New Chaos Models

[Vassakov]

6 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Now try to imagine a bigger Contemptor. A whole new kit, based on the old one, but entirely new. "Empowered by Chaos" is the reason for the difference in size. You remember how Horus got bigger when he fell to Chaos, yes? 

This is a more exciting idea than the same kit as the loyalists, but with spikes.

 

So the Mhara Ghal Possessed Contemptor Dreadnought then?

 

[Orange Knight]

That kinda works but he doesn't need to be as fleshy. And he should be even bigger. I was imagining something approaching the size of the Redemptor.
Chaos corruption doesn't need to manifest as random growths and teeth.

But I've also seen people suggest it should be an off-shoot of the Leviathan. Both would work for me.

[Indy Techwisp]

3 minutes ago, Vassakov said:

 

So the Mhara Ghal Possessed Contemptor Dreadnought then?

 

 

Probably something the scale as that, but ideally not another bloody flesh monstrosity.

We don't need another Hulking Flesh abomination dred, just let it be big, spiky and patched up with Chainmail and fenches

[TheMawr]

3 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

We don't need another Hulking Flesh abomination dred

 

I do

[LSM]

38 minutes ago, TheMawr said:

Everytime I came across this in my "unclear if official or fanmade" folders I have been meaning to ask, but now there actually is a proper topic for it.

Are these official unrealised concepts or fan work ?

 

The artist is Mikhail Savier, I believe, who recently did a lot of work on the Emperor's Children codex (if I'm not mistaken).

 

He had previously done a bunch of concept work on EC marines - though I don't know whether that was on spec or not. (The EC range didn't take overmuch from those concepts.)

[Evil Eye]

31 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Now try to imagine a bigger Contemptor

Can we not make absolutely everything massive for no reason, please and thank you?

[Orange Knight]

Scale Creep is a thing, and the Hellbrute isn't much bigger than some of the Marine heroes these days.

I think Logan Grimnar towers over it...

[Indy Techwisp]

11 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Scale Creep is a thing, and the Hellbrute isn't much bigger than some of the Marine heroes these days.

I think Logan Grimnar towers over it...

 

The Helbrute is pretty small.

He can go under the neck of the Forgefiend with room to spare.

[Ahzek451]

GW is going to do what it wants to do and retcon what it wants to whenever they want to as they have done many times(at a detriment that is arguably getting worse). I can speak for T.sons dreads. At one point during 3rd ed. there existed a set of rules in a chapter approved book that allowed you to upgrade chaos terminators into rubric terminators. And the same for the chaos dreadnought(if I recall correctly, the bonus to being a dusty walking box was the ability to ignore crew stunned and shaken and you lost the frenzy ability). This was the first iteration of an actual T.sons dreadnought. I used it. It was fun. Shortly after, forge world started making the resin chaos dreadnoughts for each legion(sonic dread too). This helped push into the public zeitgeist that personalized and stylized chaos dreadnoughts could be a thing. Well before heresy made them for 30k(before chaosification). 

And then the monopose helbrute lumbered onto the scene. Somewhere in the timeline, forgeworld got pushed out, the chaos dreads became unavailable, and all that was left was the helbrute. Going back to T.sons. I remember reading the first codex lore bit on how helbrutes were justified in the army in its first standalone codex. My first impression was that it was some of the laziest shoe-horned in writing. Basically....they trick other chaos marines and shove them in the box because the chassis can't work with dust. It was painfully obvious this was 100% written this way because the codex needed units to pad it with, and GW was moving to an era where their official army product line had to be plastic. So if they didn't have it, it wasn't in the book. Makes sense. However, what was also very clear is that GW has a vision to separate the GOD legions(WE, TS, DG, EC) into unique factions with unique units. But GW being GW, if its not a space marine and you want new models...sit tight....its going to be awhile. So it only makes sense to pad each codex with existing chaos units (heldrakes, helbrutes, defilers, fiends, tanks, etc.) in the meantime. I think its reasonable to say GW's long-term plan is to fill each book with unique units, which again, makes sense to keep armies fresh every edition. And eventually....some of the shared old models will be retired as the books begins to fill out properly. In which case, its reasonable to think that there could be a point where the fiends, heldrake, etc. could all go away and be replaced with something else unique to that legion. Unless (if the rumors are true) you get something like the new defiler which has parts to make it belong to each legion. OR the daemon prince, with head options for each god. 

