New Chaos Models

[Nephaston]

Doesn't even need a different scale, just slightly more proportionate legs, imo almost contemptor length but not quite.

[Orange Knight]

13 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Levithan is the obvious pick, as it is similiar in size to the redemptor chassis. would make a nice counterpoint

 

I like this idea. 

 

You could have a stripped down/corrupted, chaos Leviathan for use in 40k as a dark mirror to the loyalist Redemptor.

[LSM]

12 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

New Chaos Dreadnoughts for the cult legions would be cool. I'd prefer they stay no bigger than a Contemptor though; I really don't care for the constant scale creep of literally everything. IMO at least the Redemptor is too damn big as it is- I feel like Helbrutes would work better as direct opponents if you could field them in squads of up to 3.

 

7 hours ago, Nephaston said:

Doesn't even need a different scale, just slightly more proportionate legs, imo almost contemptor length but not quite.

 

I'd seen others use spare Forgefiend legs on Helbrutes and thought they looked great, so did the same for my old EC 'brute (now running as a Daemon Prince).

 

While this is a bit smushed together from leftovers and green stuff, the upper body is Helbrute sized. Just changing the legs makes a big difference to its profile.

 

[Xirix]

I know it's not actually a dreadnought, but the Decimator was made as a counter for loyalist Leviathans, maybe they could use this as an excuse to make it in plastic, say that Vashtorr brought back the tech to mass produce them or something.

[Indy Techwisp]

23 hours ago, LSM said:

Likewise, instead of Possessed for TS, I'd go with little three-model Blade Coven units; psychically-thralled, Khopesh-wielding melee Sorcerers on Discs.

 

I believe I've mentioned this elsewhere, but TSons already have their "Exalted" unit(s) in the game: The Exalted Sorc and Exalted Sorc on Disc.

 

A TSons Possessed unit can't exactly slot between the Exalted and "normal" sorcs because then they're just more characters and ideally they shouldn't take up a role that should be filled by a Rubricae (like an Assault Marine Blade Cabal or a Heavy weapon Havoc-like unit).

 

A unit of what is essentially 40k Doomknights is a neat idea but they'd be competing against Tzaangor Enlightened in that role (who have being cheap as hell as a big selling point).

 

I'd rather we get a unit that is more akin to a proper BERSERKER representing TSons lost to the flesh change and possession beyond their ability to control.

[HeadlessCross]

23 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

Conveniently ignoring the two unique terminators, bespoke daemon engines, unique cultists and numerous detachments that mean that they feel like playing death guard and totally different to CSM.

 

There's zero surprises here that you've chosen to ignore all that for a change.

They have one unique Terminator unit. Blightlords are not unique in any sense that a basic Terminator kit doesn't cover what they have besides the grenade launcher. CSM also already had access to the zombies with Typhus and the one FW Sorcerer. 

 

Also the Drone is not unique either, because it was already available to CSM armies from the FW datasheet. 

 

So yeah, none of that is worth losing a bunch of units just to gain 15 characters. 

[Mogger351]

9 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

They have one unique Terminator unit. Blightlords are not unique in any sense that a basic Terminator kit doesn't cover what they have besides the grenade launcher. CSM also already had access to the zombies with Typhus and the one FW Sorcerer. 

 

Also the Drone is not unique either, because it was already available to CSM armies from the FW datasheet. 

 

So yeah, none of that is worth losing a bunch of units just to gain 15 characters. 

Lets play silly beggars with the idea for the moment.

 

• The FW drone is Legends IIRC
• The FW character is legends IIRC

 

So they're both gone regardless.

 

Typhus and plague marines both exist - poxwalkers/zombies have been a bit in/out over the editions.

 

• Blightlords - partial analogy as they absolutely have different loadouts to chaos terminators - partial loss
• Deathshroud - no analogy - pure loss
• Powalkers as above - depends which edition, likely a loss as a general unit
• Blight drone - no analogy - pure loss as noted above unless legends play
• Blight hauler - no analogy - pure loss
• Plagueburst crawler - no analogy - pure loss
• Weird bong terrain - no analogy - no idea if it even ahs rules, pure loss if so

This is ignoring the characters, this is ignoring you're trading the contagion rules for dark pacts, that all but 1 of the detachments would be gone at best.

