New Chaos Models

[Robbienw]

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

and yet you assume that everyone should care about what YOU think?

 

I'm not sure what has given you that impression. I'm stating what i'd like to see for Chaos Space Marines in a thread about new stuff for Chaos Space Marines, this is a common type of thing warhammer fans do on warhammer forums 

[Orange Knight]

3 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

 

I'm not sure what has given you that impression. I'm stating what i'd like to see for Chaos Space Marines in a thread about new stuff for Chaos Space Marines, this is a common type of thing warhammer fans do on warhammer forums 

 

That's all well and good. Doesn't explain why you were sniping at comments I made and being snide. The comments are there for all to see, so don't act innocent and ignorant now.
 

I suggest you tone down the emotions and consider everything that has been said more objectively. Nothing in this topis warrants personal attacks and sniping. 

[Jings]

Would the Defiler not fill the same design space as the Redemptor given its size (assuming they don't bump it up). 

 

Helbrute would benefit from a bit of an upscale and options for less fleshy bits tho but that's not really on the cards. 

[Robbienw]

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

That's all well and good. Doesn't explain why you were sniping at comments I made and being snide. The comments are there for all to see, so don't act innocent and ignorant now.
 

I suggest you tone down the emotions and consider everything that has been said more objectively. Nothing in this topis warrants personal attacks and sniping. 

 

What 

 

I suggested a Chaos Redemptor mate, there is no need to become aggressive over it, have a day off 

[Kharn13]

19 minutes ago, Jings said:

Would the Defiler not fill the same design space as the Redemptor given its size (assuming they don't bump it up). 

 

Helbrute would benefit from a bit of an upscale and options for less fleshy bits tho but that's not really on the cards. 

The Defiler is 160mm base currently. Redemptor is 90mm.

[Mogger351]

11 minutes ago, Kharn13 said:

The Defiler is 160mm base currently. Redemptor is 90mm.

I'm not sure the base size is the point  there. More "big walking infantry support unit", which I'm not sure it does that still as it's part artillery, but I can see the comparison.

[ursvamp]

44 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

I suggested a Chaos Redemptor mate, there is no need to become aggressive over it

It seems to me, reading this conversation, that reason it became heated was that O.K. said that the tabletop (meaning the models, as in the physical things that are on the tabletop) dictates the lore.

And you countered with the fact that the tabletop (meaning the game/system, as in the Tabletop Game) does not dictate the lore; the models do.

 

O.K. then pointed out that by ”tabletop” they meant the models, and that was the point they were making.

 

to which you responded that no, ”tabletop” means game. And that O.K’s argument was that the game dictates the lore.

Which was both rude (assuming interpretive authority over someone else) and makes you seem a bit inflexible in your reading.

and that caused things to get heated, as far as I can tell.

 

Somewhat On topic:

 

I get that it’s not happening in this release, that’s rumored, but the four cult legions should really have their own Dreadnaughts, right? That seems like such an open goal…

And in the same way that their infantry units are each based on a distinct mark of power/terminator armor, would it be fitting for them to each use a different version of Dreadnaught? Or are there too few variants for that to work?

[Crimson Longinus]

What I find weird is how CSM design is not more heavily influenced by HH design. Like their hellbrutes are boxnaughts which until recently were "current" marine dreads, their Rhinos are not Deimos pattern, most of their helmets seem to be based on MkVII etc. Like I get the real world reason of most of HH stuff being invented after many of the CSM units, but at this point one would imagine that there would have been sufficient time to adapt the designs. Ancient CSM stuff should be corruption of HH stuff, not corruption of 41st millennium marine stuff (and if it is latter then Primaris gear is fair game too.) But I think CSM would look more distinct if their armour was more obviously based on older marks, if they had Deimos chassis Rhinos, Sicaran tanks, Proteus and Spartan Land Raiders, Leviathan Hellbrutes etc. 

