The Scouring Ashes of the Imperium Chris Wraith

[Nagashsnee]

Firstly let me say i am making this thread because i truly believe the scouring should have a general thread to talk about it as a whole, but the books should have their own individual threads so they can be talked about as a book. For a series it may be, but each book can and should be judged on its own merits and flaws. It will also stop the general chat from bloating beyong being usefull. 

 

So general thoughts. This is a well written book, of course it is its Chris Wraith. It is a excellent start to the scouring and honestly left me wanting more if its all on this level.  However it deals with ALLOT of threads, too many for one book to deal with, and while i realise this book had to function as a springboard board for what BL hopes will be HH2 money printing bugaloo, it is already suffering under the HH burden.

 

Non spoiler 8/10, a great start with causes for concern.

 

Why do i think the above? Well. I am going to do 2 spoilers tags, tag one is general thought, tag 2 is specific things.

Spoiler

Ok lets do this. The good, the book knows what it needs to do, it knows what the HH left in the air, it knows what the people want. 

• The traitors retreat, covered.
• The loaylist arrival. covered.
• The aftermath on terra, covered. 
• Our set of characters coming to grips with the new dawn, covered.
• The Primarchs dealing with eachother and their actions, covered.

 

Now when i say covered, i mean the book deals with it, not that each of the above is done in depth or to any crazy degree. But it gives enough of each so that nothing feels forgotten. However the books priorities are PLAIN to see and this is where the problems start.

 

This book is a good author dealing with a mandate, it is clear to me that BL had some clear railroads on what to deal with and this is not on its own a bad thing. In fact the HH needed much more of this then it got. The issue is that many many things are never explained or ingored as the book has to deal with a metric TON of topics. Topics it should not have to deal with.

 

• The traitors retreat should have been dealt with in the siege, it is part of the siege, the arrival of the loaylist fleet and the traitors flight MARKS the ending of the HH and the siege of terra, it is the dawn of the new era. The scouring has not actually started yet, in fact the debate of this book is IF it should start now.  The triple book finale should have actually ended the HH, it should have ended the siege, it should have actually dont its job and left a clean board.  Instead we are having another Istvaan, the flight from terra is getting pieces done here and there, instead of being dealt with when it should have. 
• The Ultramarine hyping in this book is frankly on another level. Now i made peace with the retcon of the relief of terra going from the Wolves/DA a long time ago. Ok we are going to put the Ultras in there because of changes to the overall narative and because they are Ultramarines so of course they will save the day. But this book makes it 100% clear that it was SOLELY the ultramarines who relieved terra, and the wolves and angels arriving after the solar system and terra were well under loaylist control, and in the clean up phase....why?  Like why have them be THAT late, ok Ultramarines need to be the best at all times, but cant you have the Wolves and Angels arrive while the ultras are pushing into Sol? Cant you have them be enganged with the traitor rearguard and have the other 2 show up and make the traitors realise it went from loss to run or be run down?. The book goes out of it way to point out that the arrival of the two extra legions (as battle worn as they are) is utterly pointless. It makes no difference and in fact is a net downside as they are just going to muddle the matters of power on terra and would have done more good out in the broader war.  As a older fan, seeing the small but steady changes to the lore with the sole objective of !!!ULTRAMARINES BUY YOURS NOW!!! cross from 40k to 30k has been sad. And this book makes it clear i am going to get sadder.  I understand they are the main character for GW, but there are ways and WAYS of doing this. I lived thru the matt ward spiritual liege era, and i can see it poking its head out here. It just keeps hitting you over the head with it over and over and over. And sometimes in ways that dont actually makes sense (see spoiler 2).
• The book is a series of set ups for future books, to a slightly (i said slightly) detrimental degree, things are constantly being set up for future realeases and while this book is good, there is no real conclusion to anything.  To name a few, Throne isnt working right, the emperor is not healing, Blood Angels are terrified of the rage, Dorn is going to launch his crusade, Mars is to be invaded, the Iron warriors are launching their war against the WB plans, Chaos has taken a blow, psyckers have no powers, Inwit is dark, Terran politics x4, etc etc. This book is walking us down a gallery showing us trailers for the future books, but at times at the cost of being a book itself if that makes sense. 

 

Specific things, all of these are my opinion and so 100% correct and above reproach (thats a joke just in case). 