 

In reality you trade all of that to get some generic chaos marine kits with +1 T on their stats line. Woo. Much excite. 

[01RTB01]

56 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

They have one unique Terminator unit. Blightlords are not unique in any sense that a basic Terminator kit doesn't cover what they have besides the grenade launcher. CSM also already had access to the zombies with Typhus and the one FW Sorcerer. 

 

Also the Drone is not unique either, because it was already available to CSM armies from the FW datasheet. 

 

So yeah, none of that is worth losing a bunch of units just to gain 15 characters. 

 

I'm sorry but I'm sure you wake every day wondering how you can troll on here. 

 

I should know better than to feed you. Genuinely, why do you do this daily? You just thrown contention/ argumentative nonsense for the sake of it. Do you enjoy it? Is it fun?

 

Honestly, I don't get it.

[LSM]

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I believe I've mentioned this elsewhere, but TSons already have their "Exalted" unit(s) in the game: The Exalted Sorc and Exalted Sorc on Disc.

 

A TSons Possessed unit can't exactly slot between the Exalted and "normal" sorcs because then they're just more characters and ideally they shouldn't take up a role that should be filled by a Rubricae (like an Assault Marine Blade Cabal or a Heavy weapon Havoc-like unit).

 

A unit of what is essentially 40k Doomknights is a neat idea but they'd be competing against Tzaangor Enlightened in that role (who have being cheap as hell as a big selling point).

 

I'd rather we get a unit that is more akin to a proper BERSERKER representing TSons lost to the flesh change and possession beyond their ability to control.

 

I'm not super well-versed on TS lore, but the Khenetai Blades were all Sorcerers, right? (In 30k they all have Force Swords and IIRC the Psyker keyword.) Lorefully, their whole deal was that they were psychically linked together so that the group fought as one (instead of as individuals). If one were to lift the concept for a 40k unit, that sounds like it would make a good little 3-man elite Sorcerer unit, rather than a more regular melee Rubricae squad. (And then, because I don't like the idea of straight-lifting 30k concepts for 40k, put them on Discs and... I don't know, give them nine arms or something.

 

//

 

The basic "Thousand Sons Marine" went through an interesting evolution themselves.

• Rogue Trader: the marines without the psychic talent to make use of their knowledge, they were the same as Traitor Marines except that they produced an aura which "Any friendly Wizard-Champion" could tap into for an extra "D6 magic/psychic points".
• 1996: The concept of the Cult Legions is introduced, and in the designer commentary it's actually the "Tzeentchian Sorcerers" who are named as the Cult (alongside "Khorne Berzerkers, Plague Marines, [and] Noise Marines"). The Thousand Sons Marines were the only Cult Troops which required a Cult Character to be present in order to take, but while they were (at this point) "spirit warriors" - souls trapped in their armour - their default loadout was actually just a Bolt Pistol and Frag Grenades. Bolters were an upgrade, and they had full access to the Assault Weapons (ie. melee weapons) list and three models able to take Special or Heavy Weapons. 
• 1999: they became Bolter locked, unable to take any Special/Heavy Weapons (let alone melee weapons).
• 2002: "Inferno Bolts" are new Tzeentch Character wargear (which lets a Bolt Weapon use a Blast Template). Rubrics still Bolter locked. (Note: this is when the whole "nemes/Pharaonic-helmet" look solidified - in '96 and '99 they were still being shown with the regular CSM horns and top knots. I assume this is why Ahriman, a '96 character, has giant horns on his helmet which kind of make his look incongruous with the rest of the modern Thousand Sons.) 
• 2007: Rubrics still Bolter locked, but they gain Inferno Bolts as standard, which now confer AP3.
• 2012: Rubrics still Bolter locked, Inferno Bolts still give AP3.
• 2016: new (first, really) Rubric Marines kit, give them all the option of Warpflamers and one a Soulreaper Cannon.

So while the early days had Rubric's with a bit more personality (full Plasma Pistol and Power Fist, etc. squads!), eventually the idea seemed (to me) to be that these were somewhat "robotic" and therefore... limited.

 

While that can change (or other people can have completely different conceptions to me), it feels like if you start giving Rubricae too broad a remit they lose that identity. 

 

//

 

A Sorcerer who's lost control strikes me as a Spawn. (Or the sort of individual who would have gotten Rubric'd in the first place. Can a Sorcerer end up failing to resist the effect of the Rubric later in their life?)

