New Chaos Models

[Scribe]

13 minutes ago, Wispy said:

Dunno what the upgrade kits entail, but the Cult legions definitely need better access to central Chaos Space Marine stuff. I see no reason why DG, WE, TS, EC can't take things like Havocs, Raptors, or even Legionaries. Space Wolves have two flavours of unique battleline infantry but they can still build & deploy all the flavors of Intercessor.

 

 

Because for as much as people complain about non-SM/Imperium factions getting the short end, GW simply cannot get out of its own way when it comes to CSM, and has been unable to just do it right outside of very tiny 'end of edition' windows, since 3.5.

[Dark Shepherd]

It better have some ultramarines on the base

[Ahzek451]

Pretty sure he said there is a new Calgar that mounts on the base shooting up at the defiler. 

[gaurdian31]

5 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

Pretty sure he said there is a new Calgar that mounts on the base shooting up at the defiler. 

But is it Lieutenant Calgar? Space Marines need more Lieutenants.

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Wispy said:

Dunno what the upgrade kits entail, but the Cult legions definitely need better access to central Chaos Space Marine stuff. I see no reason why DG, WE, TS, EC can't take things like Havocs, Raptors, or even Legionaries. Space Wolves have two flavours of unique battleline infantry but they can still build & deploy all the flavors of Intercessor.

 

Raptors historically aren't legion units, they're mercenary warbands who fight for loot/power, so there wouldn't be "death guard raptors" for example. Likewise a legionnaire is a generic chaos marine, a death guard legionnaire is the plague marine. The fluff for what legions have/do has changed over the years and when you join changes perceptions. Death guard bikers are a big one, people clamour for them because nurgle marked bikes were t6 at some point. Completely divorced from the fluff.

[Jscarlos18]

5 hours ago, DeadFingers said:

Bit weird that they'd be releasing Huron, a Red Corsairs command squad and a Red corsairs elite unit and then double down on CSM with an Iron Warriors themed release that includes a new Defiler, new Mutilators, and the Iron Warriors upgrade sprue, all of this before 11th, but apparently save the Bikers for 11th.

Maybe so CSM get something for 11th, instead of all the updates at the tail-end of 10th and nothing next edition?

[Tymell]

4 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Unironically it still remains one of my favourite kits.

 

Same. Much as I'm interested to see a new take on it, I do fear that given GW's current model trends, it'll lose a lot of that kit utility and flexibility.

 

9 hours ago, gaurdian31 said:

and the bikers!

 

[LSM]

4 hours ago, Wispy said:

Dunno what the upgrade kits entail, but the Cult legions definitely need better access to central Chaos Space Marine stuff. I see no reason why DG, WE, TS, EC can't take things like Havocs, Raptors, or even Legionaries. Space Wolves have two flavours of unique battleline infantry but they can still build & deploy all the flavors of Intercessor.

 

To echo Mogger, the original concept of the Cult Legions was: "hey... what if there was an entire army made up of the Cult Troops." In the 1996 Codex: Chaos, if Ahriman was leading your army you could only take Tzeentch Characters, Tzeentch Daemons, Thousand Sons Troops/Terminators, and Vehicles, and if Khârn was leading your army then only Khorne Characters, Khorne Daemons, Khorne Berzerker Troops/Terminators, and Vehicles. (Death Guard and Emperor's Children didn't have characters.)

 

Plague Marines/Death Guard had lore about not really using Heavy Weapons, instead specialising in trench/Space Hulk/bunker clearing warfare (which is why when they got some in 2017, they were primarily Grenade Launchers and Heavy ~Flamers, keeping on theme). Raptors (and Obliterators) were originally their own Cults.

 

Then the 2007 Codex opened things up, by allowing unmarked units to take Icons to essentially give them Marks (mostly - Obliterators couldn't take Icons, and if the Icon Bearer was killed then the unit lost the Mark's benefits). The 2012 Codex then went whole hog, allowing everyone to take Marks; having Marked units and Cult Troops side by side in the same armies. In the 2012 short story The Masters, Bidding there's even mention of Typhus having unmarked forces in his Death Guard army (let alone Nurgle Marked Legionaries).

 

But the Cult Legion books seem to have bent back to that older, late Nineties/early Oughts concept.

 

Edited 19 hours ago by LSM

[Rain]

I want new Defilers and Helbrutes with Legion options so badly, even if the Legion options are purely cosmetic. Especially as it would mean that EC would get more datasheets, which they very sorely need.

