Grotmas BA Detachment

[Tacitus]

17 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

You are looking at them the wrong way around. Whether you are fighting or shooting, half of them CAN help you. I treat them like a squad of super-Intercessors and they do surprisingly well. For the extra 25 points you get 60% more wounds, -1 to Wound against incoming attacks, same OC and some decent shooting and melee. The MC Heavy bolter with 3D and Sustained too can be surprisingly tasty.

 

If you are running a detachment that rewards running squads with Characters then they work quite well.

Its a glass half full/empty thing I suppose, but I still keep coming back to whichever you're doing, half of them aren't helping.  All the Victrix can shoot AND Fight.  All the Terminators can shoot AND fight.  If I'm paying premium prices I want premium results.  ~25-26 PPM is the low end of Elite, but you're still in the same ballpark as Bladeguard Vets and Outriders.

[Blindhamster]

Actually, a 3 man victrix squad had precisely 1 model that can shoot assuming you take the actual characters in it, a 6 man unit still has 2 models that don’t shoot. And both cost more points than company heroes.

 

dont get me wrong, the victrix are absolutely better, but actually their issue really is just that they are overtuned which is why they have seen point increases.

[Tacitus]

9 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Actually, a 3 man victrix squad had precisely 1 model that can shoot assuming you take the actual characters in it, a 6 man unit still has 2 models that don’t shoot. And both cost more points than company heroes.

 

dont get me wrong, the victrix are absolutely better, but actually their issue really is just that they are overtuned which is why they have seen point increases.

All the Victrix Guard can shoot.  The two specialists cannot, but why would anyone take the two specialists and not the full 6 man squad?  (Of course, I'm not really big on the Victrix at all yet - I want to be, but I'm not they've got LEADER stacking problems) You've got four out of six shooters.  six out of six in a second one because the two specialists are Unique. 

[Jolemai]

They've also just been nerfed.

 

Also also, they aren't relevant to a BA board. It doesn't matter one bit what shiny toys another Faction has received as we can't use them.

[Blindhamster]

Back on the topic of company heroes - I’ve found them to be a fun unit to run with a captain, they’re still relatively cheap, they’re relatively sturdy, have enough OC to be relevant and don’t entirely suck at either shooting or melee, even if they aren’t standouts at either. Champion in melee has precision which is handy. 
 

I actually run mine with a lieutenant too. I tend to run both the captain and lieutenant with both master crafted sword and bolter. Helps round out the units melee and shooting and gives lethal hits and fallback and charge/shoot.
 

Had a lot of fun with them personally

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 1/6/2026 at 9:22 PM, Tacitus said:

I wouldn't go that far.  Most of the Primarchs lived beyond the Heresy.  Cawl himself was alive 10,000 years ago when Guilliman ordered the creation of the Primaris Marines. 

 

Company Heroes are too schizophrenic for competitive play.  Whether you're shooting or fighting, half of them can't help you. 

Living and command experience are two very different things.

[Tacitus]

19 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Living and command experience are two very different things.

Pretty sure the Primarchs had command experience wherever they went, and Cawl spent much of those 10,000 years commanding armies too. 

[Ash]

On 1/9/2026 at 12:23 PM, Blindhamster said:

Back on the topic of company heroes - I’ve found them to be a fun unit to run with a captain, they’re still relatively cheap, they’re relatively sturdy, have enough OC to be relevant and don’t entirely suck at either shooting or melee, even if they aren’t standouts at either. Champion in melee has precision which is handy. 
 

I actually run mine with a lieutenant too. I tend to run both the captain and lieutenant with both master crafted sword and bolter. Helps round out the units melee and shooting and gives lethal hits and fallback and charge/shoot.
 

Had a lot of fun with them personally

And do not forget that Company Heroes hold a banner the same as Sanguinary Guard. Units that hold a banner retain some OC after becoming battle shocked.  You need OC in a good skirmishing unit in Rage Cursed Onslaught.  This where Company Heroes and Sanguinary Guard shine in RCO. Plus a 4 up fnp for Company Heroes on objectives or centre board is very useful on a 4 wound model.  