 

Edited yesterday at 07:13 PM by LSM

[sitnam]

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

A unit of what is essentially 40k Doomknights is a neat idea but they'd be competing against Tzaangor Enlightened in that role (who have being cheap as hell as a big selling point).

 

I don't think the two would preclude each other. If loyalists can have multiple unit types overlapping in ways, I don't see why we can't have 40k Doom Knight heavy cavalry to the Tzaangor light cavalry

[Nephaston]

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I believe I've mentioned this elsewhere, but TSons already have their "Exalted" unit(s) in the game: The Exalted Sorc and Exalted Sorc on Disc.

 

A TSons Possessed unit can't exactly slot between the Exalted and "normal" sorcs because then they're just more characters and ideally they shouldn't take up a role that should be filled by a Rubricae (like an Assault Marine Blade Cabal or a Heavy weapon Havoc-like unit).

 

A unit of what is essentially 40k Doomknights is a neat idea but they'd be competing against Tzaangor Enlightened in that role (who have being cheap as hell as a big selling point).

 

I'd rather we get a unit that is more akin to a proper BERSERKER representing TSons lost to the flesh change and possession beyond their ability to control.

They could also go the route of TS possessed being a failed avenue of fixing the rubric, like stuffing the suits full of brimstone horrors, mixed in with the dust resulting in a swirling fire elemental/dust devil.

Or instead of having the rubric marine become possessed, have them wield possessed weapons shackled to them in an effort to keep the weapon away from others the respective exalted sorcerer doesn't trust while still getting to use them. And while possessed melee weapons would be the usual niche I would love to see a daemon rocket launcher or a marine-portable stormlaser.

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, LSM said:

I'm not super well-versed on TS lore, but the Khenetai Blades were all Sorcerers, right? (In 30k they all have Force Swords and IIRC the Psyker keyword.) Lorefully, their whole deal was that they were psychically linked together so that the group fought as one (instead of as individuals). If one were to lift the concept for a 40k unit, that sounds like it would make a good little 3-man elite Sorcerer unit, rather than a more regular melee Rubricae squad. (And then, because I don't like the idea of straight-lifting 30k concepts for 40k, put them on Discs and... I don't know, give them nine arms or something.

 

During the Horus Heresy (almost) all of the TSons were Psykers, but that didn't protect the majority from the Rubric.

The Scarab Occult Terminators were the former Sekhemet Terminators, some of the strongest Psykers in the Legion but even they had many transform into dust when the Rubric was cast.

In a 40k context, the Blade Cabal would most likely be mostly Rubricae due to how wide ranging the Rubric was.

 

 

1 hour ago, LSM said:

A Sorcerer who's lost control strikes me as a Spawn. (Or the sort of individual who would have gotten Rubric'd in the first place. Can a Sorcerer end up failing to resist the effect of the Rubric later in their life?)

 

There's a few examples of TSons Sorcs just kinda... transforming themselves for no good reason.

Heck, one Sorc intentionally did a big ritual to turn himself into a worm. Why? Who knows.

A Sorc who's "lost control" and devolved entirely would be a Spawn, yes. But a Sorc who has unintentionally done the Eightbound thing to themselves or turned back on the Flesh Change and grown big claws and stuff but not devolved into a meatball would probably need a different statblock than the Spawn.

[Robbienw]

They should do a corrupted version of the Redemptor Dreadnought for CSM.  As they become more common on the battlefield CSM and Dark Mech will be capturing disabled ones and could produce some for chaos marine pilots.  Could be cool.

[NorthernUltramarines]

2 hours ago, Robbienw said:

They should do a corrupted version of the Redemptor Dreadnought for CSM.  As they become more common on the battlefield CSM and Dark Mech will be capturing disabled ones and could produce some for chaos marine pilots.  Could be cool.

 

Completely see your viewpoint, but I'm really happy with how different CSM and Marines are currently. I think for a long time CSM just looked like marines with a few spikes and a worse outlook on life, but the newer stuff really takes it away from the vanilla marine stuff. Lord Discordant, Venomcrawlers, Forgefiends, etc. are a 'cooler' direction for chaos in my opinion. 

