3.0: failed or not?

[Brother Sutek]

14 hours ago, Griefbringer said:

Grognard (veteran) players can be a valid audience for a game, but then the managers and designers also need to understand what makes (or does not make) a ruleset attractive to such audience. And it seems that a lot of grognards appreciate certain stability of the ruleset. Thus, frequent edition cycles and changes for the sake of changes tend to be anathema to them, and HH 3.0 seems to have burned a lot of bridges in this sense. On the other hand, HH 3.0 also re-introduced the RT-style psychological stats (Ld, Cl, Int, WP), which might be seen as a some sort of attempt to cater to the older audience (though I am not aware of too many people missing those stats in the intervening years). So maybe the game is seen at some level on company side as a grognard game, thus justifying separate rules, but at the same time the interests of that audience on the rules side are less well understood.

I can definitely agree that the longer edition cycle made me happy. As for the return of even more characteristics... I only liked them in Necromunda.  I haven't played 3rd so I can't speak from experience but I can say from playing 2nd edition 40k that the more minutiae you add the longer and more complicated the game. This is only aggravated by the edition churn if you don't get to play often.  This isn't GWs concern but I'm lucky to play once a month,  that means at best 12 games a year and 36 in the game life cycle. This means nothing to them and I honestly get that but adding more things to remember doesn't endear it to my group who don't play enough to make it second nature. Having it based off 7th edition,  that we had all played for years made the game intuitive and popular as they cleaned up a lot of the 7th edition issues.

[Griefbringer]

Besides being annoying to many grognards, I think a rapid edition change is also detrimental for new wargamers, who are not used to learning new rules in the first place. Having a revised rules set dropping soon after you have learned a previous one may be a frustrating experience. That said, somewhere in the middle there is also a portion of moderately experienced gamers who enjoy regular rules updates that prevent game from "going stale" in their view.

 

As for sales peaks on new edition launch (also on other things than new rulebooks themselves), I am left to wonder if this is partially an artificial effect of the edition cycle itself. If it is generally known that a ruleset has an edition cycle of X years, then potential new players are less likely to get invested in the last 6-12 months, choosing instead to postpone their purchases (to avoid need to re-purchase and re-learn the rules). Thus you would get a reduction in sales towards the end of an edition life cycle, as potential players enter into a waiting mode, and an increase in sales after the release as people move from the waiting mode to purchase mode. This kind of peak may look attractive in sales statistics, but part of it would be just an issue of pushing customers to post-pone part of their purchases.

 

That said, a new edition release (and especially new shiny starter boxes) may also attract interest from people who were not particularly interested beforehand.

[Nagashsnee]

I personally both do and have noticed that people will avoid buying rules near the end of a edition. But minis are not really affected, unless its really old stuff that might get the can.

 

But this is 100% on GW who put out expensive books with a self life of in some cases months.  Especially when they know the next ed is not compatible with the product.  Most recently it was for 40k and the Iron Warriors/Mechanicum book. i bought the mech minis, but paying what they are asking for the books when WE KNOW they are on a very short timer is a no go. 

 

Now with the old FW black books and imperial army the lore and quality was good enough to justify getting them in any case. But 30k and 40k books have for years not been to a quality where i would want to collect them.  Anyone i know who seriously invested in 2 ed 30k feels burned by the rapid ed change, and learned their lesson, and the lore nerds havent been happy with 30k books since Alan passed and quality fell off a cliff.

 

 

Edited September 24 by Nagashsnee

[Brother Sutek]

1 hour ago, Nagashsnee said:

I personally both do and have noticed that people will avoid buying rules near the end of a edition. But minis are not really affected, unless its really old stuff that might get the can.

 

But this is 100% on GW who put out expensive books with a self life of in some cases months.  Especially when they know the next ed is not compatible with the product.  Most recently it was for 40k and the Iron Warriors/Mechanicum book. i bought the mech minis, but paying what they are asking for the books when WE KNOW they are on a very short timer is a no go. 

 

Now with the old FW black books and imperial army the lore and quality was good enough to justify getting them in any case. But 30k and 40k books have for years not been to a quality where i would want to collect them.  Anyone i know who seriously invested in 2 ed 30k feels burned by the rapid ed change, and learned their lesson, and the lore nerds havent been happy with 30k books since Alan passed and quality fell off a cliff.