[lansalt]

27 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Ancient CSM stuff should be corruption of HH stuff, not corruption of 41st millennium marine stuff

But most CSM are not truly ancient in M41. A lot of them were "recruited" millenia later, and so did the weapons and gear they use. Besides daemon engines, I think most of their vehicles are looted from Imperials, even among the old legions

[Crimson Longinus]

1 minute ago, lansalt said:

But most CSM are not truly ancient in M41. A lot of them were "recruited" millenia later, and so did the weapons and gear they use. Besides daemon engines, I think most of their vehicles are looted from Imperials, even among the old legions

 

In that case they should be able to have anything loyalists have. But they don't. CSM are in weird place where they do not have the ancient relics of HH, nor the newer Imperial stuff. It is just lazy and weird. 

[DemonGSides]

33 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

What I find weird is how CSM design is not more heavily influenced by HH design. Like their hellbrutes are boxnaughts which until recently were "current" marine dreads, their Rhinos are not Deimos pattern, most of their helmets seem to be based on MkVII etc. Like I get the real world reason of most of HH stuff being invented after many of the CSM units, but at this point one would imagine that there would have been sufficient time to adapt the designs. Ancient CSM stuff should be corruption of HH stuff, not corruption of 41st millennium marine stuff (and if it is latter then Primaris gear is fair game too.) But I think CSM would look more distinct if their armour was more obviously based on older marks, if they had Deimos chassis Rhinos, Sicaran tanks, Proteus and Spartan Land Raiders, Leviathan Hellbrutes etc. 

 

There's plenty of stories of 'modern' astartes betraying their chapters and joining chaos warbands (hell the best DG 40k book (Lords of Silence) is just that), so them having modern equipment is as easy to explain as "They stuffed a transport with as much :cuss: as they could" or "they found some like minded dudes to mutiny with" or anything else.

 

So I think, ideally, CSM would draw from ALL eras of space Marines; I think it'd be cool to have a CSM guy wearing Primaris Pants but with older armor mark chest and pauldrons and gauntlets etc etc etc. 

 

Let them draw from the full history as there's precedence. Modern SM should only be bringing out the archaeo tech sparingly, but CSM are dependent on that same era stuff cuz it's what they have. 

[Ahzek451]

2 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

In that case they should be able to have anything loyalists have. But they don't. CSM are in weird place where they do not have the ancient relics of HH, nor the newer Imperial stuff. It is just lazy and weird. 

For many years I mostly agree with this. Its like wanting GW to pick a lane. Or rather, lean into a lane more. But you can still go about it with nuance and have a hybrid. Its tricky to navigate. 

 

On one hand, the chaos legions went traitor and should have fled with what's left of their heresy gear. Which should be substantial enough, but years of wear and tear and lack of the origional factories, this is where GW stepped in and said that often gear is raided and stolen from more current era marines (prior to primaris). Certainly wouldn't stop them in current era from raiding and modding a grav tank. Especially for those marine chapters that have gone traitor in more recent times. What about them? It would make sense that they still have their primaris gear but have also made some pacts to get their hands on some daemonic engines. 

 

Personally, I wish GW would lean in a little harder on the old chaos legions in saying that they were able to hold onto production for a lot of heresy gear better than we currently think. But not for everyone. Each legion fending for themselves and scattering to the eye, unbound by imperial beuracacry, each legion generally maintains heresy era predators, land raider, rhinos...and why not? GW has the designs, its a new kit, add a chaos sprue and they would sell like hot cakes. And would help set chaos apart from primaris grav tech. 

 

But to add more flavor, as mentioned above, for the most part each legion knows how to make your land raiders, rhinos, preds, etc. But some of the specialist heresy stuff...like sicarans, leviathan, etc....each legion could have held onto production better than others and modified and corrupted it into something that leans into the legion. For example, we could say that T.sons held onto the construction of the Xiphon and has a corrupted possessed version of that, meanwhile the death guard did a better job at holding onto leviathans, and have their messed up version. Again, just as examples. Whatever helps differentiate chaos marines from space marines the better.

 

Its partly rhe justification for the sekhetar robots. Tech from the heresy there has been modded and made unique to the T.sons. I think we will start to see more things like this.