As to why the EC have so few shared units compared to its kin, I can't really say other than that perhaps GW is more loony tunes than normal, or they don't care what is missing at present. Maybe there is a new wave of models around the corner and they are willing to let EC players live without a few things until then *shrugs*.

Getting back to the walking boxes, personally I think the lame lore to justify the helbrute in a T.sons army is nothing more than a temporary placeholder until we get a suitable replacement. Just a hunch I have based on watching patterns for many years. And if GW so decides, they can do that with any legion. Per the above rambling, based on patterns, I think its become clear that the GOD legions will very much be very distinct factions over time. And as new models are introduced, old ones will retire. 

If and what the new walkers could look like, I would hedge my bets its a completely new kit and not just an upgrade sprue. But it could 100% be be based on the contemptor chassis. Or not. But I firmly believe that in time, the god legions will share less models. Especially if GW decides to fold in daemons 100% to each legion. 

[gaurdian31]

1 hour ago, TheMawr said:

Everytime I came across this in my "unclear if official or fanmade" folders I have been meaning to ask, but now there actually is a proper topic for it.

Are these official unrealised concepts or fan work ?

 

 

obviously, I could also use google-fu, a deep dive would probably give the answer as well. 

But Id really love both to be real CSM releases.. especially the Apostate with hounds.

Pretty sure those are sketches of models from Warmachine.  Those look like warjacks and a warcaster from the Cryx faction.

Edited Tuesday at 02:41 PM by gaurdian31
Added warmachine faction.

[Evil Eye]

38 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Scale Creep is a thing, and the Hellbrute isn't much bigger than some of the Marine heroes these days.

I think Logan Grimnar towers over it...

Scale creep is indeed a thing- a bad thing that should be reversed, not encouraged. As for Logan, he only towers over the Helbrute by virtue of that ridiculous tactical rock he's on.

[Mogger351]

9 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Scale creep is indeed a thing- a bad thing that should be reversed, not encouraged. As for Logan, he only towers over the Helbrute by virtue of that ridiculous tactical rock he's on.

Continuous creep I agree isn't great, the redemptor is an intentionally bigger stronger dreadnought, so not scale crept as such. A helbrute magically getting bigger to match however would be. Leaving it smol also doesn't sort the fact the model is wholly underwhelming presence wise.

[Orange Knight]

7 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Scale creep is indeed a thing- a bad thing that should be reversed, not encouraged. As for Logan, he only towers over the Helbrute by virtue of that ridiculous tactical rock he's on.

 

Have you seen the models side by side? The actual Logan is almost as chunky as the Hellbrute.

Meanwihile the Hellbrute is only around the waist height of the Redemptor.

GW aren't going to start shrinking the existing loyalist kits. You might not want things to get bigger, but they already have. I am willing to bet that most Chaos players would rather have a Dreadnought of similar stature to what the Loyalists are running.

 

 

[DeadFingers]

1 hour ago, TheMawr said:

Everytime I came across this in my "unclear if official or fanmade" folders I have been meaning to ask, but now there actually is a proper topic for it.

Are these official unrealised concepts or fan work ?

 

 

obviously, I could also use google-fu, a deep dive would probably give the answer as well. 

But Id really love both to be real CSM releases.. especially the Apostate with hounds.

I did do the google-fu and it took me here
https://savier.artstation.com/projects/Dm98

Seems the artist has indeed worked officially for GW, but there is no indication of whether or not these particular sketches were made under GW, or if they were just for fun.

Edited Tuesday at 03:06 PM by DeadFingers

[Indy Techwisp]

20 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Don't talk to me or my unwashed son ever again.

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Have you seen the models side by side? The actual Logan is almost as chunky as the Hellbrute.

Meanwihile the Hellbrute is only around the waist height of the Redemptor.

This just means the Redemptor and Logan are too big.