Spoiler

Ok hey everyone Mech Player here, 30k, 40k, BFG, Legiones imperialis. BL and Chris Wraith got the titles of the Fabricator General wrong and my rage is untethered and knows no bounds (thats a Always sunny in Phili joke). So in the character list he is down as Fabricator General Locum, and then in the book people only ever talk about the Fabricator Locum even when its CLEAR they are talking about Zagreus Kane Fabricator GENERAL FULL STOP of the adeptus mechanicus. Fun fact he use to be the fabricator locum for the MECHANICUM unber Kelbor Hal. Double fun fact in Master of Mankind iirc they even name drop Kanes fabricator Locum.  These are two very seperate and very different titles. Two different characters, you cant just suddenly decide HEY what if everyone calls the Master of the Adeptus Mechanicus by the wrong title, sometimes to his face, a man who previous books have made CLEAR is a petty petty drama queen.  I dont know how this got past Wraith, i know the editors were probably too foccussed on planning the scouring salamande trilogy (Hey Kyme!). And its never adresssed ( unless i missed it, in which case you must point it out and laugh at me, it would be just and fair and i would be happy cause it would be better then its being a mistake.  No one ever says something like 'since the death of the Fabricator Locum in the siege Kane has used both titles', mostly because even if they did they would still use his SENIOR title of Fabricator General. 

 

To be honest the whole Mechanicus/Mars thing is a real real issue with the book. Time after time the book shows how due to the death of Horus the warp has gone deathly still, deamons are gone and need INSANE levels of power to manifest, and all the deamonic hybrids died... which raises the question why on Terra are they not rushing Mars asap.  Oh politics....yeah no. You see the problem with complex political structures is that they are well....complex. NOTHING in this galaxy would stop elements of the Mechanicus invading mars, NOTHING. These are the people who betrayed the EMPEROR in the webway war, who broke Vangorich by TELEPORTING ULLANOR, the people who would crowd the palace balconies just to see home and cry out its name. They tried to shank the Mechanicum ambassador for wanting to make any comprimise with terra.  Now Kane is neck deep in the throne room, ok he can see that he is needed. But my fellow readers, time after time after time, the Mechanicus has show its willing to kill, murder and fight to get back to mars, ANYONE, ANYTHING, ANYTIME.  The fleets coming in system would have HUGE mechanicus elements, elements that would quickly realise that a planet full of enemies who spend 7 years putting the warp and deamons into everything suddenly and UNEXPECTEDLY losing all their warp and deamons are wide open. Loaylist landings would be happening faster then even the Ultramarines could stop it.  And its never adressed.   The Mechanicus becomes backround figures to the Primarchs arguing over strategy.  Worse then that many of them are suprised???? That Kane would not support the 'lets not go to mars just yet' plan....sigh. Worse then that its Dorn, who has dealt with Kane and his MARS MANIA for years at this point.  

 

But you say, the book cant deal with all that, AND all the other stuff...i know, that my point, its yadda yaddaing too much, its trying to cover to much, its running past things that should not be run passed. 

 

• Why was Luna ignored? Like When they achived terran orbital supremacy why did they not also clear lunar orbit? Wait how are they in terran orbital supremacy with enemy ships in lunar orbit??? How does that work?  If the Ultramarines could clear terra and scour the sol system before the Lion and Russ even got there why was Luna left alone? Like on arrival before he even knew of the ships and the sisters Lunar orbit would be a prime objct? Like you cant have both. Sure they throw out some weak excuses but they are weak. Simpel fact is anyone on Luna could launch ordance on terra at will, and no blockade would ever be enough to secure terra from a traitor occupied Luna. Primarchs who are super human super strategists WOULD KNOW THIS. 
• We have no actual idea of losses on either side. Broad vague statements that are meaningless.  In space especially its weird that we have to refrence 40k to figure out which gloriannas may be functioning at this point. Did the Red Tear survive? Did all the traitor glorianas break out of the system?  Numbers can be left vague sure but like...did the Emperors other ship make it?  Instead we have the classic 'losses were super heavy' but there will always be enough of everything to make the story work, and nothing that might stop the studio from being able to pull a glorianna in 40k out of no where. But like in the HH this is the only period where we get to see these ships function and fight and die, and we always somehow just skip it (praise be to ADB for actually killing one, and funnily enough Chris Wraith for Killing one). The Phalanx was again awesome off screen and we see it heavily damaged and being repaired to be less then it was....sigh.
• The ultramarines have the largest fleet....why? G man was at the head of the largest relief force sure, but the vast majority of forces would be non legion. Mechanicus, Army, System Forces, etc.  Once at Terra on a Purely Legion basis it should not be much bigger then the Lions and Russes fleets.  Even forces under Ultramarine expeditionary fleets are ultimatly there as combined forces. The novel talks allot about the Lex and the Imperium, but kinda forgets this when it wants. G man was at the head of a gathering of a SEGMENTUMS forces.  The lord Admiral of the Navy and the Mechanicus would likely have fleets far far bigger then any legion in the Sol System. But the book kinda blurs the line between legion forces, forces legion might be able to call upon, and forces that arrived under said legions. 
• The ultramarines have planned for food and water to be brought to sol in advance without knowing that Horus would blow up and every traitor army would rout and deamons flee.  The convoy forces alone would starve their fleet, nature of late Heresy warp and battlelines would make it impossible to plan, they dint even know when THEY would break thru and arrive, and then you add in warp travel....but honestly i dont mind this. This is Ultramarine lore i can get behind, not logical in the way all warhammer is, they planned, and shipped enough to get thru, fine ok.  Honestly with the casulties on terra not that much would be needed anyhow.  G man cracked out the exels and made it happen, and i can proudly say go G man. Would i still like to know the loss rate of relief fleets % wise....yes haha. But i would watch the WW2 altantic crossing documentary on it too. 

