Death means nothing

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

In the words of Doug Murphy, "dead people should be dead".

 

Really though, this is problem is sadly not unique to GW. A sniff of money and any story or character development is gone in a shot. 

 

 

[Evil Eye]

9 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

If he wasn’t missing where was he? From the bits of his book I’ve seen/heard he was off some where passed the feth out.

IIRC he was asleep inside The Rock (That Makes You Old) until the message that Guilliman was frolicking in Yvraine's enchanted forest reached him, upon which he woke up immediately and set course for Ultramar to mock his brother with jeers of "Robby likes knife-ears! Robby likes knife-ears!" and jokes about GW bringing back Iliyian Natase*, in a brotherly teasing sort of way. ("Oh, don't take it so personally you silly old blueberry! I'm only jealous!").

 

*However you spell it.

[Astartes Consul]

In terms of Primarchs, the ones already brought back have all been, in-universe, alive the entire time. Sort of. Aside from Horus, Curze, Sanguinnius and Ferrus, everyone else is missing/in stasis/demonic. IMO it would have been better for the narrative to keep Gulliman as the sole loyalist Primarch. But that's just me.

 

As others have said, I think bringing back any of the confirmed KIA Primarchs into the 40k setting would be a point of no return. To my mind, having all the Traitor Primarchs eventually return can make sense narratively. But it does massively stack the things in terms of character models/units on the retail side, though.

 

If GW hadn't decided that all available units for 40k have to be extant in-universe, then some form of riff on the 'seasons' or 'series' concept you seen in other games could have worked. Yarrick still has a model, and there is a campaign book about Armageddon that gives him rules and narrative bonuses for certain types of lists. But you can't field him in an army with, say, Urusla Creed. Or just allow people to use their own judgment/imagination when it comes to the setting. Perish the thought.

 

And obviously, if you want to play in a setting with all the Primarchs being alive, then Heresy exists. 

 

The real loser here? Captain Tycho. Poor bloke is basically the only character they've kept dead.

[phandaal]

22 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

He wasn't actually missing though. 

 

He was actually missing though. As far as the Dark Angels and the rest of humanity were concerned, he had not been seen since he went down to confront Luther on Caliban. This is basic lore, on par with "the Emperor fought Horus."

 

Next you're going to tell me that Jaghatai Khan is not missing either, because technically we know he went into the Webway.

 

Anyway, the Lion's return absolutely was "somehow, he woke up and now he can teleport across thousands of light years of space using trees or something."

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

14 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

IIRC he was asleep inside The Rock (That Makes You Old) until the message that Guilliman was frolicking in Yvraine's enchanted forest reached him, upon which he woke up immediately and set course for Ultramar to mock his brother with jeers of "Robby likes knife-ears! Robby likes knife-ears!" and jokes about GW bringing back Iliyian Natase*, in a brotherly teasing sort of way. ("Oh, don't take it so personally you silly old blueberry! I'm only jealous!").

 

*However you spell it.

I’ve never seen or heard of any lore that said he was in the rock.

 

if he was asleep in the rock how did DA not know he was awake? Why did Dante have to take him to his chapter?

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I’ve never seen or heard of any lore that said he was in the rock.

 

This has been stated many times in the Dark Angels books, going all the way back at least as far as the old Angels of Death codex.

 

As for how the Dark Angels do not know this, it is because the chamber containing the Lion is inaccessible, no way in or out, and the Dark Angels do not even know it exists. The Emperor knows, and so do the Watchers in the Dark, but none of them are telling.

 

As for why the Lion went to the Blood Angels first and not to his own Chapter, it is because there must have been a rule around the Lion's return mandating all lore to be as nonsensical as possible.

 

Edited Saturday at 04:12 AM by phandaal

[calgar101]

39 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I’ve never seen or heard of any lore that said he was in the rock.

 

if he was asleep in the rock how did DA not know he was awake? Why did Dante have to take him to his chapter?

It was said the Lion was in an unknown chamber on the Rock, the Watchers possibly keeping him hidden; I believe that idea has been in most Dark Angel codexes/Index articles since 3rd?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

48 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

This has been stated many times in the Dark Angels books, going all the way back at least as far as the old Angels of Death codex.

 

As for how the Dark Angels do not know this, it is because the chamber containing the Lion is inaccessible, no way in or out, and the Dark Angels do not even know it exists. The Emperor knows, and so do the Watchers in the Dark, but none of them are telling.

 

As for why the Lion went to the Blood Angels first and not to his own Chapter, it is because there must have been a rule around the Lion's return mandating all lore to be as nonsensical as possible.

 

So he was missing…no one knew where he was in universe. Thats the definition of missing.

[Urkh]

On 12/31/2025 at 4:01 PM, Firepower said:

I for one quite like the mental image of Adeptus Biologus Miracle Max gallivanting around the galaxy and distributing chocolate coated retcons on a whim.

 

Speaking of characters we thought were dead... Hahaha 

[Lord_Ikka]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So he was missing…no one knew where he was in universe. Thats the definition of missing.

The Lion was known to only the Watchers in the Dark- they were guarding him while he healed from his battle with Luther/the destruction of Caliban. 

 

Much like Gulliman, the Lion was never "missing" to players/outside of universe; multiple DA codices referenced him being hidden in the Rock and healing (pre-9th edition) or healed (9th edition). Unlike Gulliman, the Lion's location was not known in-universe, pretty much like every other Loyalist Primarch- while there are in-universe stories about what happened to Russ/the Khan/Corax/Vulkan, only Gulliman's body had a known, in-universe location. 