[LSM]

1 hour ago, Ahzek451 said:

GW is going to do what it wants to do and retcon what it wants to whenever they want to as they have done many times(at a detriment that is arguably getting worse). I can speak for T.sons dreads. At one point during 3rd ed. there existed a set of rules in a chapter approved book that allowed you to upgrade chaos terminators into rubric terminators. And the same for the chaos dreadnought(if I recall correctly, the bonus to being a dusty walking box was the ability to ignore crew stunned and shaken and you lost the frenzy ability)...

 

I don't think there are any rules in the collected 2001 Chapter Approved for TS Dreadnoughts (alongside the Cult Terminators), but the 2002 (WD 267) Index Astartes rules do have them. In that list, the only Vehicle Upgrade in general that Thousand Sons were allowed to take was Coruscating Warp Flames (so no: Dozer Blades, Havoc Launchers, etc). 

 

The exception to this was that TS Dreadnoughts could take Daemonic Possession (and for only 25pts, vs the standard 50pts!) which, as you say, let them ignore Stunned and Shaken results. If they took this (half price) Daemonic Possession, then they also ignored their 'Fire Frenzy' ability.

 

So: yeah, you basically had two styles of TS Dreadnought at that moment. The "Rubric'd" ones (with Daemonic Possession and no Fire Frenzy) and the... "Sorcerer?" ones (with nothing/Coruscating Warp Flames, and subject to Fire Frenzy).

 

(As a rider: the original 1996 Rubric Marine's rule 'Spirit Warriors' gave them the same vulnerabilities/immunities as Daemons, so using Daemonic Possession to represent a Rubric Dreadnought is pretty natural.)

 

Of course, the 2002 Codex release later in the year, and didn't include such special TS Dreadnoughts (while doubling down on the Index Astartes' special Emperor's Children Dreadnoughts, and adding special EC Predators). TS players could still voluntarily take (full price) Daemonic Possession to do the same thing, but didn't gain the ~benefit of ignoring Fire Frenzy.

 

//

 

I don't dislike the fudge with Helbrute as much as you do (I think if the choice is between TS not having a Dreadnought equivalent, and them having to have fluff that they steal other marines and make them into Helbrutes, I'd prefer the latter), but I do find it off-theme. In a cooler world, TS would get a proper Sorcerer/Rubric Dreadnought dual kit, and the TS Helbrute could proxy it/go to Legends.

[Indy Techwisp]

6 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

This just means the Redemptor and Logan are too big.

 

They are very big, but the only way GW is going to shrink anything is if they're making a game that's not in modern era 40k.

And even that's not a guarantee as Horus Heresy Marines are slowly creeping up to 40k CSM scale a.k.a "Accurate Firstborn" which is already big enough for the Helbrute to feel small.

Heck, most of TSons aren't at modern CSM scale and the Helbrute still feels small in comparison.

[Mogger351]

13 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

This just means the Redemptor and Logan are too big.

The redemptor is the size they said it is, it never existed previously and has no reason to bigger or smaller than anything else.

[Robbienw]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Are you wilfully ignoring the points I've made and what I've suggested?

 

No, your points are inconsistent.

 

You say you want chaos to be unique, and not have models like regular SM have, but then you say you want them to have a Contemptor.  Sure it will be chaos mutated, but it will still be recognisably a Contemptor.  In the same way a regular chaos marine is analogous to a regular space marine, has spikes and fleshy bits, mutated to some degree.

 

You also say you don't want a Chaos Redemptor that would be mutated in the same way as a Chaos Contemptor would be, because it would look too much like the regular marine one.

 

Its contradictory.   

Edited Tuesday at 04:48 PM by Robbienw

[Indy Techwisp]

2 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

 

No, your points are inconsistent.

 

You say you want chaos to be unique, and not have models like regular SM have, but then you say you want them to have a Contemptor.  Sure it will be chaos mutated, but it will still be recognisably a Contemptor.  In the same was a regular chaos marine is analogous to an regular space marine, has spikes and fleshy bits, mutated to some degree.

 

You also say you don't want a Chaos Redemptor that would be mutated in the same way as a Chaos Contemptor would be, because it would look too much like the regular marine one.