[HeadlessCross]

6 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

Raptors historically aren't legion units, they're mercenary warbands who fight for loot/power, so there wouldn't be "death guard raptors" for example. Likewise a legionnaire is a generic chaos marine, a death guard legionnaire is the plague marine. The fluff for what legions have/do has changed over the years and when you join changes perceptions. Death guard bikers are a big one, people clamour for them because nurgle marked bikes were t6 at some point. Completely divorced from the fluff.

It's not divorced from the fluff if people will also claim the Chaos Legions actively recruit fallen Chapters, along with the fact the Daemon Primarchs haven't been doing any leading for thousands of years. Death Guard Raptors and Bikers are not unfounded. 

[gideon stargreave]

4 hours ago, LSM said:

echo Mogger, the original concept of the Cult Legions was: "hey... what if there was an entire army made up of the Cult Troops." In the 1996 Codex: Chaos, if Ahriman was leading your army you could only take Tzeentch Characters, Tzeentch Daemons, Thousand Sons Troops/Terminators, and Vehicles, and if Khârn was leading your army then only Khorne Characters, Khorne Daemons, Khorne Berzerker Troops/Terminators, and Vehicles. (Death Guard and Emperor's Children didn't have characters

Surely the glory days of the chaos codex! 
it’s worth noting here that Khârn could be an exalted champion in a mixed force.

Heroes could also take bikes and be given marks and bike squads could be led by them. Though the bikers (and other regular csm) did not take marks, though I remember lots of cool beserker bike conversions at the time 

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

It's not divorced from the fluff if people will also claim the Chaos Legions actively recruit fallen Chapters, along with the fact the Daemon Primarchs haven't been doing any leading for thousands of years. Death Guard Raptors and Bikers are not unfounded. 

The primarchs are irrelevant to that point, a nurgle aligned chapter or warband would either be represented by the CSM book if theyre not that far gone or the death guard book if they are very far gone. 

 

Raptors are noted for pote tislly worshipping a minor chaos power as their patron God, so no they wouldn't have death guard raptors if so. The legions way of war didn't promote much use of bikes and that fell out of favour further after the fall.

 

This is a bit of a duality of 40k players moment. Either people want their faction to have fun unique stuff and character, but then also refuse to not have something to help carve out the identity. Deathguard are in a very good place compared to the other 3, but the answer is to get more kits and establish more of a unique faction.

 

Here's the marks table for 3.5 as a refresher. Worthy of note deathguard havocs were a special weapons squad specifically as well.

 

 

[Indy Techwisp]

With the direction 40k is going I feel any "stolen from CSM" units would need to be native to the Cult Marine codex going forwards (I'm surprised CSM still get to just steal Cult Marines tbh).

There's definitely some options from base CSM that each Cult Marine faction could do with, but it wouldn't be as simple as just souping them in.

[Xirix]

I wonder what it's going to end up looking like. I never personally liked the actual look of the Defiler, but it was a great kit for conversions. (Like the iconic Scorpion conversions etc) It was also neat how the legs and arms were so posable because of the ball socket, I'd be surprised if it'll keep that kind of modulation though.

[Indy Techwisp]

I personally hope it retains the option to just put a Hatch on top instead of the Daemon poking out.

[OnePaulMurray]

2 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

The primarchs are irrelevant to that point, a nurgle aligned chapter or warband would either be represented by the CSM book if theyre not that far gone or the death guard book if they are very far gone. 

 

Raptors are noted for pote tislly worshipping a minor chaos power as their patron God, so no they wouldn't have death guard raptors if so. The legions way of war didn't promote much use of bikes and that fell out of favour further after the fall.

 

This is a bit of a duality of 40k players moment. Either people want their faction to have fun unique stuff and character, but then also refuse to not have something to help carve out the identity. Deathguard are in a very good place compared to the other 3, but the answer is to get more kits and establish more of a unique faction.

 

Here's the marks table for 3.5 as a refresher. Worthy of note deathguard havocs were a special weapons squad specifically as well.

 

 

Totally agree with this. The thing that makes factions interesting is that they're different, and not just by them having a +1 somewhere that makes an existing unit more effective. The things they don't have define them as much as what they do.

 

To which end, really the answer is that all the distinct Space Marine chapters should lose access to units when they have an analogue added.

 

Exactly how you would do that I don't immediately know, because you would want to allow people to model successor chapters and still access detachments, but maybe something like if you had a battleline unit of one type then you couldn't use another? Ditto with something like terminators and an honour guard type. 

[Valkia the Bloody]

Great news.

I am not very much into the Red Corsairs, but after reading the ADB books, I am aware of the links between us Night Lords and the Master of the Maelstrom- plus there will be great opportunities for conversions (I hope). 