[Robbienw]

58 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

What I find weird is how CSM design is not more heavily influenced by HH design. Like their hellbrutes are boxnaughts which until recently were "current" marine dreads, their Rhinos are not Deimos pattern, most of their helmets seem to be based on MkVII etc. Like I get the real world reason of most of HH stuff being invented after many of the CSM units, but at this point one would imagine that there would have been sufficient time to adapt the designs. Ancient CSM stuff should be corruption of HH stuff, not corruption of 41st millennium marine stuff (and if it is latter then Primaris gear is fair game too.) But I think CSM would look more distinct if their armour was more obviously based on older marks, if they had Deimos chassis Rhinos, Sicaran tanks, Proteus and Spartan Land Raiders, Leviathan Hellbrutes etc. 

 

That's because CSM have to raid resources from the Imperium and salvage imperial stuff, plus a lot of CSM would be of post heresy renegade chapter origin.

 

Remember the Legions lost vast amounts of gear and all their bases and manufacturing facilities.  Even those CSM that were able to re-establish them may lack the capability to make some stuff, and would probably tack towards making reliable easier to manufacture.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 03:48 PM by Robbienw

[LSM]

One of my favourite little Chaos stories is Matthew Farrer's 2012 The Masters, Bidding. In it, an Iron Warrior warlord has found (amongst the spoils of a Waaagh! he's defeated) a fine net fitted with countless Eldar Soul Stones. He sends out emissaries to all the Legions inviting them to send representatives to come and bid for it, knowing that they tend to value such things more than the Fourth.

 

He's a proud, self-aggrandising Veteran of the Long War, and the story turns on the point where he comes to the realisation that the four Legion Masters who show up (from the Night Lords, Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, and Thousand Sons) were all initiated in recent millennia, and none of them actually give a toss about the Horus Heresy. 

 

//

 

In Codex: Chaos (1996) if Huron Blackheart was leading the force then it could choose to take Wargear and Vehicles from Codex: Ultramarines. Further, Red Corsairs Terminators were always taken from Codex: Ultramarines and not from Codex: Chaos.

 

This allowed players to represent a "recently" traitor CSM army.

 

//

 

2 hours ago, ursvamp said:

I get that it’s not happening in this release, that’s rumored, but the four cult legions should really have their own Dreadnaughts, right? That seems like such an open goal…

And in the same way that their infantry units are each based on a distinct mark of power/terminator armor, would it be fitting for them to each use a different version of Dreadnaught? Or are there too few variants for that to work?

 

Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons especially have precedent (from 3rd edition), and so I advocate for Sonic and Sorcerer/Rubric Dreadnought kits.

 

I don't know about them all having their own "Pattern" (in the way that the Cult Troops all wear different Marks of Power Armour; which made sense in the 90s but fits more roughly into a post-Horus-Heresy-explored 40k setting), though I suppose that's something they could do.

[gaurdian31]

If obliterators are being split off, I wonder what is going to happen to the venom crawler. Hopefully they'll get their own box as well.

[Jukkiz]

17 minutes ago, gaurdian31 said:

If obliterators are being split off, I wonder what is going to happen to the venom crawler. Hopefully they'll get their own box as well.

knowing GW, it might just get separate release box but not a new sculpt. Whilte Oblits get dual box with mutilators

[Joe]

Obviously, it'll move to being a dedicated mommy Venomcrawler box, with a few dedicated baby Venomcrawlers.

 

I may have been looking at the new Shelob for MESBG recently and praying for smaller plastic spiders to go alongside her admittedly. 

[TheMawr]

49 minutes ago, LSM said:

 

In Codex: Chaos (1996) if Huron Blackheart was leading the force then it could choose to take Wargear and Vehicles from Codex: Ultramarines. Further, Red Corsairs Terminators were always taken from Codex: Ultramarines and not from Codex: Chaos.

 

 

 

Ahhh Thats what those ultramarine videos where about all along 

 

51 minutes ago, LSM said:

Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons especially have precedent (from 3rd edition), and so I advocate for Sonic and Sorcerer/Rubric Dreadnought kits.