 

As far as having rumored dead characters return, meh. GW is about making money first, lore sense a very distant second. The lore of the universe has always been an unreliable narrator, which allows them to pull these kind of shenanigans and just hand-wave it away. I'm not a fan of it, but I acknowledge that it has happened before and will happen again. My hard line is the dead Primarchs (Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, Night Haunter, Horus) being kept dead. They shouldn't ever come back.

 

I'm ok with someone like Yarrick coming back, as he was never officially ruled dead (this post literally says he may be alive but who knows). I would prefer GW actually killing off characters/introducing new characters to the DC/Marvel-style constant main character revival, but I understand it as a business move; keep your known properties refreshed/renewed for new consumption. There's a reason that we've had five versions of Calgar, he sells well. If he didn't, he'd be getting a bonesword through the neck pronto. 

[Grotsmasha]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I’ve never seen or heard of any lore that said he was in the rock.

 

if he was asleep in the rock how did DA not know he was awake? Why did Dante have to take him to his chapter?

 Its in the 2nd Ed. Codex: Angels of Death, and every subsequent Codex Dark Angels. The Watchers had him hidden, accessible to only themselves via however it is they move through space/time/warp/teleport.

[phandaal]

8 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So he was missing…no one knew where he was in universe. Thats the definition of missing.

 

Indeed... You were right from the beginning. Hence my response to Headless Cross when he decided to argue about that for some reason.

 

Edited Saturday at 01:01 PM by phandaal

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

WWE planning a pay-per-view event vs. Gee-Dubbs planning a pay-per-purchase event:

 

WWE:

CEO: "Our golden goose (Hulk Hogan) won´t be available for Wrestlemania. What do we do?"

Suit #1: "We put an AI-generated version of the Hulkster on the screen. The rabble won´t be able to tell the difference."

CEO: "This sounds a bit too ghoulish even for us. Another idea?"

Suit #2: "We push another dude to become the top star."

CEO: "GENIUS! That´s what we do!"

 

Meanwhile at Gee-Dubbs:

CEO: "Our golden goose (Yarrick) won´t be available for the FOURTH War on Armageddon. What do we do?"

Suit #1: We push another dude to become the MAN on Armageddon."

CEO: ":cuss:?! Get outa here now!" -Suit #1 gets thrown out of the window turning him into street pizza-

Suit #2: "We resurrect Yarrick and give a flimsy excuse for it. The rabble will eat it up without bickering."

CEO: "GENIUS! That´s what we do!"

 

[ZeroWolf]

19 minutes ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

WWE planning a pay-per-view event vs. Gee-Dubbs planning a pay-per-purchase event:

 

WWE:

CEO: "Our golden goose (Hulk Hogan) won´t be available for Wrestlemania. What do we do?"

Suit #1: "We put an AI-generated version of the Hulkster on the screen. The rabble won´t be able to tell the difference."

CEO: "This sounds a bit too ghoulish even for us. Another idea?"

Suit #2: "We push another dude to become the top star."

CEO: "GENIUS! That´s what we do!"

 

Meanwhile at Gee-Dubbs:

CEO: "Our golden goose (Yarrick) won´t be available for the FOURTH War on Armageddon. What do we do?"

Suit #1: We push another dude to become the MAN on Armageddon."

CEO: ":cuss:?! Get outa here now!" -Suit #1 gets thrown out of the window turning him into street pizza-

Suit #2: "We resurrect Yarrick and give a flimsy excuse for it. The rabble will eat it up without bickering."

CEO: "GENIUS! That´s what we do!"

 

To be fair, they never fully committed to the idea he was dead in the first place, leaving the door wide open that he never was. Which means this is less a retcon than the next step in the plan from the beginning. Basically, they never intended him to die in the first place and just wanted some drama to drum up hype while his new plastic miniature was being finalised.

 

In short, if you don't have eyes on a (their actual) body, they were never dead to begin with, a fiction trope thats been with us for decades.

[grailkeeper]

In fairness to the WWE/WWF its one of the few forms of entertainment where the baddy has as much chance of winning as the good guy. 

 

In 40k, where the term "good guy" means a bit less you can be pretty sure the protagonists will win. Storm of Iron was a big surprise at the time because the Imperium lost. 

 

[HeadlessCross]

On 1/3/2026 at 4:57 AM, phandaal said:

 

Indeed... You were right from the beginning. Hence my response to Headless Cross when he decided to argue about that for some reason.

 

That's not missing for us readers though. 

[phandaal]

7 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

That's not missing for us readers though. 

 

Listen - I know your schtick here is opining and arguing over everything while not actually reading the lore, playing the game, or collecting the models, but this one is just silly. There has to be a better hill to die on than not knowing about one of the longest-running pieces of lore in 40k.

[HeadlessCross]

49 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Listen - I know your schtick here is opining and arguing over everything while not actually reading the lore, playing the game, or collecting the models, but this one is just silly. There has to be a better hill to die on than not knowing about one of the longest-running pieces of lore in 40k.

The longest running pieces of lore being that:

1. The Lion isn't dead but in some sorta coma

2. We the readers know where he is despite people in universe not knowing

3. The primarchs have had legends that they'll randomly pop back alive to fight the enemies of the Imperium

 

It's not the same as Vulkan or Khan being missing where we the readers don't even know their location. Lionel wasn't missing, I'm sorry you felt the need to insult me for whatever reason despite you being wrong. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

That's not missing for us readers though. 

Ok, and? My original palpatine reference still stands.

”somehow the lion returned” he was randomly in a coma for 10k years and somehow he randomly wakes up.