Death means nothing

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

5 hours ago, OnePaulMurray said:

As for the Lion... yeah, the narrative made no sense there. But his waking up as the next Primarch cab off the rank made sense given that he was "known". I'm not sure why he didn't just wake up when Vashtorr invaded The Rock and emerge from the depths to slap bad guys.

 

Probably because that happened well after he'd disappeared from the Rock and woke up elsewhere.

 

Edited Wednesday at 01:22 AM by Lord Nord in Gravis Armour

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

48 minutes ago, Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said:

 

Probably because that happened well after he'd disappeared from the Rock and woke up elsewhere.

 

…you missed the point entirely…but he could have always forest walked back.

[lhg033]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I wouldn’t mind yarrick becoming a dread pirate Roberts type figure, where he simply become ‘the yarrick’

 

He will of course need a trusty Bulgryn,.. "Fezzik"

[apologist]

On 1/2/2026 at 1:19 PM, Astartes Consul said:

If GW hadn't decided that all available units for 40k have to be extant in-universe, then some form of riff on the 'seasons' or 'series' concept you seen in other games could have worked. Yarrick still has a model, and there is a campaign book about Armageddon that gives him rules and narrative bonuses for certain types of lists. But you can't field him in an army with, say, Urusla Creed. Or just allow people to use their own judgment/imagination when it comes to the setting. Perish the thought.

 

Yeah, absolutely agree with this. The rumoured Armageddon supplement is a perfect example of what could be a cool thematic look at the 2nd/3rd Aramgeddon Wars; one of the key historical events of the 41st Millennium, and one that I've got a lot of personal nostalgia and enthusiasm about. 

 

+The appeal of Armageddon+

There's a strong narrative: Ghazghkull's rise and attack, his first defeat and return; and his personal rivalry with Yarrick. A modern take on that could be amazing, with space for Orks, Imperial Guard, Space Marines (particularly BA, SW, UM, Salamanders and Black Templars), and also Leagues of Votann. Just picture it – character kits for Yarrick, Tu'Shan, Nazdreg and Mad Dok Grotsnik; Mark VII upgrade sprues and splash releases for Marines; kits for Steel Legion infantry and command squads...

 

... but as it is, I'm expecting the narrative to be slightly frustrating; retreading the broad strokes but not building on them, and focussing on stuff that's cool, but not really to do with the 'Orks versus the Guard on Armageddon'. I really like Yarrick as a character, and agree that his being killed off felt weird, but prefer that to him being reincarnated or dragged out a third time. He was pointedly an old man during the Second War of Armageddon, but he's a symbol more than a genuine threat to Ghazghkull – the Ahab to Ghazghkull's great white (void) whale.
 

If you want a new Yarrick figure, build one properly. Look at how the character was developed, rather than dressing a new model in a corpse's robes. A talented Steel Legion character stumbling under the weight of expectation to 'be the new Yarrick' is far more compelling than 'that guy's son/daughter, who is just like that guy'. Apart from anything else, it'd be a great tongue-in-cheek nod to the audience – no-one's going to live up to Yarrick in-universe, so why not play on that out-of-universe for a bit of fun with the fans?

 

The key thing is that there's still loads of room for innovation right in the material as already told – there was an entire orbital war that gets a few vague mentions. Ork Gargants fought Imperial Titans. The Officio Sabatorum and Templars Psykologis got their first (and so far only) mentions there. Ork Blitz Brigades and the innovations and advancements of 'Orkimedes'. There are entire continents to populate with warring troops and events. The Steel Legion, despite appearing in (presuamably) all four wars, have languished untouched since the days of white metal. How about a new Chimera – or a fleet of ork tanks?

 

+Brave new worlds+

Beyond my personal hobby horse of Armageddon, I actually quite like the fact that the narratives usually trail off in GW's events like this. It's narratively unsatisfying not to know whether Cadia fell or the orks conquered Armageddon, but that's rather the point. GW's expansions used to live in a setting, where the expansions and events were a call for you to answer the questions of who won, what happened and how. Whether characters lived or died was down to us, the players.

 

With an evolving timeline, that's not a good option. GW have proven with Age of Sigmar that an evolving setting can work (albeit with its own problems), but 40k seems caught in a situation where GW want to have their cake and eat it – and its this that's causing the lack of perma-death in 40k. Personally I prefer the setting approach, but I think the horse has bolted on that.

 

For me, the best balance would be to have the expansions, events and supplements focussing on particular worlds or regions, with everything laid out like historical wargaming: 'such-and-such happened, so-and-so died – but here's your chance to see if you can do better, or explore what-ifs.' These would have their own unique characters – the sort of splash release which GW seems to do with things like the event exclusives or made to order – who you can use in other games, but are understood to have lived and died in one particular region and period. These special characters should emphasise the character, not the special. Prince Yriel, the Tyrant of Badab and (more recently) Haarken Worldclaimer and Titus are great examples of characters that feel like they can drive a world-shattering story, but don't really have a place in deciding the fate of the galaxy.

