New Chaos Models

[Tastyfish]

Today's Grotmas fiction has an interesting bit of prophecy in it.

 

"‘The black sun burns cursed iron… and lights the furnace of vengeance… steel and flesh and blood and ichor tear and flow…  and from ruin shall rise infinite geometries of spite…’ "

 

Given that what we known of Medregard (the Iron Warrior's Daemonworld) is that it has a white sky and black sun. 

[LSM]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Chaos Marines and the whole Horus Heresy were developed in great part due to the limitations of creating lots of distinctive models for different armies back in the day.

In fact, the Horus Heresy was literally invented as a way to justfiy mirror matches in Epic 40k back in 1997.

 

Agreed, just wanted to push the date back a bit. Space Marine: Epic Battles in the Age of Heresy (aka Epic) was 1989, and itself was spun out of the original 1988's Adeptus Titanicus. (Only one year after 1987's Rogue Trader!)

 

So the Horus Heresy was (foundationally) all laid out nearly from the beginning, as well as in the two Realm of Chaos books (88/90). But yes: supposedly as a reasoning behind the mirror match of Titans and Space Marines (though Eldar and Orks were quickly added, and then the 2nd edition of Space Marine in 1992 moved the game into 40k and added Squats, Chaos, and 'Nids).

 

//

 

Couple cute things I spotted while double checking dates:

• The Eye of Horus on the back of the Adeptus Titanicus box is straight-up a generic Egyptian "Eye of Horus".
• The little fluff blurb on the same box includes a battle between Loyalist and Traitor Titan Legions. The Loyalists are the Fire Wasps with support from... the Blood Drinkers Space Marines Chapter. 
• Pertinent to previous posts, the 1992 2nd edition boxart had 5th Company Ultramarines (their right arms are painted black) fighting Thousand Sons, the latter of which still have their goofy Eagle Helmets and a pre-Rubric-lore tentacle.

[Orange Knight]

I appreciate the correction. I was extremely fuzzy on the dates but remember the lore behind a lot of this stuff back in the day. I think the 1st time I came across Epic myself was in the 90s, via a hand-me-down 2nd hand set.

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

Seems odd to mot do Obliterators and Mutilators as a dual kit. 

 

Hey ho, at least the Mutilators are coming back. I know a couple of people who've missed them. 

[DeadFingers]

Just now, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

Seems odd to mot do Obliterators and Mutilators as a dual kit. 

Depends on what they do with them, appearance and lore-wise. They might not be just melee Obliterators anymore, or they might be also be based on the Obliterator virus but be too different in appearance to Obliterators to share a kit.

 

And I say this as someone that would very much like to see a multipart Obliterator kit.

[TheMawr]

8 minutes ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

Seems odd to mot do Obliterators and Mutilators as a dual kit. 

 

Hey ho, at least the Mutilators are coming back. I know a couple of people who've missed them. 

 

While @DeadFingers point is very true, we also dont know they wont be.

Boole did mention Obliterators specifically and has quickly proven to be a quite reliable rumormonger ( if not a bit of an unique one.. I think this is the first time a self-proclaimed GW employee actually had the rumors to back it up.)

 

I assumed that the steadfast companions of obliterators he mentioned was the venomcrawler, but it could be referencing Mutilators and them being a dual-kit instead.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

For the Dreadnought conversation, I do want to point out that in SM2, the Helbrute and Redemptor are much closer in size on screen than the models are, and the scene where the two get handsy in a tunnel is pretty iconic for the campaign.  So a simple upscale of the current model is definitely a possibility. 

[Mogger351]

5 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

For the Dreadnought conversation, I do want to point out that in SM2, the Helbrute and Redemptor are much closer in size on screen than the models are, and the scene where the two get handsy in a tunnel is pretty iconic for the campaign.  So a simple upscale of the current model is definitely a possibility. 

Possibly, it's more that a lot of people don't like the fleshy look and it doesn't fit all chaos factions well.

[Indy Techwisp]

16 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

For the Dreadnought conversation, I do want to point out that in SM2, the Helbrute and Redemptor are much closer in size on screen than the models are, and the scene where the two get handsy in a tunnel is pretty iconic for the campaign.  So a simple upscale of the current model is definitely a possibility. 

 

Helbrutes are a staple part of the Lore now, so I doubt they're gonna just snap them away.

That said, more variety is nice and LSM have 4 (technically 5) varieties of Dred to play with vs CSM's single non-legends offering, so I feel we are due another CSM Dred.