 

Its contradictory.   

 

Show me the non-Legends Loyalist Space Marine army that still has a Contemptor

[Evil Eye]

30 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

The redemptor is the size they said it is, it never existed previously and has no reason to bigger or smaller than anything else.

The Redemptor has no reason to exist; it's just a worse-looking Castraferrum that's bigger for the sake of being bigger. The Castraferrum (which the Helbrute is equivalently sized to) is supposed to be fairly small as it's meant to fit into confined spaces like bunkers, spaceship corridors and other such places.

[Robbienw]

55 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Show me the non-Legends Loyalist Space Marine army that still has a Contemptor

Irrelevant, the lore still has loyalist marines chapters owning contemptors.  The fact it has a legends profile for gaming acknowledges this fact.

 

Custodians still have them as well…

[Ahzek451]

1 hour ago, LSM said:

 

I don't think there are any rules in the collected 2001 Chapter Approved for TS Dreadnoughts (alongside the Cult Terminators), but the 2002 (WD 267) Index Astartes rules do have them. In that list, the only Vehicle Upgrade in general that Thousand Sons were allowed to take was Coruscating Warp Flames (so no: Dozer Blades, Havoc Launchers, etc). 

 

The exception to this was that TS Dreadnoughts could take Daemonic Possession (and for only 25pts, vs the standard 50pts!) which, as you say, let them ignore Stunned and Shaken results. If they took this (half price) Daemonic Possession, then they also ignored their 'Fire Frenzy' ability.

 

So: yeah, you basically had two styles of TS Dreadnought at that moment. The "Rubric'd" ones (with Daemonic Possession and no Fire Frenzy) and the... "Sorcerer?" ones (with nothing/Coruscating Warp Flames, and subject to Fire Frenzy).

 

(As a rider: the original 1996 Rubric Marine's rule 'Spirit Warriors' gave them the same vulnerabilities/immunities as Daemons, so using Daemonic Possession to represent a Rubric Dreadnought is pretty natural.)

 

Of course, the 2002 Codex release later in the year, and didn't include such special TS Dreadnoughts (while doubling down on the Index Astartes' special Emperor's Children Dreadnoughts, and adding special EC Predators). TS players could still voluntarily take (full price) Daemonic Possession to do the same thing, but didn't gain the ~benefit of ignoring Fire Frenzy.

 

//

 

I don't dislike the fudge with Helbrute as much as you do (I think if the choice is between TS not having a Dreadnought equivalent, and them having to have fluff that they steal other marines and make them into Helbrutes, I'd prefer the latter), but I do find it off-theme. In a cooler world, TS would get a proper Sorcerer/Rubric Dreadnought dual kit, and the TS Helbrute could proxy it/go to Legends.

Yeah I am only going off fuzzy memory, I am curious to dig through my library later and go down memory lane to see what it was exactly. It was an entire army list rule set. Fun times. 

Well that's the part I dislike, the off-theme. The trickery can be argued this is themed. But if you know, you know...this is shoe-horned justification to use the helbrute plastic kit.  I see it as a temporary place holder, I do think the walker is coming at some point, the demand was/is high, as we can see it is still repeated to this day, GW knows it.  In the meantime, it does not stop me from using my T.son Box-noughts from FW. I use my own lore, drop the GW lore, and use the helbrute profile in current games. Funnily, I feel the same about the heldrake. GW added in that we favor this thing, and to a degree I can see why. But in an age where GW can't seem to get off the fence on what to do with flyers, it's a bit of a sore spot. Assuming GW commits to keeping Flyers in 40k, it would be perfect if they dropped the drake, and made a fighter/bomber kit out of the old Doomwing/Fire lord models. Not betting on it, personally I think GW regrets flyers and wants to remove them.

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:51 PM by Ahzek451

[Mogger351]

46 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

The Redemptor has no reason to exist; it's just a worse-looking Castraferrum that's bigger for the sake of being bigger. The Castraferrum (which the Helbrute is equivalently sized to) is supposed to be fairly small as it's meant to fit into confined spaces like bunkers, spaceship corridors and other such places.

Ok, how do you feel about the leviathan?