 

I don't know about them all having their own "Pattern" (in the way that the Cult Troops all wear different Marks of Power Armour; which made sense in the 90s but fits more roughly into a post-Horus-Heresy-explored 40k setting), though I suppose that's something they could do.

 

Personally I think they indeed will get their own equivalents to some things, but I dont think they will be based on anything LSM ( and I dont mean you.. but loyal space marines ).. 40k nor horus heresy.

 

I personally think for thousand sons we will be looking at bigger variants of the sekhetar robots. I really dont think we have seen the last of that designspace either way ( I still think there is a possibility for a killteam of smaller variants lead by a specialised TS marine that fit the description in the lore more, as the lore describes more spec-op teams of these constructs that are a combination of flesh, machine and daemonic.) its a nod to Horus Heresy but uses its own designs ( not unlike the deathguard daemon engines )

 

 

[Ahzek451]

Steering back to the main topic, I'm excited for undivided chaos to get new toys. Oblits and Mutilators belong with your black legion, NL, IW, and WB. I'm very content that the god legions do not share in all the same units. I would go so far as saying the same for most daemon engines. But the defiler...so iconic. If you had to pick something to share with legions that came supplied with parts to make for any god legion, it would be this one. I'm curious what the bits look like and how chaos-y the trim will be. One of the more notable things about the current Defiler being one of the first plastic daemon engines....it really didn't have any exposed fleshy bits. It was very mechanical. But knowing the asthetic GW has been doing with more recent daemon engines, it probably will have it. 

[gaurdian31]

2 hours ago, Jukkiz said:

knowing GW, it might just get separate release box but not a new sculpt. Whilte Oblits get dual box with mutilators

 

2 hours ago, Joe said:

Obviously, it'll move to being a dedicated mommy Venomcrawler box, with a few dedicated baby Venomcrawlers.

 

I may have been looking at the new Shelob for MESBG recently and praying for smaller plastic spiders to go alongside her admittedly. 

They'd have to make a new kit right? There's a lot of obliterator bits on the venomcrawler sprue.

[Joe]

15 minutes ago, gaurdian31 said:

They'd have to make a new kit right? There's a lot of obliterator bits on the venomcrawler sprue.

 

They would - this is just me being hopeful admittedly, as I would love to see the Venomcrawler stick around for the long run.

 

Toss in some god-specific stuff whilst we're at it.

[Nephaston]

20 minutes ago, gaurdian31 said:

They'd have to make a new kit right? There's a lot of obliterator bits on the venomcrawler sprue.

Definitely. It's basically the same situation as the other shadowspear entries back then, the legionnaires and the then greater possessed dubbed new possessed, who shared their sprue before getting refreshed.

Like the possessed it might be a while before the venomcrawler sees their own release in the meantime though.

[Indy Techwisp]

2 hours ago, TheMawr said:

I personally think for thousand sons we will be looking at bigger variants of the sekhetar robots.

 

That would be more of an insult than TSons not getting a unique Dred at all.

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, Ahzek451 said:

One of the more notable things about the current Defiler being one of the first plastic daemon engines....it really didn't have any exposed fleshy bits. It was very mechanical. But knowing the asthetic GW has been doing with more recent daemon engines, it probably will have it. 

 

Personally I'm hoping the new Defiler takes it design cues from the Forgefiend.

There's still fleshy bits, but they're significantly less "in your face" fleshy than some other Daemon Engines.

Edited 21 hours ago by Indy Techwisp

[phandaal]

9 hours ago, Robbienw said:

 

What 

 

I suggested a Chaos Redemptor mate, there is no need to become aggressive over it, have a day off 

 

That whole exchange was great because Primaris Chaos Space Marines are explicitly a thing already, according to recent lore.

 

The Marines who fell to the Murder Curse must have had a Redemptor or two among their number, yeah?

 

All that arguing about how something cannot be, when GW themselves have already made it happen. 

Edited 19 hours ago by phandaal