Edited January 12 by Ash
Added info

[Tacitus]

47 minutes ago, Ash said:

And do not forget that Company Heroes hold a banner the same as Sanguinary Guard. Units that hold a banner retain some OC after becoming battle shocked.  You need OC in a good skirmishing unit in Rage Cursed Onslaught.  This where Company Heroes and Sanguinary Guard shine in RCO. Plus a 4 up fnp for Company Heroes on objectives or centre board is very useful on a 4 wound model.  

How are you getting a 4+FNP on your Company Heroes in RCO?

[Ash]

Seems I read the Ancients Astartes Banner which is different from the Company Heroes Astartes banner.  Apologies and Correction taken, the Ancients (Leader) Astartes banner gives the 4 plus fnp.  The Astartes Banner in Company Heroes adds OC 

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Ash said:

Seems I read the Ancients Astartes Banner which is different from the Company Heroes Astartes banner.  Apologies and Correction taken, the Ancients (Leader) Astartes banner gives the 4 plus fnp.  The Astartes Banner in Company Heroes adds OC 

 

It is worse than that. The Ancient only gives 4+ FNP to himself, not his unit.  He might be worth taking otherwise.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 1/9/2026 at 4:45 PM, Tacitus said:

Pretty sure the Primarchs had command experience wherever they went, and Cawl spent much of those 10,000 years commanding armies too. 

When was he commanding armies? He was building an army, and there’s a huge difference between command in garrison vs command on the battlefield

weren’t the primarchs only a few hundred years old by the end of the heresy? 

[jaxom]

48 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

weren’t the primarchs only a few hundred years old by the end of the heresy? 

They were probably around 200-250  years old at the end of the Heresy. The end era of Unification and the Solar Wars could be anywhere from 50 years to 200 years; that’d add more time; but I’ lean into a lower expectation. I’m decently sure it was mentioned Dante, Grimnar, and Calgary are older than Guilliman. So about 200-250 at the end of the Siege and then another roughly 120 years to Thalassa would fit as it’d be 320-370 and that fits with being younger than Calgar but not by much.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

They were probably around 200-250  years old at the end of the Heresy. The end era of Unification and the Solar Wars could be anywhere from 50 years to 200 years; that’d add more time; but I’ lean into a lower expectation. I’m decently sure it was mentioned Dante, Grimnar, and Calgary are older than Guilliman. So about 200-250 at the end of the Siege and then another roughly 120 years to Thalassa would fit as it’d be 320-370 and that fits with being younger than Calgar but not by much.

So yeah, there’s no way the primarchs could have any where close to Dante’s command experience.

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So yeah, there’s no way the primarchs could have any where close to Dante’s command experience.

Dante was made a captain in 753.M40  That's about 250 years of command experience.  Primarchs who were 250 years old (and would have been commanding armies even before they were found) at the end of the Heresy and lived beyond it getting more than 250 years.  Guilliman and Russ (who brought Marines with him) probably have more years of command experience.  Corax could be close to equal as he left alone.  The Khan is possibly so far ahead of everyone else they're just playing for second place at this point.  Who knows how many marines followed him into the Webway, or how long they lived and he commanded them. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

Dante was made a captain in 753.M40  That's about 250 years of command experience.  Primarchs who were 250 years old (and would have been commanding armies even before they were found) at the end of the Heresy and lived beyond it getting more than 250 years.  Guilliman and Russ (who brought Marines with him) probably have more years of command experience.  Corax could be close to equal as he left alone.  The Khan is possibly so far ahead of everyone else they're just playing for second place at this point.  Who knows how many marines followed him into the Webway, or how long they lived and he commanded them. 

250 years of command as captain, and 1000+ years of command experience as chapter master…as chapter master he not only commanded ‘in garrison’ but also on the battlefield during that time.