 

 

Between cost and value and the fact that when younger I was able to play more,  I used to buy all the army books. I didn't play them all but wanted to own them for the fluff and to know the rules. I haven't done that in decades. Same for fantasy,  I used to buy all the books again for the fluff if nothing else. Now I buy nothing as the churn is ridiculous and who knows how long it will be worth the price. I hate being salty but my hobby money is tighter and the value, as I see it, is less.

[Griefbringer]

1 hour ago, Nagashsnee said:

I personally both do and have noticed that people will avoid buying rules near the end of a edition. But minis are not really affected, unless its really old stuff that might get the can.

 

Figure purchases by established gamers may not be affected much by the phase of edition cycle. However, if prospective new player opts to wait until the new edition release, then likely that person will also postpone figure purchases until they have the new rules at hand (though I have also heard of cases where people get first the models and then the rules). That said, total newbies may also be unaware of the edition cycle and its effects, and thus not discouraged by the phase (though they may end up disappointed a few months later).

 

As for GW supplements with short life spans, those have been around since late 1990's. The original Codex Sisters of Battle (1997), Codex Assassins (1997) and Warhammer Armies Vampire Counts (1999) books had shelf lives of 10-16 months before the next game edition release (that was no longer compatible with them). The original Space Marine (1989) epic game had a shelf life of two years before being replaced with 2nd edition rules, though that rules replacement lasted for almost six years (and was later on re-born in the form of the unofficial NetEpic rules).

[Ahzek451]

On 9/24/2026 at 9:39 AM, Brother Sutek said:

Between cost and value and the fact that when younger I was able to play more,  I used to buy all the army books. I didn't play them all but wanted to own them for the fluff and to know the rules. I haven't done that in decades. Same for fantasy,  I used to buy all the books again for the fluff if nothing else. Now I buy nothing as the churn is ridiculous and who knows how long it will be worth the price. I hate being salty but my hobby money is tighter and the value, as I see it, is less.

I think the vast majority of folk that have spend time in this hobby fall into this(I am one too). And so you would think GW would be seeing some sort of affect from this. As ever, nuance is needed, but this just goes to show their leaking bucket business model is "working". Quotes because I don't think it is sustainable, give it time. The leaking bucket being an analogy for their business model of focusing on constantly recruiting new customers, and less focus on retaining them. They got their money from the those already invested and can stand to lose them so long as the bucket keeps getting filled. The age old argument of "graph go up so GW must be doing good" being a constant claim that GW is indeed successful. 
 

 

One bucket fills with money, the other empties with good will. 

Edited September 26 by Ahzek451

[Hfran Morkai]

On 9/24/2026 at 2:08 PM, Nagashsnee said:

I personally both do and have noticed that people will avoid buying rules near the end of a edition. But minis are not really affected, unless its really old stuff that might get the can.

 

 

 

And you'll undoubtedly get some people who've no interest in playing the new edition still buying the new starter boxes for their current projects, even if they're previous editions as the savings are often very good and the first opportunity to grab stuff.

[Griefbringer]

6 hours ago, Hfran Morkai said:

And you'll undoubtedly get some people who've no interest in playing the new edition still buying the new starter boxes for their current projects, even if they're previous editions as the savings are often very good and the first opportunity to grab stuff.

 

No doubt, and shiny big boxes of new stuff (at discounted price) will always attract people. However, obtaining this effect does not necessarily require putting out a new edition - similar interest can also be obtained with "battle group" style boxes full of interesting new stuff. In the last three years, there have been several such battle groups for HH (at least Mk 3 and 4 marines, Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum), though those boxes may not have provided quite the same amount of models (and discount) as the starter boxed sets.

 

 The contents of the Saturnine boxed set could also have been released separately as a battle group box, instead of needing to couple them with a new edition of rulebook. The Saturnine set contents in my view leave a bit to be desired as a generic starter set (especially when it comes to including a static sentry gun platform instead of something mobile), though looking at the studio painted figures there is a serious attempt at narrative angle for them - Salamanders assaulting dug-in Iron Warriors on Isstvan V is rather iconic theme when it comes to heresy (unfortunately the Saturnine terminators and dreadnought do not give me such iconic vibes).