And if it's one that's usable for all the Cult Marines as well, that's a just a benefit (tho ideally it's not also a big Flesh monster).

 

I am definitely not projecting my desire for a Rubricae/Psyker Dreadnought onto everyone else here, I can definitely see the other 4 Legions having a non-flesh monster dred...

EC would probably like a nice clean "perfect" Dred, right?

WE and DG would probably be OK with another Flesh monster but WE at least canonically still have some pre-nails/early nails dreds still kicking around... DG I'm less sure on, but I know painters could probably do something good with a more clean dred.

 

And obviously base CSM have a couple factions who definitely still use Contemptors and the like, such as the Word Bearers.

Edited yesterday at 05:00 PM by Indy Techwisp

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Ah, but if the fleshy Helbrute is upscaled to match the Primaris Dreadnought chassis size, then people running less-corrupted "Helbrutes" could just run converted Dreadnoughts.  Do you honestly think that GW would re-port Heresy era models into 40K after taking them out to Legends?  And especially to give them to Chaos, instead of to the poster boy loyalists?

 

I understand my reasoning may not appel to everyone, but I'm also trying to think like GW instead.

[Indy Techwisp]

2 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

Ah, but if the fleshy Helbrute is upscaled to match the Primaris Dreadnought chassis size, then people running less-corrupted "Helbrutes" could just run converted Dreadnoughts.  Do you honestly think that GW would re-port Heresy era models into 40K after taking them out to Legends?  And especially to give them to Chaos, instead of to the poster boy loyalists?

 

I understand my reasoning may not appel to everyone, but I'm also trying to think like GW instead.

 

Just to check, by "converted Dreadnought" you don't mean converting a Chaos Redemptor, right?

 

In regards to re-porting Heresy models, I doubt they'd just put the same HH dreds back in (scale isn't quite the same, for starters), but I could see them doing a new 40k specific Contemptor style Dred for Chaos. Probably not actually a full Contemptor, but a Contemptor that's been repaired from slightly mismatched bits, salvaged parts from other Dreds and that classic Chaos Chainmail they all seem to have for some reason (and then maybe some Cult specific options for customising like the Demon Prince kit).

[LSM]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Helbrutes are a staple part of the Lore now, so I doubt they're gonna just snap them away.

That said, more variety is nice and LSM have 4 (technically 4) varieties of Dred to play with vs CSM's single non-legends offering, so I feel we are due another CSM Dred.

And if it's one that's usable for all the Cult Marines as well, that's a just a benefit (tho ideally it's not also a big Flesh monster).

 

I am definitely not projecting my desire for a Rubricae/Psyker Dreadnought onto everyone else here, I can definitely see the other 4 Legions having a non-flesh monster dred...

 

Amusingly, Emperor's Children are the one Cult Legion without the Helbrute and yet have (perhaps) that best reason to embrace their fleshiness.

 

(In older lore, Chaos Dreadnoughts were insane in part because of the sensory deprivation, which they could not mollify with lies of "duty" and "it's an honour" the way a loyalist could. The Third Legion, being made up of depraved sensory addicts, were then particularly insane when fated to never truly experience the galaxy again. So Helbrutes - being all fleshy and mutated, would allow an Emperor's Children marine to keep-on-keeping-on a bit better...)

 

Although, having said that, I've looked at the lore section in the 6th/8th Codexes (they're copy/pasted) and the lore is actually quite incongruous with the Helbrute model - still noting that pilots are driven mad because: "They abhor the thought of such a miserable half-life locked away in a dank and imprisoning womb, where they can no longer drink in the sights of battle with their own eyes or feel the kick of a boltgun in their fist... Between battles, the sarcophagus containing the pilot is disconnected and dragged clear of its armoured shell to lie inert and seething in the darkness." That lore just doesn't seem at all consistent with how they look - that's the same as for a Chaos Dreadnought...

 

Actually, it is almost exactly the same as 4th edition's Chaos Dreadnought lore: "The Chaos Space Marines abhor the thought of a half-life locked away inside the imprisoning womb of a Dreadnought, where they can no longer see battle with their own eyes or feel the kick of a bolter in their fist... Between battles, the sarcophagus containing the trapped body of the Dreadnought pilot is disconnected and dragged clear of its armoured shell."

 

LOL, when they updated from Chaos Dreadnoughts to Helbrutes they didn't even create new lore for them!