 

Look i know i am sound doom and gloom and i dont mean to be, its a GOOD BOOK, it was FUN TO READ. Many of its issues are NOT ITS FAULT. But....but.

This book as cemented the problem with GW making 40k Horus Heresy light. 

 

This is a book about G man getting to terra, finding it in shambles, having to re organise it with macragagian (sp?) methods and personal, having to deal with the other imperial powers and their interests, having to deal with accusation that he is setting it all up to take power, having to re organise the imperium and get it ready for a crusade of re conquest against chaos while other imperial forces seek their own interests while also steering the Astartes into a new era while the golden throne is near failure and the technology of the past is being forgotten. This is the story of launching the Indomitus crusade and 8th edition of 40k. 

 

Wait sorry got my notes mixed up, i forgot to add while his brothers are also present and some of the mortals names are different, also Custodes are emo now. There we go. This is the story of the scouring. 

 

Since 8th edition 40k has been becoming more and more like 30k, while in the HH books the authors were adding more and more 40k. And that is its own topic, but this book really brought out the watering down of both eras to the fore for me. 

Edit: I stopped myself from going on. But i wanted to add, this book makes me want to to talk about warhammer, it makes me think about warhammer, it makes me reach for other books to make me check iirc. And THAT to me is HIGH praise for any book. I have issues with it, but unlike say the End and the Death, there is nothing i would cut from this book, if anything i would add, more pages, explore the issues better, longer, make the good BETTER. Because it IS  a good book. And i dont want that in question. 

Edited Monday at 08:28 AM by Nagashsnee

[wecanhaveallthree]

Ultramarines, Mars and Guilliman:

 

Spoiler

I think it's being very strongly signposted - particularly when we take Carrion Throne into account and the extremely anti-Guilliman sentiment there - that this is a coup. Guilliman packed ships full of mortal supplies because it will buy him loyalty. He works in the shadows to buy support for his goals. He uses proxies and vague language. In Secondus, Guilliman was the true power with Sanguinius as a figurehead. In the Scouring, Guilliman wants to do the same thing because 'someone else might get it wrong', to borrow a phrase. Only Guilliman can run the Imperium. Only Guilliman can effectively marshal men and material. If only Guilliman had been Warmaster...

 

In the first few chapters, Prayto puts it best: everyone is dependent on the XIII. For everything. Food, ships, material, etc. Nobody can gainsay Guilliman, not really, because if you don't get in line you will be pushed, powerless, to the edge. This neatly intersects with Mars: the Mechanicus have a mutual interest there, and if Guilliman controls all the might of Mars and the gene-labs of Luna, he doesn't need any title or authority. He will be Emperor. 

 

It's the reason everyone ignored Mars and Luna to begin with. Everyone is rushing to be at the centre of things, to carve out power for themselves, to get a seat at the table. But it's Guilliman's table. It's not just the other Primarchs who are going to be uncomfortable with this, it's the mortals who have now realised the Primarchs are not infallible and, indeed, nearly destroyed the whole Imperium last time they had the reins of power. 

 

This isn't Dawn of Fire/Indomitus/Dark Imperium, the regretful and unwilling Guilliman yoked to the ruined cart of the Imperium. This is a Primarch doing exactly what Primarchs were made to do, without any hand on the tiller. I don't agree with the direction, and it seems to forget all the lessons of the Secondus arc, but it is an interesting direction, more 'true' to the cold, logical and unflinching Guilliman of Know No Fear, his 'essence', the 'dark side' of what he was made to be rather than the (generally) good man he grew to be under the guidance of Konor and Euten and with the brotherhood he fought through the Heresy with (e.g. Ruinstorm). 

 

I also think the idea that Guilliman is going to make everything Ultramar in the same way the Emperor was going to make everything Terran is a beautiful, chilling continuation of The Great Work. Again, to borrow a quote: Guilliman was made to win, and he knows the way. 

 

I also expect the 'new Astartes' scene to be copy-pasted absolutely everywhere for years to come. It's... sad. It's really, really sad.

