and many make use of obscene sonic weaponry.

 

//

 

I have a little squad of Warpflamer Rubrics that I made to ally in to my CSM army. They use leftover Raptor bodies (the Jump Packs taken for my Khorne Bezererer+Nemesis Claw Raptors and Warp Talons), Legionary bits (including various flamers that were collecting dust), and leftover Tzaangor shields and horns. 

 

I'm very fond of what I managed to create (though not enough to put more than primer on them, apparently. *ahem*). The Raptor bodies give them a "floaty" wizard vibe, the MkIV-ish CSM helmets with Tzaangor horns added have an ~Ahriman-ish look (who was sculpted before the nemes-helmets became ubiquitous), and the AoS Tzeentch shields provide a natural justification for the 5++ of a Rubric Marine.

 

They are very Tzeentchy. They are not very Thousand Sons. I like that.

 

//

 

*Some argue it's why he has Fights First when not Leading a unit, but if that's the case the ability granting that should have been called 'Armour of Shrieking Souls' instead of 'Duellist's Hubris'.

 

Edited Monday at 06:02 PM by LSM

[Rain]

I think our only disagreement (if any) is about what constitutes being “in the sonic cult.” I am all for many EC having speakers, distended mouths for warp scream, doom sirens, etc., and indeed many of the models do. The line infantry have speakerlike grilles on legs and backpacks, there are speakermouth heads, etc.

 

I just like the Fabius Bile trilogy idea that “true” Noise Marines are a breed apart that not only use noise as a weapon and/or form of stimulus, but worship the Song of Slaanesh as an expression or form of their god. That doesn’t preclude other EC that are not explicitly Noise Marines from also using noise weapons or warp scream, but I like the distinction between those that use such weapons for pure self-gratification versus those that use them as a kind of religious sacrament. Such “true” Noise Marines cease being “perfection seeking duelists” because their religious obsession with noise/the SoS is so singular.

[LSM]

Yep yep.

 

I really like the concept of the Noise Marines in the Fabius Bile books (minus their reluctance to leave their garden and join battle - the battlefield should be the church in which they preach, not something to be enticed to), I just wish that Reynolds had called them something else. Disharmonists, maybe? Choirmasters? Y'know.

 

But that's just a name, and I'm fine with it if the Noise Marines are a Havoc unit (while the Plague Marines are Battleline, the Khorne Berzerkers are Battleline, the Tzeentchian Sorcerers...'s Rubricae are Battleline). Death Guard successfully (IMO) explore "the Plague Marine army" concept, World Eaters and Thousand Sons less well (IMO). Even if Noise Marines are not the common footsoldier, I'd still like the Emperor's Children at-large to be defined by them.

 

Like: if World Eaters were to get a unit of "Teeth of Khorne" Havocs (which I'd like to see), I'd still want them to have the Butcher's Nails. I'd want them to still be Khorne Berzerkers, and for the sculptors and rules writers to come up with some interesting way to portray the concept of a Khorne Berzerker with heavy weaponry. (I like the BS4+/Rapid Fire idea of the recent Codex in general - it's a fun way to have the fluff inform the rules.) And their heavy weaponry should be tailored to the World Eaters - Heavy Bolters, sure, but make the alternative options Plasma Cannons and Heavy Flamers (or Plasma Burners), etc. Don't just make them Havocs with bunny ears - or worse, say that "World Eaters will make use of allied non-Berzerker heavy weapons teams to crack open hard targets, so that the Berzerkers can get in." No - this is the Berzerker army. 

 

Or: if Thousand Sons got a Helbrute equivalent, I'd prefer it to be a Sorcerer/Rubricae Dreadnought. The fudge that the Thousand Sons take other Space Marines and turn them into Helbrutes is a nice way to justify the big fleshy model in an army that is iconically defined by ranks of Marines that are suits empty save for psychic dust, but... it is a fudge. A massively mutated Helbrute is very Tzeentchy, but it's off-brand for the Thousand Sons.

 

And I imagine many people fell in love with the pre-Heresy Emperor's Children, or the 12th Millennial of the Fabius Bile series, and want a 40k Emperor's Children in that mould. I fell in love first with Noise Marines, and then with the 2001 Index Astartes lore of the Emperor's Children, and then the 2002 Codex portrayal. I fell in love with the Emperor's Children because they were "the Noise Marine army".

 

In Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness there is mention of the World Eater's colour scheme. Pre-Heresy, they wore white and blue. Post-Heresy, Khorne's red and black, though individuals often could still be spotted with old pieces of white or blue armour, and the right gauntlet was always red in honour of Khorne. Competition to be the first into battle is fierce amongst warbands, and this has been formalised into the Company of the Chosen - those with the most extreme devotion - who wear, instead, armour of red and brass.

 

So there is precedent for going back with the World Eaters; to them having Khorne Berzerkers as smaller elite "Chosen" units, while the bulk of the Legion is made up of "World Eater Tactical/Assault Squads".

 

Maybe if there had been a popular novel series (and subsequent table top game) about the Great Crusade, people would be less enamoured by the change that Legion Master Lhorke and the Warhounds underwent after becoming the World Eaters and the mass implantation of the 'Nails. Or Captain Garro and the Dusk Raiders going from the bloody right hand of the Emperor to the tough, chemical weapon infantrymen of the Death Guard; or Ahriman and the original Terran Thousand Sons' suffering under the flesh change and burgeoning psychic power, before the Magnus' foolish pursuit of sorcery saved/damned the Legion.