 

//

 

On the Thousand Sons Dreadnought note, I like a lot of Clint Langley's art of the Legion, including his scarab-head dred:

Spoiler

 

Hopefully the rumoured Cult aesthetics options on the Defiler (and future Helbrute?) will show some similar creativity. 

 

//

 

I do wonder if a new Defiler will be smaller than the current one?

 

The 160mm base (which it doesn't ship with, but is now recommended to be on) is pretty huge, and can make it tricky to move around the board. (Even with being able to walk through walls, it's has a ~6.3" base with a Movement of 8", so it basically has to start right in front of a wall in order to clear it. It's ability to walk over friendly Monsters and Vehicles is a bit useless for the same reason - what Monster or Vehicle has a 40mm base?)

 

Edited yesterday at 06:00 PM by LSM

[Marshal Reinhard]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

A unique, corrupted Contemptor is actually a great idea because the model doesn't exist for the 40k loyalists outside of Legends anymore. And the kit can be suitably currupted/bloated so that it looks distinctive enough from the 30k variant. I don't just want to see a spiky Contemptor. It should be bigger, mutated and fleshy or something like that. Either case, when it stands across the tabletop from a Redemptor, the kits wouldn't be sharing a base model and would be distinct.

Unique corrupted Leviathan. Same situation as the contemptor, but more analogous and the same size as the Redemptor without actually being one, sporting slightly different weapons. Avoids the situation we have now where the Redemptor and its variant completely towers over the current hellbrute.

[DeadFingers]

1 hour ago, TheMawr said:

 

While @DeadFingers point is very true, we also dont know they wont be.

Boole did mention Obliterators specifically and has quickly proven to be a quite reliable rumormonger ( if not a bit of an unique one.. I think this is the first time a self-proclaimed GW employee actually had the rumors to back it up.)

 

I assumed that the steadfast companions of obliterators he mentioned was the venomcrawler, but it could be referencing Mutilators and them being a dual-kit instead.

Oh you're absolutely right, I completely forgot about Boole's rumours.

 

Boy, if these next few months we get to see Huron, a Red Corsairs command squad, a Red Corsairs elite unit, an Iron Warriors upgrade sprue, new Defiler, new Mutilators and standalone Obliterators, all on top of the Raptors we already know about, that's going to be quite the wave for CSM. And it'll make me even more confused as to why Bikers aren't part of it but left for next edition, allegedly.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

45 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Just to check, by "converted Dreadnought" you don't mean converting a Chaos Redemptor, right?

 

In regards to re-porting Heresy models, I doubt they'd just put the same HH dreds back in (scale isn't quite the same, for starters), but I could see them doing a new 40k specific Contemptor style Dred for Chaos. Probably not actually a full Contemptor, but a Contemptor that's been repaired from slightly mismatched bits, salvaged parts from other Dreds and that classic Chaos Chainmail they all seem to have for some reason (and then maybe some Cult specific options for customising like the Demon Prince kit).

 

I mean converting/painting a Redemptor or Brutalis to represent a non-corrupted Chaos Legion force.  Because if it's a corrupted force, the theoretical up-scaled Helbrute fills that need, and making a loyalist Dread into a traitor Dread is a lot easier than de-flesh-ifying a Helbrute.

 

As for re-porting Heresy models, it's not just about the model, but the rules.  I'm trying to think of any other form a new Chaos Dreadnought could take aside from a new Helbrute, but every idea is either "re-port from Legends" or "that's already covered by another model."  

[grailkeeper]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I think they should both keep the general shape, but they shouldn't just be the same kit except one has spikes.

It would be worse, imo, if the loyalists get a better looking, bigger and sharper Landraider, but the Chaos variant wasn't updated at all.

 

 

Its not a real chaos tank if somebody hasn't accidentally drawn blood by trying to pick one up. 

We've all got puncture marks from those spikes at some point. 

[Scribe]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Maybe yes, maybe no.

Enough time has passed that the two can now be fully distinctive, more or less. Chaos have been a lot more active in the lore for a long time, and this means they would potentially burn though whatever vehicles/resources they had from the age of the Heresy. Whatever remains could be held together by the powers of Chaos. 

 

There are a whole lot of people who do not want to lose that shared history, which has been reinforced canon since forever.

 

Not all of us want to get down the path of hideous grav tanks and suspect 'new' lore.

[Indy Techwisp]

3 hours ago, LSM said:

It's ability to walk over friendly Monsters and Vehicles is a bit useless for the same reason - what Monster or Vehicle has a 40mm base?)

 

TSons new Robots and I think that's it.