 

My chief complaint about Ashes is that it picks and chooses what's neat, what works from the Siege/Heresy and discards utterly what doesn't fit the story it wants to tell. This is a clear editorial direction. Very well. But the sheer revisionism of it is staggering. I was laughing out loud when the Traitors were waxing lyrical about how they were gonna totally rebuild the Imperium, actually, and that it was always about autonomy, and like, we were always going to destroy Terra and rule from Luna (????????????????)! It doesn't even feel like... a retcon, or anything, it's so divorced from the actual reality of the latter Heresy where the only people still kicking on the Traitor side were more kool-aid than man. This is a book of... principles, perhaps, of high morals and philosophy. That scene with the 'great replacement' of Terra, for example. Fantastic writing. Beautiful. Evocative. But done without any consideration at all for what came before, or what will come after. 

Edited Monday at 02:13 PM by wecanhaveallthree
i won't scatter your edits to the heartless sea

[Fedor]

Imperium Secundus ended up being very tame compared to what it was initially hyped as. I hope they take more risks with Guilliman's politicking and potential darker side here.

 

 

[Krelious]

I'm over 100 pages into it and it feels like Wraight would have been an infinitely better choice than Dan Abnett to write the End and the Death. I like how he takes everything into account and asks serious questions as to what character motivations are and different perspecitves are in all that to bring terms to the fact we are like flies on the wall we know everything that happens in broad strokes. The characters dont know everything that has happened or the steps they need to take in the future so I think its rather brilliant how he portrays both the traitors and loyalists in the aftermath, things that bring them together and tensions that divide them, and even Xanthus-Fo messing around with a radical side of things. 

 

So far this book hasnt really been all break neck action but its here and there but everything is just so compelling that I am really enjoying reading it and only taking a break now because If i kept on reading id neglect other work I have to get done before I go to bed.  Could very easily be the top book of the year I will vote for. 

 

The one thing Im kind of confused about is to why the Ultramarines are the foil to the Word Bearers and all I can think of is that the Ultramarines believe in the power of a secular government and statistics in that Guillimans Demon powers are the powers of logistics and beurocracy well managed into a potent weapon while the Word Bearers are all like faith and magic will substitute for having a degree in engineering by getting demons to do it for me if I pay them in blood. Its just I'm seeing thats the way the book was set up in having Wordbearers-Ultramarines Imperial Fists-Iron Warriors being contrasting legions operating within the same spheres of interest but quite honestly Id see more the Thousand Sons being a foil to the Wordbearers more than Ultramarines. 

[Nagashsnee]

16 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Ultramarines, Mars and Guilliman:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I think it's being very strongly signposted - particularly when we take Carrion Throne into account and the extremely anti-Guilliman sentiment there - that this is a coup. Guilliman packed ships full of mortal supplies because it will buy him loyalty. He works in the shadows to buy support for his goals. He uses proxies and vague language. In Secondus, Guilliman was the true power with Sanguinius as a figurehead. In the Scouring, Guilliman wants to do the same thing because 'someone else might get it wrong', to borrow a phrase. Only Guilliman can run the Imperium. Only Guilliman can effectively marshal men and material. If only Guilliman had been Warmaster...

 

In the first few chapters, Prayto puts it best: everyone is dependent on the XIII. For everything. Food, ships, material, etc. Nobody can gainsay Guilliman, not really, because if you don't get in line you will be pushed, powerless, to the edge. This neatly intersects with Mars: the Mechanicus have a mutual interest there, and if Guilliman controls all the might of Mars and the gene-labs of Luna, he doesn't need any title or authority. He will be Emperor. 

 

It's the reason everyone ignored Mars and Luna to begin with. Everyone is rushing to be at the centre of things, to carve out power for themselves, to get a seat at the table. But it's Guilliman's table. It's not just the other Primarchs who are going to be uncomfortable with this, it's the mortals who have now realised the Primarchs are not infallible and, indeed, nearly destroyed the whole Imperium last time they had the reins of power. 

 

This isn't Dawn of Fire/Indomitus/Dark Imperium, the regretful and unwilling Guilliman yoked to the ruined cart of the Imperium. This is a Primarch doing exactly what Primarchs were made to do, without any hand on the tiller. I don't agree with the direction, and it seems to forget all the lessons of the Secondus arc, but it is an interesting direction, more 'true' to the cold, logical and unflinching Guilliman of Know No Fear, his 'essence', the 'dark side' of what he was made to be rather than the (generally) good man he grew to be under the guidance of Konor and Euten and with the brotherhood he fought through the Heresy with (e.g. Ruinstorm). 