 

why would you completely discount his experience as chapter master?

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So yeah, there’s no way the primarchs could have any where close to Dante’s command experience.

For all we know Khan and Russ are still going strong on the command thing.

 

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

 

 

why would you completely discount his experience as chapter master?

Because there's a huge difference between command in a garrisoned Chapter Monastery and command on the battlefield. 

 

Quote

When was he commanding armies? He was building an army, and there’s a huge difference between command in garrison vs command on the battlefield

weren’t the primarchs only a few hundred years old by the end of the heresy? 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Tacitus said:

For all we know Khan and Russ are still going strong on the command thing.

Sure for all we know but they’re not here leading the imperium and don’t have models so its irrelevant 

 

5 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Because there's a huge difference between command in a garrisoned Chapter Monastery and command on the battlefield. 

 

 

He’s been commanding on the battlefield even as chapter master. 
 

cawl was not taking primaris marines or anyone else out to battle at all during those 10k years

[Spagunk]

Dante is what you call a Frontline General. His lore is replete with many examples. Sure he has to manage a whole chapter but he does so by example. He would never command someone to do something he himself wouldn't do. Call that trait what you will but the reason Dante has everyone's respect in lore is because he can talk the talk AND walk the walk.

 

So yes, Dante technically has way more battlefield experience in both years and number of battles.

[Jolemai]

This is also recognised by Guilliman in Devastation of Baal too.

[Tacitus]

16 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Sure for all we know but they’re not here leading the imperium and don’t have models so its irrelevant 

 

You're saying Dante has been commanding armies on the tabletop for 1200 years? You've now moved the goalposts from the fluff to something else? 

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Spagunk said:

Dante is what you call a Frontline General. His lore is replete with many examples. Sure he has to manage a whole chapter but he does so by example. He would never command someone to do something he himself wouldn't do. Call that trait what you will but the reason Dante has everyone's respect in lore is because he can talk the talk AND walk the walk.

 

So yes, Dante technically has way more battlefield experience in both years and number of battles.

Yeah, I dont disagree he commands in the field as well as being the chapter master, but I also think Cawl has been commanding in the field as well as growing Primaris Marines and someone wanted to discount Cawl because he also did other things. 

 

Edit to Add:  Truth be told if I had to pick the one person in the Imperium with the most (verified not "could be") "command experience" I'd guess the winner is actually someone we haven't mentioned.  Bjorn was a "captain" during the Heresy, the first Great Wolf after Russ left, and maintained a sort of honorary Captaincy after being interred in his Dread and replaced as Great Wolf for quite some time (technically "to this day" - but he gets awoken less and less)

Edited January 13 by Tacitus

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Yeah, I dont disagree he commands in the field as well as being the chapter master, but I also think Cawl has been commanding in the field as well as growing Primaris Marines and someone wanted to discount Cawl because he also did other things. 

 

Edit to Add:  Truth be told if I had to pick the one person in the Imperium with the most (verified not "could be") "command experience" I'd guess the winner is actually someone we haven't mentioned.  Bjorn was a "captain" during the Heresy, the first Great Wolf after Russ left, and maintained a sort of honorary Captaincy after being interred in his Dread and replaced as Great Wolf for quite some time (technically "to this day" - but he gets awoken less and less)

I have not heard of any lore about cawl being a battlefield commander before the introduction of the primaris marines.

as far as I am aware from the end of the heresy to the introduction of the primaris marines he was in some underground lab doing unmentionable things.

Edited January 14 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

17 hours ago, Tacitus said:

You're saying Dante has been commanding armies on the tabletop for 1200 years? You've now moved the goalposts from the fluff to something else? 

I’m saying this discussion about time leading was started based on the fact Dante doesn’t generate CP like other chapter masters and the primarchs.

 

this whole discussion was predicated on datasheet rules and the character’s fluff. That means characters that exist only in the fluff are irrelevant.

[Jolemai]

Keep it civilised please folks.

Edited January 16 by Jolemai