[Nagashsnee]

Over on the BL section there is talk about HH, and i opened the list of 30k books (wargame not bl) by edition.  

 

First edition had a true feeling of momentum to it lore and book wise that died with the edition (or most likely Alan), its not perfect but you start early heresy and progress, eventually going here and there to cover all your legions but there is a feeling of moving along a path FORWARD. 

 

3 ed opening on the dropsite massacre, and its first book being PART ONE of said massacre, followed by books on prospero and signus, plus non event focus books like saturn and skitarii utterly fail for me at least to grow any kind of momentum of excitement for future books. Sure it may be something we have never seen before, but equal chance its Thramas version 2 part 1. 

 

1ed gave the impression of a vission, of a plan, sure models affected the books but models were also CLEARLY made in a order that the vision and plan dictated. It created a real feeling of progression and build up. Now its just release ping ball.

 

And  i am NOT SAYING go for the siege, but it would be nice each book was a step in that direction, instead we are mostly going backwards? Like for custodes, there is a whole GALAXY out there, was prospero and signus cluster again vs just making up some new stories and places and battles really the best choice? What does it add? Even the starter box, it could have just as easily been Beta Garmon and you have saturnine armor throw in because both sides know the end is near and are using anything and everything. What did going back to istvaan add to anything? The BL book could still have been released it wouldnt change anything. 

 

But looking at 1 ed black books on lexicanum set up in a line, vs 2 ed and 3 ed books.  The total difference in vision and focus is crystal clear.  And i think it carries on to every part of the edition.  No real vision for what 3rd was suppose to be, no focus on what they want to achieve. Much more of a new edition time write some books for THESE minis chaps feeling. 

Edited September 28 by Nagashsnee

[Griefbringer]

The present 48 page "journal" format used for supplements for many of the current games is certainly rather limiting, though potentially quite quick to crank out.

 

Then there is the issue of needing to cram both gaming rules and background material to the same book, leading it to be withdrawn from sale the moment a core rules change makes it no longer compatible. Edition independent books containing only background material could be a possibility, and a product that could be kept on the shelf in the long term without needing to worry about edition churn - though would they sell enough without any rules content? And in the current organisational compartmentalisation, who would be responsible for producing them?

[Antarius]

On 9/25/2026 at 11:41 PM, Ahzek451 said:

I think the vast majority of folk that have spend time in this hobby fall into this(I am one too). And so you would think GW would be seeing some sort of affect from this. As ever, nuance is needed, but this just goes to show their leaking bucket business model is "working". Quotes because I don't think it is sustainable, give it time. The leaking bucket being an analogy for their business model of focusing on constantly recruiting new customers, and less focus on retaining them. They got their money from the those already invested and can stand to lose them so long as the bucket keeps getting filled. The age old argument of "graph go up so GW must be doing good" being a constant claim that GW is indeed successful. 
 

 

One bucket fills with money, the other empties with good will. 

On the one hand, I feel the same. I also used to buy almost all the books and now I just... don't.
On the other hand, I think age is also a factor, as much as it doesn't feel good to admit it. Not just physical age, but age "in the hobby" and how that colours our perception. I think we tend to think of ourselves as the average hobbyist, partly because we see everything from our own point of view, but also because our friends tend to be at around the same place in their hobby journey as ourselves and so the people we compare ourselves with are more similar to ourselves than the actual average hobbyist may be.

Where am I going with all this? Good question. The point, such as it is, is that we tend to miss both how the average hobbyist approaches the hobby and how it feels to them, as well as how the hobby as a whole has aged along with us. Some of the fatigue we feel may not be felt by newer hobbyists, but also, GW may actually be retaining other customers than us just as long as they retained us, even if we, personally are at point where we're no longer as excited about the products being put out (which, I hasten to add, is not the same as having lost one's passion for the hobby!). So I don't necessarily think that most customers are losing goodwill towards GW (but I don't know, of course).

That being said, I do think and hope that 3rd is seen as a failure and that it will make them change course on the HH line.

[SvenIronhand]

I honestly think it's privilege talking if ya'll are buying all the books, and not just the ones for your army. Sorry to be harsh, but it is what it is.  

[Nagashsnee]

20 hours ago, SvenIronhand said:

I honestly think it's privilege talking if ya'll are buying all the books, and not just the ones for your army. Sorry to be harsh, but it is what it is.  