 

I also think the idea that Guilliman is going to make everything Ultramar in the same way the Emperor was going to make everything Terran is a beautiful, chilling continuation of The Great Work. Again, to borrow a quote: Guilliman was made to win, and he knows the way. 

 

 

Spoiler

I fully agree on the rush to the centre, and that would be a fine defence....if the book dint also show us how they have methodically scoured the widder sol system, to the point of near completion.  There is 0 reason to ignore Luna on arrival, ONCE you get on the ground and in the dungeon and talk to the sisters sure. And i want to make clear i am talking orbital control here. Not the ground. The ground fine. Tho again it is a push.

14 hours ago, Fedor said:

Imperium Secundus ended up being very tame compared to what it was initially hyped as. I hope they take more risks with Guilliman's politicking and potential darker side here.

 

 

Imperium Secundus was one mans dream, and he walked away from it. Hopefully this time anything they start is from a central plan and not author whims. 

 

3 hours ago, Krelious said:

I'm over 100 pages into it and it feels like Wraight would have been an infinitely better choice than Dan Abnett to write the End and the Death.

 

1000% agree. I did before it came out, i did after, i do after this book.

[grailkeeper]

5 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I fully agree on the rush to the centre, and that would be a fine defence....if the book dint also show us how they have methodically scoured the widder sol system, to the point of near completion.  There is 0 reason to ignore Luna on arrival, ONCE you get on the ground and in the dungeon and talk to the sisters sure. And i want to make clear i am talking orbital control here. Not the ground. The ground fine. Tho again it is a push.

Imperium Secundus was one mans dream, and he walked away from it. Hopefully this time anything they start is from a central plan and not author whims. 

 

 

1000% agree. I did before it came out, i did after, i do after this book.

 

 

And that man's name was Dan Abnett.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Spoiler

I fully agree on the rush to the centre, and that would be a fine defence....if the book dint also show us how they have methodically scoured the widder sol system, to the point of near completion.  There is 0 reason to ignore Luna on arrival, ONCE you get on the ground and in the dungeon and talk to the sisters sure. And i want to make clear i am talking orbital control here. Not the ground. The ground fine. Tho again it is a push.

 

If you're good at something, never do it for free. It's said quite bluntly in the first few chapters: nobody can do anything in Sol without assistance from the Ultramarines, and the Ultramarines aren't doing anything until Guilliman gets his pound of flesh for it. I think the issue here is that you're thinking of modern!Guilliman, or even post-Ruinstorm Guilliman who still can't make hard decisions circa Spear of Ultramar (though he has the Librarius and Destroyers back in service) when it comes to letting people suffer when he can do something about it.

 

This isn't that Guilliman. 

[DarkChaplain]

I haven't read past the first three chapters yet, but I want to discuss Roboute a bit. The novel might contradict me, I don't know yet, but this is how I would interpret Guilliman heading into this.

 

I really wish the book acknowledged Euten, or rather, her death in one of the HH short stories en route to Terra. It just happened and nobody seems to remember her or that she died as part of Guilliman's fleet action. THAT, in my opinion, could be a decent enough catalyst for Guilliman becoming more... selfish? Is that even the right word, considering that he doesn't do anything for inherently selfish reasons but because he thinks it's the right thing to do, even if it in the end benefits him?

 

Guilliman pretty much lost his mother on the headlong charge to safe his father - his real one, not just the adoptive Konor. He failed them both. Both people who were capable of setting him right, of being a corrective on his route. Both figures with authority over him - even if that, in Euten's case, is just emotional authority as a parent, rather than your creator and direct, hierarchical superior.

 

There's a case to be made for Guilliman to be deeply traumatized, not alone because of how wrong he was about creating Imperium Secundus, forfeiting the Throneworld mostly due to the Ruinstorm. Knowing that he could have been there for the Siege, either on the ground or at least in orbit to hopefully prevent mass deployment, must be ruinous to an intellect like Guilliman's. Just look at what happened to the Lion of all people - the bloke was so stricken, he tried goading Russ into a duel to the death right there at the Palace. And he got both fooled by the Astronomican blinking out and went on a rampage on traitor worlds, all while Guilliman simply couldn't reach Terra on the final leg due to said Astronomican outage. Look at what this has done to Rogal Dorn, the man of stone.

 

Guilliman's trauma ought to be no less deep, but his highly analytical, logical mind - genetically engineered to be that way by the Emperor! - wouldn't even let him settle down and grieve like a normal human being, or even like one of his brothers. It makes sense to me that he'd stumble head first into the aftermath, trying to make sense of things, trying to overengineer every contingency. It's his coping mechanism - he knows no other way. He did it at Calth. He did it after the Shadow Crusade saw Angron ascended. He did it when Vulkan died. It's precisely what he did after his return to the Imperium, ten millennia in the future. He always went straight back into what he believed was necessary, even to the detriment of his relationships, or deceiving his would-be allies out of fear for being honest and open, of showing his own weakness.