 

Especially the Lord Discordant, he might be the coolest Warhammer mini ever made.

[Orange Knight]

2 hours ago, Robbienw said:

They should do a corrupted version of the Redemptor Dreadnought for CSM.  As they become more common on the battlefield CSM and Dark Mech will be capturing disabled ones and could produce some for chaos marine pilots.  Could be cool.

 

I will tell you why I personally don't agree with this.

 

Chaos Marines and the whole Horus Heresy were developed in great part due to the limitations of creating lots of distinctive models for different armies back in the day.

In fact, the Horus Heresy was literally invented as a way to justfiy mirror matches in Epic 40k back in 1997.

 

Chaos Marines were able to re-use a bunch of vehicles and models, and an upgrade sprue was used to make spiky Rhinos and Landraiders. It's where the old "just put spikes on it" meme comes from.

 

GW do not have the same limitations today, and they have actually gone out of their way to make the ranges more and more distinctive as time has gone on.

I don't want to see a Redemptor with spiky bits on it.

[Vassakov]

Yeah, agreed with the above. There's loads of cool design space for CSM that isn't just "Marines toys with spikes."

 

I think the core CSM range is actually amongst the best in the game, especially if you're happy to use some of the new Heresy stuff to avoid having to build the ancient Rhino and Land Raider kits which are definitely showing their age. Then you've got the cool Daemon Engines, the Legionaire/Chosen/Havoc/Terminator core is great and whilst the characters are a bit medium now, few other ranges encourage kitbashing more so there's plenty to entertain you there. Raptors are a bit old, but we know they are getting a new kit in a few months so whatever. That really just leaves bikes as a unit to update in the core range.

 

In terms of expansion - more Legion specific stuff. A Word Bearers apostate squad with a load of upgrades for a mini-Dark Apostle and a Possessed bodyguard or two a la Zardu Layak and flamers or something as a call back to the Ashen Circle. An Iron Warriors Siege unit. Alpha Legion... whatever. Inflitratey snipers maybe?

 

Then some new characters - again, each Legion should have at least one like the Loyalists do. It boggles my mind that we haven't got minis for characters such as Honsou, Dark Apostle Marduk or First Claw. There is a rumour engine that looks like Solomon Akurra, and we seem to have confirmation that he's getting a book in 2026 so maybe that's one down. Just pray it's not a legends tie in I guess!

 

Then there's the Cult Legions. Not going to rehash the arguments, everyone knows that WE and EC in particular are half-ranges at this point. Hopefully they'll get Votann and SoB style second waves in the next 18months or so.

[Robbienw]

I think there should still be some overlap between CSM and normal SM though. 

 

Saying it was only the same back in the day because of model production is a strawman argument - that hasn't been the case for a couple of decades anyway and back in the day was only really the case for original Adeptus Titanicus stuff and 40k tanks - the majority of 40k chaos marine models were always unique.  The fluff is what is is now, both CSM and SM came from the same root via civil war.  That will not change.

 

Some key parts of the fluff are that not all CSM are legion descended (some are more recent renegade successor chapters or smaller groups from one) and that some groups of CSM acquire equipment by raiding imperial facilities and taking battlefield salvage.  There is no reason for them not to continue to do so, and no reason for some loyalist marines to go renegade in future, so it makes sense some more recent stuff will show up with CSM eventually.  You can still make it look visually interesting and distinct, like helbrute vs standard Castaferrum dreadnought for example.  Some of the recent CSM model do actually have visual similarities with MKX marines, such as the Warpsmith, Chosen, Havocs and Noise Marines, so its not a problem visually to have a chaos Redemptor.

 

Giving the CSM a corrupted version of a Leviathan makes the least sense because it was a rarer maintenance heavy dreadnought from the heresy era, so its unlikely they would have any significant numbers.  If anything the Contemptor would make more sense as it was more prevalent (although by accepting it you would defeat your own argument of visual distinction by copy and pasting something from 30k).

 

[Orange Knight]

13 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

The fluff is what is is now, both CSM and SM came from the same root via civil war.  That will not change.

 

 

 

Maybe yes, maybe no.

Enough time has passed that the two can now be fully distinctive, more or less. Chaos have been a lot more active in the lore for a long time, and this means they would potentially burn though whatever vehicles/resources they had from the age of the Heresy. Whatever remains could be held together by the powers of Chaos. 