[Lay]

5 hours ago, LSM said:

LOL, when they updated from Chaos Dreadnoughts to Helbrutes they didn't even create new lore for them!

 

Forgeworld made up some distinctions between Hellbrutes and Chaos Dreads in Imperial Armour 13, back when they still sold their own boxy Chaos Dreads alongside GW's new fleshy one.

 

Basically the old metallic Chaos Dreadnoughts were renamed "Ferrum Infernus" Dreadnoughts, which were generally more "sane" and could display Legion-typical behavior. (Interestingly, that lore retroactively aligns well with a lot of depictions of Chaos Dreadnoughts in Black Library novels in which were often pretty lucid, like the Warmonger in the Word Bearers trilogy or Berossus from Dead Sky, Black Sun).

 

FW also gave Sonic Dreadnoughts a separate entry which notes that "Only those of the so-called Noise Marines who have truly mastered the excess of sonic damnation are ever interred within a Sonic Dreadnought, for those who prove unworthy or unsuitable are likely to unleash the full fury of their weaponry upon the warband they serve and to slay scores of their erstwhile kin in the process."

 

By comparison, Helbrutes are pretty much just armored Chaos Spawn which is why they're the same in every Legion.

[Robbienw]

20 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Maybe yes, maybe no.

Enough time has passed that the two can now be fully distinctive, more or less. Chaos have been a lot more active in the lore for a long time, and this means they would potentially burn though whatever vehicles/resources they had from the age of the Heresy. Whatever remains could be held together by the powers of Chaos. 

 

 

Definitely yes.  It will not change, to think otherwise is a fundamental misunderstanding of what CSM are.  At their core they will always be a spikey mutated dark mirror of a loyalist marine.  The core trooper of the Space Marines is a line marine with a boltgun.  The core trooper of the Chaos Space Marines is a line marine with a boltgun, in spikier distorted armour.

 

Your argument is a bit is a bit contradictory though, Contemptors for CSM wouldn't be distinctive as loyalist marines still have some and its a prominent 30k model.  So would just be another dark mirror of what SM have.  Like a Chaos Redemptor.  Might as well just stick with the Helbrute.

Edited 8 hours ago by Robbienw

[Orange Knight]

35 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

 

 

 

 

Your argument is a bit is a bit contradictory though, Contemptors for CSM wouldn't be distinctive as loyalist marines still have some and its a prominent 30k model.  So would just be another dark mirror of what SM have.  Like a Chaos Redemptor.  Might as well just stick with the Helbrute.

 

How so? I'm suggesting a completely unique model, with unique proportions and parts. Not just a loyalist kit with an extra sprue of spikes and skulls.

[Robbienw]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

How so? I'm suggesting a completely unique model, with unique proportions and parts. Not just a loyalist kit with an extra sprue of spikes and skulls.

 

Then you aren't actually suggesting a Contemptor.

[ZeroWolf]

I think he means that visually it'll look like a corrupted contemptor but it'll be completely its own thing rather than reuse any of the HH sprues...Which I don't think would be a GW move to be honest given the existence of a plastic contemptor (they'd just shove in a upgrade frame or two) ala their knight releases, but then again, this is the same company who built a wall between using HH kits in 40k, so what do I know?

 

I can understand both sides of the CSM debate here to a degree. I'm just torn on what solution GW would come up with if they deemed it a problem (this is the most important part as if GW thinks the direction of the range is fine, then that's that).

[TheMawr]

Everytime I came across this in my "unclear if official or fanmade" folders I have been meaning to ask, but now there actually is a proper topic for it.

Are these official unrealised concepts or fan work ?

 

 

obviously, I could also use google-fu, a deep dive would probably give the answer as well. 

But Id really love both to be real CSM releases.. especially the Apostate with hounds.

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

 

Then you aren't actually suggesting a Contemptor.

 

Are you wilfully ignoring the points I've made and what I've suggested?

 

You are aware of the fact that two similar models can have different sizes. You've seen the old and new Terminators, yes?

 

Now try to imagine a bigger Contemptor. A whole new kit, based on the old one, but entirely new. "Empowered by Chaos" is the reason for the difference in size. You remember how Horus got bigger when he fell to Chaos? It's in the lore.

 

To me, this is a more exciting idea than having the same model as the loyalists, but with spikes. Also, GW haven't released a dedicated 40k kit that is shared across both Loyalists and Traitors since before 5th edition.

Edited 4 hours ago by Orange Knight