 

Roboute Guilliman is the one trying to fix things, but he is just as broken as all the rest.

Edited yesterday at 01:55 PM by DarkChaplain

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

Guilliman's trauma ought to be no less deep, but his highly analytical, logical mind - genetically engineered to be that way by the Emperor! - wouldn't even let him settle down and grieve like a normal human being, or even like one of his brothers.

 

I think this is bang on. This is Guilliman without modulation, what he would have been without the influence of his parents and his brothers. Guilliman was portrayed really well in Know No Fear - even though it was glaze by his own guys - as someone who couldn't be Warmaster because he'd moved beyond that simple idea. Guilliman already ruled an empire of his own. His reaction to the loss of Terra was to immediately begin empire building. He's a superhuman supercomputer. Everybody else is to be managed, to be appeased, but none of them can do what Guilliman can (see the echoes of the Lion here, and Imperium Secondus). Somebody else would get it wrong. In fact, everybody else did get it wrong. He's not going to say that to them, of course. That would be impolitic. But they failed. And they'll fail again. So they need to be managed out of the way. Solicited. Massaged. Removed.

 

It's a stretch from these early days, but I get the very strong feeling we're going to see that 'history' of 'Ultramarines could have bailed out the Fists at the Iron Cage but waited instead' come true. Ashes makes it very clear that the default state of the Primarchs is power and control: that's simply their nature. But Guilliman eclipses all of them, I think, in his ruthlessness. He already owns an empire. He is the natural choice to lead. The only choice. 

[Nagashsnee]

3 hours ago, grailkeeper said:

 

 

And that man's name was Dan Abnett.

I am trying to avoid the name, hopefully to avoid the mess that happened with his more passionate fans in the EatD thread.  The unremembered Empire was a giant dud in the HH, that went nowhere and wasted allot of ink. But to its credit, the potentual was indeed vast. 

2 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I fully agree on the rush to the centre, and that would be a fine defence....if the book dint also show us how they have methodically scoured the widder sol system, to the point of near completion.  There is 0 reason to ignore Luna on arrival, ONCE you get on the ground and in the dungeon and talk to the sisters sure. And i want to make clear i am talking orbital control here. Not the ground. The ground fine. Tho again it is a push.

 

If you're good at something, never do it for free. It's said quite bluntly in the first few chapters: nobody can do anything in Sol without assistance from the Ultramarines, and the Ultramarines aren't doing anything until Guilliman gets his pound of flesh for it. I think the issue here is that you're thinking of modern!Guilliman, or even post-Ruinstorm Guilliman who still can't make hard decisions circa Spear of Ultramar (though he has the Librarius and Destroyers back in service) when it comes to letting people suffer when he can do something about it.

 

This isn't that Guilliman. 

Look i get your point, i do, truly. I just dont think he could calculate and accept the risk of traitor capital ships in lunar orbit at the moment of arrival.  The orders would be to clear orbit and secure the throne world. This to me is a case of BL not really thinking the military implications thru. Or just me overesimating the dangers of capital ships so close to terra.  Russias Luna 2 could reach the moon in 34 hours in 1959. A 30k escort should be able to get in ordance range of terra from luna fast, like scary fast.  I wont crack out the BFG and rpg figures but warhammer and hard numbers are a joke. But at the widely talked about figures ships in lunar orbit should not be tolarated by people claiming terra is secure. Not when any single ship could launch any number of silly ordance. without a care for accuracy other then hit planet. However i accept this may just be me overthinking it.  

 

 

1 hour ago, DarkChaplain said:

I really wish the book acknowledged Euten, or rather, her death in one of the HH short stories en route to Terra. It just happened and nobody seems to remember her or that she died as part of Guilliman's fleet action. THAT, in my opinion, could be a decent enough catalyst for Guilliman becoming more... selfish? Is that even the right word, considering that he doesn't do anything for inherently selfish reasons but because he thinks it's the right thing to do, even if it in the end benefits him?

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

I think this is bang on.

I agree with you both. I also would add him finding out about Sanguinius would make it a double blow. Things like the message in EatD make it clear that he really was close to Sanguinius not just in a dauntless few military way, but as actual brothers. But this book simply doesnt have the room needed to deal with this stuff. It has too much other stuff to cover. I was hoping for a scene of him finding out about Sanguinius. 

[DarkChaplain]

1 hour ago, Nagashsnee said:

I am trying to avoid the name, hopefully to avoid the mess that happened with his more passionate fans in the EatD thread.  The unremembered Empire was a giant dud in the HH, that went nowhere and wasted allot of ink. But to its credit, the potentual was indeed vast.