 

Of course this would mean that GW would need to release more models. Look at the Blight Hauler, Plague Burst Crawler, etc for the Death Guard. These have no loyalist analogues. I think all Legions should go down this path.

 

A unique, corrupted Contemptor is actually a great idea because the model doesn't exist for the 40k loyalists outside of Legends anymore. And the kit can be suitably currupted/bloated so that it looks distinctive enough from the 30k variant. I don't just want to see a spiky Contemptor. It should be bigger, mutated and fleshy or something like that. Either case, when it stands across the tabletop from a Redemptor, the kits wouldn't be sharing a base model and would be distinct.

Edited 8 hours ago by Orange Knight

[Indy Techwisp]

If CSM (and Cult Marines) end up getting another, not as fleshy Dreadnought then I'd prefer it to be a Contemptor than a Leviathan, simply because the Contemptor is a more iconic "Heresy era" dred which the Imperium no longer use outside of their own Heresy holdover (Custodes).

CSM could probably still have a Fleshy Boxnaught in the form of an updated (and upscaled) Helbrute, but it would be good to have a contrast between the Mutated as Hell CSM and the Clean but Spiky CSM each having a dred of their own.

 

Would also open the door for GW to make more profits because those Horus Heresy Legion Contemptor upgrades were very popular and if they could do a more "permanent" production run of them for 40k they'd probably make even more money off it, which is an incentive to actually go ahead and do it.

[Orange Knight]

I'm hoping that in the next edition, when the Landraider gets updated, they take the opportuniy to release two different kits for the Loyalists and Traitors.

 

Give us a clean looking, sharper Landraider for the loyalists. More high-tech looking optics and what not. Small touches like that.

 

For the traitors, it would be cool to see a Proteus pattern Landraider, except longer so the profile is roughly the same from the sides. Something that would look distinctive at a glance, with the exposed tracks going all the way around.

 

[Indy Techwisp]

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I'm hoping that in the next edition, when the Landraider gets updated, they take the opportuniy to release two different kits for the Loyalists and Traitors.

 

Give us a clean looking, sharper Landraider for the loyalists. More high-tech looking optics and what not. Small touches like that.

 

For the traitors, it would be cool to see a Proteus pattern Landraider, except longer so the profile is roughly the same from the sides. Something that would look distinctive at a glance, with the exposed tracks going all the way around.

 

 

I would joke about the Caul Pattern Grav Landraider, but we literally already got that and barely anyone noticed it.

 

I personally would prefer Chaos keep their Landraiders with the current overall silhouette, even if Loyalists change up the shape of them somewhat.

Then again, changing up the shape of the iconic Landraider feels like asking for trouble.

[Orange Knight]

Just now, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I would joke about the Caul Pattern Grav Landraider, but we literally already got that and barely anyone noticed it.

 

I personally would prefer Chaos keep their Landraiders with the current overall silhouette, even if Loyalists change up the shape of them somewhat.

Then again, changing up the shape of the iconic Landraider feels like asking for trouble.

 

I think they should both keep the general shape, but they shouldn't just be the same kit except one has spikes.

It would be worse, imo, if the loyalists get a better looking, bigger and sharper Landraider, but the Chaos variant wasn't updated at all.

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

 

I think they should both keep the general shape, but they shouldn't just be the same kit except one has spikes.

It would be worse, imo, if the loyalists get a better looking, bigger and sharper Landraider, but the Chaos variant wasn't updated at all.

 

I don't mean not updated.

I mean not just changing it out for the HH version (or if it does change over having optional bits in the kit to put the top back on the tracks).

 

That said, by "sharper" Landraider, I did interpret that as literally making the Loyalist Landraider less rounded and more pointy.

[Orange Knight]

10 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

That said, by "sharper" Landraider, I did interpret that as literally making the Loyalist Landraider less rounded and more pointy.

 

No no, I just means that it looks good lol.

[Jukkiz]

What Chaos space marines needs is chaos dreadnought. Not hellbrute.

Keep hellbrute in other legions, but not everyone. I don´t really see Hellbrutes in IW or TS legions, thoughlore has seen how TS hellbrutes are made... 

Give us full posing options like redemptor has, i don´t need more static hellbrutes with just different arms like they´re trying to flap them to fly away.