 

The Emperor's Children's "big shift" happened during the Heresy. The other three Cult Legions may have fallen to the gods then, but they were already proto-Berzerkers, proto-Plague Marines, and Sorcerers/proto-Rubricae (the Sekhmet specifically, and then arguably the flesh change setting up the impetus for the Rubric). The Sonic Cult is only born on the eve of the Heresy. Depending on the source, it either is presented on the path of taking over the Legion completely (The Path of Heaven, Eidolon: The Auric Hammer, etc.) or having remained a minor subset (The Fabius Bile series).

 

//

 

It might also be worth noting: Ramos and his Noise Marines of the 12th are... kind of weirdos?

 

‘We have not been Legion for a long time, prefect. We are something more, now, and our concerns are greater than bloodshed. War is a child’s song. We sing of greater things, and are sung to, and with every note the song grows ever more perfect. What can you offer us, equal to that?

 

"...We have heard the whispers of your plotting, through the wraithbone. You want the ship. But we are the ship. And we do not care who struts upon the command deck, issuing useless orders. The Vesalius goes where it wills, and our song continues uninterrupted. The Chief Apothecary knows this. And so he does not waste time assuring himself of our loyalty. We are loyal only to the song. Only to the singer. We -’

 

"War is a child's song" should not be something that an average Noise Marine says. It's cool for a character in a story to be weird like that; it is too radical a departure from the core conceit for me, though, to be common. This is a war game. ("The Singer" references Key - Fabius Bile's weird wraithbone-Eldar-ship thing.)

 

Eidolon, I think, must be considered a Noise Marine (First of the Kakophoni, Master of the Eternal Song) and he's nothing like Ramos. In Manflayer we see some other Noise Marines, like our poor departed Volupus (and his Flickering Blades, though they - and their devotion to melee combat - go unmentioned) and Lord Caradistros and his Thirsting Brethren warband. Bile looks down upon them as "lesser" Noise Marines, but he still calls them Noise Marines.

 

This is not to mention various other Orchestrators that we see in the 30k books, like Til Plegua of Eidolon's own Kakophoni, or the eloquent, scheming Azael Konenos:

 

“...Cario came to stand before Eidolon, and Konenos watched him all the way. The blademaster's bearing was immaculate, his poise impeccable, but the absence of flesh-improvement was disappointing. It spoke of a lack of ambition..."

 

“...[To Von Kalda; Equerry to Eidolon:] 'You learned all this from Fabius?'

“...'He is not the only fleshweaver in the Legion.'

“Konenos flashed him a rictus-like grin. Free of his helm the Orchestrator's throat and face were a great tumescent mass of sound chambers and emitters. Hit eyes gleamed, as pink as a rat's, out of the cranial folds of glistening skin. 'No, he is not...'

“Konenos looked up... 'There is a direction of travel... A decision made. We will better ourselves. We will experience all there is to experience. We suffer for that decision, and others will suffer for it.'

“...'I would have that direction of travel reinforced. I would not have any regrets, when the time comes for reckoning. You do not only twist flesh, brother...'

“...'There are those, they tell me, who are not yet committed to enlightenment. They cling to older disciplines. They do not see the benefits of improvement...”

 

//

 

I do really like the below passage from Clonelord, and it speaks to what you say about the Song of Slaanesh being a really cool concept. (And it having "priests", as it were.) 

 

"The wraithbone within them reverberated in sympathy with that growing through the hull, creating an exquisite feedback loop. The song never ceased, continually running through the solidified warp energy, filling the Kakophoni with its echoes. Around and around it went, redoubling itself with every circuit. The song perfected itself with every new note, becoming more what it must be.

 

"Soon, he and his brothers might even join with it, as their Choirmaster, Elian, had, so many centuries ago. He had sung them a path to the perfidious eldar, a path they still followed even now. Elian had been consumed by the song, eaten from inside out by the power of it. The ur-song. The Shattersong. The song that could crack a universe, or save it. A song of birth and death.

 

"Slaanesh’s song, begun on the day of the Dark Prince’s conception, and sung continuously by select choirs, ever since. The aeldari had begun the song, and their ghosts still sang it, in the depths of the webway. But Ramos and his brothers had their parts as well. They added their voices to those of the dead, the lost and the damned, throughout the continuum of time. A universal choir, all singing in harmony with one another across the vast gulfs of existence, backwards and forwards. Singing the Dark Prince into existence at the beginning. Singing to ensure that he had always existed, and would always exist, at the end. They sang so that the sun might rise, and always have risen."

 

Really cool. But... should not (IMO) be the one note of the Sonic Cult.

 

//

 

I'll also mention that I quickly looked over The Masters, Bidding (from 2012) - a short story/novella I highly recommend to CSM fans in general - to see if Emmesh-Aiye was described as a Noise Marine, and... kind of. (Or at least he's not not noted as one, and he kills with "his warp-screams and the venom of his finger-quills"). There is also mention of "the ethereal song of Slaanesh" being used by him to lull a unit of Night Lords into trance with a blanket of hypnotic noise, and "our mistress's songs" being used to disrupt Typhus' Destroyer Hive.

 

If "Noise Marine" means Sonic Blaster, then Emmesh-Aiye is not a Noise Marine. But he's definitely part of what I consider to be the Sonic Cult. (And the rest of his warband are mentioned to be "Noise Marine artillerists", Raptors, and Daemonettes.)

 

It's also perhaps worth noting that Typhus' forces are described as being partially composed of foot soldiers "with no Mark from their master" (who are overcome by the power of Slaanesh). I thought it interesting that a 6th edition-era story portrayed the Death Guard of Typhus as not being entirely Plague Marines.

Edited 13 hours ago by LSM