[LSM]

5 hours ago, OnePaulMurray said:

Totally agree with this. The thing that makes factions interesting is that they're different, and not just by them having a +1 somewhere that makes an existing unit more effective. The things they don't have define them as much as what they do.

 

To which end, really the answer is that all the distinct Space Marine chapters should lose access to units when they have an analogue added.

 

Exactly how you would do that I don't immediately know, because you would want to allow people to model successor chapters and still access detachments, but maybe something like if you had a battleline unit of one type then you couldn't use another? Ditto with something like terminators and an honour guard type. 

 

In 3rd's Codex: Armageddon (and the Index Astartes articles) they'd just provide lists of what units could be taken.

 

Like, as you suggest, Black Templars had 'Black Templar Assault Squad', 'Black Templar Bike Squadron', etc and then couldn't take 'Assault Squad', 'Bike Squadron + Scout Bike Squadron', etc

 

Or Salamanders had stuff like 'Salamander Librarian', 'Salamander Terminator Squad', etc instead of 'Librarian', 'Terminator Squad + Assault Terminator Squad', etc

 

Their special units were present in Codex: Armageddon, and then their list referred you to entries in Codex: Space Marines for everything else on it. But it did not give access to the entirety of Codex: Space Marines. To a degree, certain supplements already do this (Black Templars disallowing Psykers and a bunch of generic tanks, etc), they just don't curb things as hard as they used to.

 

(I assume it may be because, having taken those options out of the metaphorical box, it would kick up a huge ruckus to put them back into said box. You'd probably have to do it slowly, one unit per edition going to Legends. Of course, the Blood Angels supplement killed a bunch of stuff, so... maybe they could.)

 

//

 

8 hours ago, gideon stargreave said:

Surely the glory days of the chaos codex! 
it’s worth noting here that Khârn could be an exalted champion in a mixed force.

Heroes could also take bikes and be given marks and bike squads could be led by them. Though the bikers (and other regular csm) did not take marks, though I remember lots of cool beserker bike conversions at the time 

 

Yeah, Khârn and Ahriman could freelance in another's warband, as the lore of the time was that all the Cult Legions were shattered and only very rarely formed into armies on their own -  the vast majority of the time, you'd only see them as small groups plying their trade in other forces. (Subsequently, even if an army was, for example, Night Lords, their little Berzerker contingent might be painted as World Eaters, their little Plague Marine contingent as Death Guard, Thousand Sons as Thousand Sons, and Noise Marines in the Emperor's Children's various pastels - although the Noise Marine models were 1997, I believe, and so missed the Codex.)

 

The forces led by Khârn or Ahriman, though, were World Eaters and Thousand Sons armies - and so heavily restricted.

 

While you could give a Champion a Mark and have them lead a squad, the Mark itself didn't apply to the squad. (For example, the Mark of Slaanesh notes that if a character is leading a squad and said squad is forced to Flee, the character is not affected and will stay and fight - separating from the squad he was leading.)

 

It wasn't until the 2001 Index/2002 Codex that you actually had squads of Plague Marine Havocs (though note: no Heavy Weapons), Khorne Berzerker Bikers, etc.

 

//

 

7 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

The primarchs are irrelevant to that point, a nurgle aligned chapter or warband would either be represented by the CSM book if theyre not that far gone or the death guard book if they are very far gone...

 

Agree, though I'll note that I prefer the world we were living in of 8th and 9th, where we had (three) Cult Legion books as well as a strong "godly" presence in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

 

Which is to say, if someone really wanted to play "the Plague Marine army", they had Codex: Death Guard, but you could still do a fully Nurgle CSM force (like The Purge).

 

Now, in 10th, Marks are essentially gone from CSMs. Pactbound Zealots has them as a Detachment Rule, but to play that you really need to be mixing marks; so if someone wants to play as The Purge (or The Scourged, or Blood Disciples, or Flawless Host, etc) they either have to be okay with having no real godly theming, play as a quarter of a Detachment, or play them as a Cult Legion.

 

Which then (I think) contributes to Wispy et al's feeling that the Cult Legion books should be more "Marked books" than "Cult books". There's fluff and themes to the Death Guard, whereby it makes sense that their mass Infantry don't use traditional Heavy Weaponry (instead preferring things that clear tight spaces, like Grenade Launchers and ~Flamers), don't use Bikes, don't use Jump Packs, and (historically) didn't "Rhino rush". They're all about that Zone Mortalis lifestyle. 