 

Don't make me pull out and actually finish the big essay on Imperium Secundus I started writing way back when... I still have it somewhere on my hard drive, and with even more hindsight than the last time I typed on it, my frustration has only compounded! Then again, I've already textwalled plenty about it on here as well over the last few years.... So much wasted potential, so much editorial flip-flopping....

 

Great point about Sanguinius, too. I was expecting that to be covered in the book, so I didn't mention that up there, but damn, Guilliman and the Lion went out of their way to open the route for Sanguinius to be the one of the three to reach Terra first and on time. In a sense, Guilliman enabled both Sanguinius's achievements at the Siege - and the thing would've been entirely lost without the Blood Angels there! - but also his inevitable death. That's gotta sting, even before we come to their personal relationship.

[Nagashsnee]

44 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

Don't make me pull out and actually finish the big essay on Imperium Secundus I started writing way back when... I still have it somewhere on my hard drive, and with even more hindsight than the last time I typed on it, my frustration has only compounded! Then again, I've already textwalled plenty about it on here as well over the last few years.... So much wasted potential, so much editorial flip-flopping....

Open a thread and post it. I am down to tango on Imperium Suckundus any day. Sounds like a fun read. 

[Scribe]

On the one hand, I like a lot of what I'm reading here. On the other, TEATD burned me so bad, I really dont want to get involved...

[Fedor]

TEATD was the bloated, gonzo, purple masterpiece that the series needed and deserved. Wraight's too much the dry straight man of a writer to have been a suitable choice for that, despite his strengths when doing his own thing, working as a setup man, or cleanup for the timeline/character slop of McNeil.

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, Fedor said:

TEATD was the bloated, gonzo, purple masterpiece that the series needed and deserved.

 

I'm afraid I found it more a bloated, gonzo, abomination that fumbled on the goal line and ruined a legacy...

[Tolmeus]

I know that's a whole other discussion, but I think it being bloated was a curse and a blessing. As a fan you sure wanted to get everything out of the finale. Surely, how the finale went is another matter altogether. To me it was a huge failure to promote it as 8 books, only to alter it to 9 and than 10 + 3 novellas and 1 anthology. Although there were truly great plots in this whole series. I guess the point stands that one could have shortend it. The bits and pics after TEATD 1 wore out rather quick.

That's it, will keep quite now about the SoT and look forward to read Ashes tomorrow.

[son of the forest]

Received my copy today and the front widget is not in the right place 

[Nagashsnee]

13 hours ago, Scribe said:

On the one hand, I like a lot of what I'm reading here. On the other, TEATD burned me so bad, I really dont want to get involved...

 

10 hours ago, Fedor said:

TEATD was the bloated, gonzo, purple masterpiece that the series needed and deserved. Wraight's too much the dry straight man of a writer to have been a suitable choice for that, despite his strengths when doing his own thing, working as a setup man, or cleanup for the timeline/character slop of McNeil.

 

10 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

I'm afraid I found it more a bloated, gonzo, abomination that fumbled on the goal line and ruined a legacy...

 

10 hours ago, Tolmeus said:

I know that's a whole other discussion, but I think it being bloated was a curse and a blessing. As a fan you sure wanted to get everything out of the finale. Surely, how the finale went is another matter altogether. To me it was a huge failure to promote it as 8 books, only to alter it to 9 and than 10 + 3 novellas and 1 anthology. Although there were truly great plots in this whole series. I guess the point stands that one could have shortend it. The bits and pics after TEATD 1 wore out rather quick.

That's it, will keep quite now about the SoT and look forward to read Ashes tomorrow.

 

 

People people. leave the TeatD stuff where it belongs, in threads dealing with TeatD. Unless its in refrence to how it affects ashes of the Imperium lets try and keep on target. 

 

Ashes of the Imperium has enough to talk about without going back into the TeatD bloat wars.  

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

Ashes of the Imperium has enough to talk about

 

I gently prompted it above, but now I am no longer asking politely.

 

MAY WE DISCUSS THE CREATION OF 'NEXT GENERATION' ASTARTES PLEASE AND THANK YOU, like holy heck, they just reverse-Primaris'd all of the Firstborn. 

[Nagashsnee]

52 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

MAY WE DISCUSS THE CREATION OF 'NEXT GENERATION' ASTARTES PLEASE AND THANK YOU, like holy heck, they just reverse-Primaris'd all of the Firstborn. 

Fine fine. So

 

Spoiler

This is a part of the book i both love and hate. I love it because it not only both symbolically and literally shows us the end of the Crusade, with Astartes going from  transhuman but human warriors, to their orginal (more on this latter) brainwashed child soldier psycho monks in SPACEEE 40k theme.