 

If you think buying 9 black books over 8 years is privilege then sorry to be harsh but you dont know what privilege is. 

Second ed was what 5 books over 4 years. 

 

No one is talking about rule books (your red book types). But sourcebooks. If you like the lore your kinda supose to buy them all. 

 

But as we are literally talking about how 3rd ed makes it NOT WORTH buying them for a variety of reasons i wont go into 3rd. As with 7ish books in 2 years it is bad, tho they are hardly books with some being iirc under 50 pages.  We are agin LITERALLY talking about how its not worth doing anymore.

 

But even then privilege is not a term i would use when talking about buying books about a niche hobby,  Its either a privilege just to be involved in warhammer (which on a global scale it probably is) or you are a normal person who recongnises who this hobby is aimed at on a global social-economic level. At which point lmao. 

 

It use to be AFFORDABLE to buy every book, and they were on a level where it was worth it. The fact that its no longer worth the money or effort is what we are talking about. 

 

I cannot imagine liking the HH lore and game and not getting the original black books during first ed. True if you joined late it was a investment to do in  one go...but getting say a book every month or two for a year is to most adults not ammount to worry about.

Edited October 1 by Nagashsnee

[Brother Sutek]

8 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

 

If you think buying 9 black books over 8 years is privilege then sorry to be harsh but you dont know what privilege is. 

Second ed was what 5 books over 4 years. 

 

No one is talking about rule books (your red book types). But sourcebooks. If you like the lore your kinda supose to buy them all. 

 

But as we are literally talking about how 3rd ed makes it NOT WORTH buying them for a variety of reasons i wont go into 3rd. As with 7ish books in 2 years it is bad, tho they are hardly books with some being iirc under 50 pages.  We are agin LITERALLY talking about how its not worth doing anymore.

 

But even then privilege is not a term i would use when talking about buying books about a niche hobby,  Its either a privilege just to be involved in warhammer (which on a global scale it probably is) or you are a normal person who recongnises who this hobby is aimed at on a global social-economic level. At which point lmao. 

 

It use to be AFFORDABLE to buy every book, and they were on a level where it was worth it. The fact that its no longer worth the money or effort is what we are talking about. 

 

I cannot imagine liking the HH lore and game and not getting the original black books during first ed. True if you joined late it was a investment to do in  one go...but getting say a book every month or two for a year is to most adults not ammount to worry about.

It was affordable to grab the books and they weren't made worthless a few months in due to edition churn. This whole hobby is "privilege " and none of us know how good or bad other people have it. One of the guys I used to gsme with had money, real money. He didn't want to paint or build just play. He cared nothing for the fluff or anything but rules and playing. He was a great guy and he knew his rules inside and out but every game was preparation for a tournament.  He would buy the army and have it built and painted, I did a few armies for him. He would play for as long as that army was the best then sell it and buy the next best thing. He paid me in one of the old armies a few times to build and paint an new army. I will never get that privilege again as he got bored of GW nonsense and went to play airsoft and to travel more. Me buying a couple $20 books every couple of months isn't on that level and I don't know many people who could do what John did.

[Marshal Rohr]

On 9/30/2026 at 10:47 AM, SvenIronhand said:

I honestly think it's privilege talking if ya'll are buying all the books, and not just the ones for your army. Sorry to be harsh, but it is what it is.  

If it was privilege to have all the lore there would be socioeconomic and legislative pressures preventing those without the books from availing themselves of the same spaces and systems as those of us with the books, but unfortunately all of the non-book people have achieved full equity in the hobby space. 

[sarabando]

ive bought 1 journal and flicked through several and i simply cannot justify even their discounted price for what they are. 

my biggest gripe is that there is no effort to show these units that they want us to kitbash. 

Just show us your interpretation of these characters etc its not a huge ask imo. 

[Scribe]

On 9/30/2026 at 8:47 AM, SvenIronhand said:

I honestly think it's privilege talking if ya'll are buying all the books, and not just the ones for your army. Sorry to be harsh, but it is what it is.  

 

My man, playing these games is privilege, this :cuss:s expensive.

[SvenIronhand]

7 hours ago, Scribe said:

My man, playing these games is privilege, this :cuss:s expensive.

I already buy secondhand or at FLGS for the most part.