 

As someone who likes the Cult Legions for their niches within their gods' broader worshippers, who prefers their ranges be focussed on that idea of "what if an entire faction was centred on the Berzerker/Plague Marine/Sorcerer-and-their-thralls/Noise Marine Cults?", I would prefer if Codex: Chaos Space Marines still had broader Marking for people who want to run non-Cult god-themed forces.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by LSM

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

There should be more Marked stuff in Chsos Space Marines. There are plenty of people who want a Nurgle themed army but aren't a fan of DG for example. 

 

The cult Legions should also have more of the generic units though. No reason for DG not to have Obliterators. The Emperor's Children not having Predators is utterly absurd.

 

Speaking purely from a personal opinion I would rather the Cult Legions had access to - almost - everything and the difference was in rules, lore, art, characters rather than models. Basically I don't feel picking a Cult Legion should exclude you from being able to play the game the way you want with the miniatures you want. 

 

The DG didn't use Bikes much sure, but they didn't exclude their use entirely. 

 

Just my two cents. 

[Evil Eye]

I think having the Cult legions being their own books with their own rosters isn't an inherently bad idea. Death Guard were an example of it done right, as even though they didn't have the entire CSM roster they had plenty of cool exclusive units to make up for it. The problem is that the other three were laughable in comparison, especially the poor Emperor's Children. Even aside from losing Predators and Helbrutes, they gained basically nothing in terms of unique units; the Tormentor kit is a very good kit, but it is basically just a Slaanesh CSM box. And one of the iconic parts of EC identity, Noise Marines, went from a core troop unit you could build your army around to louder Havocs.

 

It also really doesn't help that if you want to take a god aligned but non cult CSM army...you can't, really. Which sucks because having the Cult books be for warbands fully committed to one aspect of their god whilst the CSM book supports more generalist but still mono-god forces would be the perfect compromise IMO. Doubly so if they added a system like "If your army contains Nurgle units only, you may include [X] units from Codex: Death Guard" to allow for some slight cross pollination without returning to the nonsense of early 8th.

[Indy Techwisp]

11 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

the Tormentor kit is a very good kit, but it is basically just a Slaanesh CSM box. And one of the iconic parts of EC identity, Noise Marines, went from a core troop unit you could build your army around to louder Havocs.

 

To be fair, they basically split the old Noise Marines into 3 different units:

The Bolter and Close Combat builds became Tormentors/Infractors and the Sonic Weapon options became the new heavier Noise Marines.

[Mogger351]

2 hours ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

There should be more Marked stuff in Chsos Space Marines. There are plenty of people who want a Nurgle themed army but aren't a fan of DG for example. 

 

The cult Legions should also have more of the generic units though. No reason for DG not to have Obliterators. The Emperor's Children not having Predators is utterly absurd.

 

Speaking purely from a personal opinion I would rather the Cult Legions had access to - almost - everything and the difference was in rules, lore, art, characters rather than models. Basically I don't feel picking a Cult Legion should exclude you from being able to play the game the way you want with the miniatures you want. 

 

The DG didn't use Bikes much sure, but they didn't exclude their use entirely. 

 

Just my two cents. 

My response for death guard(or other legions) raptor/bikes is that HH is over there, go at it to your hearts content.

[Crimson Longinus]

Splitting the cult legions the way they did was a bad idea. We now have four thin and flanderised factions that lack complexity and nuance, whereas a lot of options have been excised from the core CSM book making it more bland and limited too. 

 

They should have just been supplements. Loyalist variant chapters still can take most of the core stuff, same should be true for CSM. There are all sort of warbands with various permutations, with different sort of chaos followers fighting side by side. If people want to play such they should be able to. And this would not prevent anyone from running limited and flanderised cult lists if they wanted to do so. You feel your Nurgle worshipping marines would not use bikes. No problem, just don't take bikes! But the option to do so should exist for other people. 

[Borbarad]

Didn't expect the Mutilators to make a comeback.

 

Wonder if GW is going for a dual kit with Obliterators?

[HeadlessCross]

13 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

The primarchs are irrelevant to that point, a nurgle aligned chapter or warband would either be represented by the CSM book if theyre not that far gone or the death guard book if they are very far gone. 

 

Raptors are noted for pote tislly worshipping a minor chaos power as their patron God, so no they wouldn't have death guard raptors if so. The legions way of war didn't promote much use of bikes and that fell out of favour further after the fall.

 

This is a bit of a duality of 40k players moment. Either people want their faction to have fun unique stuff and character, but then also refuse to not have something to help carve out the identity. Deathguard are in a very good place compared to the other 3, but the answer is to get more kits and establish more of a unique faction.

 

Here's the marks table for 3.5 as a refresher. Worthy of note deathguard havocs were a special weapons squad specifically as well.

 

 

Why would a Fallen Chapter so far gone to Nurgle lose their Jump Pack dudes?