 

The open minded, human marines are a dying breed, with the Imperium brainwashing and beating out as much free will and humanity out of their transhuman weapons as it thinks it can get away with before it harms their combat efficiency.  No longer are marines envisioned as anything but the mindless and disposable weapons the traitors were claiming the Emperor viewed them as to begin with.  This is the death of the Zephons and Lokens and the birth of the early warhammer  brainwashed murder monks.

 

Now the issue with this is because BL and GW love money (fair dos) and BL needs to sell books, WE WILL NEVER EVER SEE the dulled, monastic dour brainwashed killers in any of the bloody books! Its always Ragnars, Dantes, Grimaldis (sp?), always fun to read about (again fair dos books need to sell) but deeply HUMAN marines. 

 

I have talked before on how the best BEST marine book on this is Spear of the Emperor. Because its one of the only times we see lore accurate marine personality wise ....who of course meets celtic barbarian fun marines and goes native and ends up becoming a fun more human marine.  But that first half of the book, is as close as we have gotten to actual marines. Aloof, alien, inhumane, razon focus on war, duty and violence. 

 

So i am glad that the book is showing me that the Imperium has started taking steps to 'fix' the astartes in their fear of more traitors. But i know we will NEVER see the results of this in anything but our protaganists remarking how 'these new guyes are x'. Because ultimately writting lore accurate marines AND making a fun to read book would is really hard, and most writers for BL either cant or wont put in the work to make such a book. Not when writting another 'fun human marine' is not ONLY easier, but luckily will sell better. 

 

 

 

Now can we go back to the really important stuff please?

Spoiler

For real the Fabricator General title thing irked me. Maybe more then it should. 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Nagashsnee

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

the results of this in anything but our protaganists remarking how 'these new guyes are x'.

 

I would argue we did see that in books like War of Secrets, where the natural, immediate response of the Primaris to the Dark Angels is 'what the hell is wrong with all of you'. Ashes just makes explicit what was always sort-of suspected. The contrast between Primaris Marines made with Crusade-era sensibilities and techniques (Cawl notwithstanding, but he obviously hewed as close as possible to the 'original template' sans Sinew Coils and Furnace). It also adds a really interesting dimension to the Primaris (or a giant plot hole, if we would like to be uncharitable) - at the same time Guilliman is signing off on mass-producing lobotomised Marines, he's also telling Cawl to create improved Marines without those modifications. We can only speculate as to why.

[Nagashsnee]

28 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

at the same time Guilliman is signing off on mass-producing lobotomised Marines, he's also telling Cawl to create improved Marines without those modifications. We can only speculate as to why.

I would be very careful with atributing ANYTHING Cawl did to G man until we get a actual scene of his instructions. Cawl is a very very unreliable narrator, he would not even know he is wrong when saying something. It is very possible that G man instructions were vague and broad as he fully expected to be there to supervise ,see and modify prototypes.  The Cawl he met would also be a very very different creature to the 40k Cawl. 

 

We have what a 9-9.5K year gap between him setting cawl to start and him meeting Cawl with finished products.  From his reactions to things like Cawl using all the Primarchs genelines it is clear that between the initual order and him waking up there is a GULF he was likely never expecting to be there.  Make them better, faster, stronger is all well and good. But i doubt it was, also make them new guns, and ships, and armor, and use the traitor genelines, and keep production ongoing untill you have entire legions on ice and never stop or tell anyone for anything short of me coming back from the GRAVE. 

 

Its just as likely G man just wanted a % increase in their key skills and assets. And as the centuries went on Cawl just kept adding things on as he finished them. 'Ok bolter have been improved, boss still in stasis, might as well see what i can do with plasma'. It would never have been logical to task just Cawl with all the things he ended up doing, but i dont think anyone expected him to have 9k+ years left alone to do it.  Just like him being able to basically eat brains and entire new tech fields with them was ever taken into account. We dont even know what Cawl himself thought he was capable when all this started, and what he become capable of as time went on. 

 

Its something the scouring SHOULD cover.

Edited 6 hours ago by Nagashsnee

[Alpharius902]

6 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

MAY WE DISCUSS THE CREATION OF 'NEXT GENERATION' ASTARTES PLEASE AND THANK YOU, like holy heck, they just reverse-Primaris'd all of the Firstborn. 

 

Spoiler

That's mainly just Black Library incorporating the mainline studio lore in regards to the Inductii IMO. Siege of Cthonia established that hypno-indoctrination was standard practice across most of the Legions during the Heresy, the Imperial Fists especially using it to speed up training times (this was one point that actually confused me during my reading - Archamus should have been used to seeing this since it's been done for seven+ years, why exactly is he having such a visceral reaction to it?)