[Pacific81]

Going on @Griefbringer and @Captain Idaho discussion above about pulling Heresy back into 40k rules, remember this is where the game came from, as effectively an expansion to 40k. 

 

I wouldn't like it to happen for the sake of the community, but now that previously FW game development has been pulled into GW, 'accounts guy' (who is more powerful than the Emperor, Chaos Gods and Tyranids combined) might look at the 40k rulebook & 30k rulebook and say "what is the difference between these again?"

Especially if the 3.0 Saturnine boxes have not sold on the same level as 2.0.

[Ahzek451]

On 9/30/2026 at 1:51 AM, Antarius said:

 I think we tend to think of ourselves as the average hobbyist, partly because we see everything from our own point of view,

Well that's the thing, I am all too aware of this line of thinking and I like to think I go out of my way to keep myself in check by peeking around different groups of warhammer interests. And I won't sit here and say I know the overall temp, there are just too many data points to keep track of, and this hobby in general has some pretty interesting results.

As you eluded to, it does seem that generally speaking, older player groups have a tendency to lean toward being fed up with GW. A lot of these being private groups. And yet...and this is where it gets interesting...I'll walk into a local GW store and find a somewhat consistent group of gamers that just seem to be happy with whatever GW has to offer. Another GW store will represent the leaking bucket analogy completely as over the course of months I almost never see the same people in the shop(verified with the store manager). Walk into an FLGS store and find a group that is fairly mixed, walk into another and find one that hates 40k but loves heresy, or sigmar, or old world. And on and on and on. Frankly its all over the map in a lot of cases. My general assessment of things is a combination of keeping tabs on social media(filtering the where and when I can), living in a state where I visit and drop by 3 GW stores within driving distance of my home, many FLGS stores, an annual large gaming convention, and I have moved across the U.S. a "few" times and keep in touch with a few groups across the country. I just don't won't have the data points for private groups not found at a store (in homes) outside of the few I personally know.  I just don't have the same level for the rest of the world. I have a personal interest in having a wide net of seeing how the hobby/game is doing outside of my personal bubble. Simply because it just...interests me. 

I obviously don't know how it's always going for everyone, but I like to think I have put myself in unique position that I come from a place that is anything but a secluded sample size. But I've found some things to be true. And yes...there is a reason why opinions are so scattershot on many things. I've watched the tournament community grow and grab GW's attention in the early 2000's and influence how they run there business, a world truly unto itself. I suppose that is both a drawback and a benefit to how things are, in that there is enough options to cater to many groups, be it a hobbyist, painter, competitive player, casual gamer, etc. But in doing so, you create all these bubbles of different groups and thoughts and it makes it difficult for GW to pin down what is most important to chase(sometimes). And then throw in social media influence(and if you care or not care to include culture war stuff), it just becomes the wild wild west. Also add that GW has done an excellent job marketing itself as "premium". It becomes difficult to throw out broad sweeping claims, because when you have multiple Fraetors argue over how things are...the truth is they are both wrong and both right most of the time. 

But just on occasion....there are some overwhelming data points that cannot be ignored. And I agree, based on what I have seen I would hazard a good guess that GW will be seeing 3.0 as.....well...not very good. 

Edited October 9 by Dr_Ruminahui
Removed swear dodge

[Ahzek451]

On 9/30/2026 at 10:47 AM, SvenIronhand said:

I honestly think it's privilege talking if ya'll are buying all the books, and not just the ones for your army. Sorry to be harsh, but it is what it is.  

 

[jaxom]

I don’t have much to add; my view is the increase in complexity did not bring me a commensurate increase in fun. Not that no fun was added, just I want more fun for the level of complexity added.

[Marshal Rohr]

Video game devs do that all the time. I don’t know why it keeps happening but I have my suspicions. 

[Gorgoff]

On 10/1/2026 at 10:57 PM, Brother Sutek said:

[Snip]

on that level and I don't know many people who could do what John did.

Be honest now:

Was it John Cena?

On 10/10/2026 at 1:50 AM, Marshal Rohr said:

Video game devs do that all the time. I don’t know why it keeps happening but I have my suspicions. 

Hanlon’s Razor

At least if we talk about GW.

 

[Brother Sutek]

I couldn't see him so it just might have been!