 

Meanwhile, the ongoing 40k Grand Narrative should be less character-focussed, but provide a backdrop for these focal areas. Genuine immortals. mythic beings and galaxy-wide players like the Primarchs, Silent King etc. would have a good place here, but should stay largely out of the stories in expansions, events and supplements. They are 'big' enough not to need introducing in the same way as 'General One-world' does, and have an excuse to turn up wherever and whenever GW wants, and weather the storms of an ongoing narrative – just like the playable gods (Nagash, Teclis etc.) in Age of Sigmar do. They are great archetypes of factions, but overshadow anything that individual players or gaming groups do: you might kill Tycho, but you'll never kill Guilliman.

 

Ghazghkull was a great character: an ambitious boss who may or may not have started hearing the voices of his gods after a bolt shell pulped part of his brain. He never needed to get bigger than he was on Armageddon. It doesn't improve or expand his character in a meaningful way – and the difference in narrative between Ghazghkull's earlier incarnation and his current one reduces his character to 'bigger and nastier'.

Edited Wednesday at 10:48 AM by apologist

[OnePaulMurray]

22 hours ago, Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said:

 

Probably because that happened well after he'd disappeared from the Rock and woke up elsewhere.

 

Yeah but this isn't a real guy so his movements aren't independent of GW's control mate... for the avoidance of doubt I'm saying that there were other routes they could have taken with him.

[apologist]

On 1/1/2026 at 12:28 PM, Evil Eye said:

I definitely think the excessive focus on "advancing the story" and turning the game into a tabletop version of a live-service game (complete with seasonal updates even!) has not done much good with regards to special characters. [...]narratively important/popular characters can never stay dead because GW refuses to let dead characters be playable or allow people to play games in "the past" of 40K [...] and characters that are allowed to die usually get killed off "offscreen" in disappointing/boring ways, usually to promote something new and fancy. See also: The constant anticlimactic duels between named characters where nothing actually happens.

 

If 40K was treated properly as a sandbox setting, with the options to play games set in any period rather than being constrained to the "here and now", they could actually give characters satisfying ends and not worry about "But how are we going to sell him if he's dead?". Hell, they could sell more than one version of the same character even, representing them at different times. But then they wouldn't be able to force you to buy the shiny new thing because the model you already have is no longer playable.

 

Agreed – and the irony is that the commercial argument's not the solid case it used to be. I can understand 90s-era GW not wanting to kill off Character X because it would impact sales of Model X, but that was in a world of single-pose sculpts and where all of their releases formed a permanent part of their stock-keeping.

 

Today, GW has a completely different approach to having everything available all the time, likely because their range is huge. There are:

• Core ranges, which appears in all their stores and is always available – Space Marines Intercessors, for example
• Ranges that are only stocked in larger stores – stuff like the current Boxed game and older or less popular armies like the Age of Sigmar Fyreslayers
• Direct Only stock – Adeptus Titanicus releases and similar material for older Boxed games (Specialist Games/Forge World in old parlance)
• Splash releases which are released once/periodially and not kept in stock – Miniature of the month, anniversary stuff etc.

Since it apparently no longer makes commercial sense for GW to keep everything in stock, it strikes me that most special characters would be an ideal as splash releases that accompany the rules/lore/event books, with others (the 'Big Players') remaining part of core stock.

 

That'd let them be a lot more fluid and flexible, and create much more interesting stories. Imagine if Lieutenant Titus had come out as a 'Miniature of the Month' to help promote and gauge sales of the 500 Worlds: Titus book; and the boxed set of the Captain version had come out at the same time as the book's release? The events of the story could then determine whether Titus lives or dies – and whether the box then becomes a Direct Only item (for people who come along later) or part of the 'larger store' stock.

 

A similar hypothetical – the Gravis-armoured Marneus Calgar is released as a (substantial) splash release, with a story already in place for him to somehow lose it, and for the Terminator-armoured version to replace it as ongoing stock.

 

Space Marines are always a bit egregious, so let's instead look at Minska Lesk, a character that has had three versions already. She's a great example of the approach I'm suggesting above:

1. Make a character and give their 'low-level' version away free so people know who they are. Release a BL book alongside.
2. Create a splash release of a later version to accompany a event/book release a couple of months later.
3. At the end of the event, make the splash release Direct Only, and if they have proven particularly popular, make a version that goes into ongoing stock – or kill them off.

Picture that with the upcoming Tyrant of Badab, Lufgt Huron; or Yriel, the Corsair Prince.

 

This way we see narrative progression of characters that we know and care about, while the commercial side ticks over nicely. If nothing else, having a freebie version of a previously-unknown character would give people investment in events. I'd be much more inclined to buy 'Dheneb: Struggle for the MacGuffin' if I already owned Magos Norris or Striking Scorpion Syril to play the first mission with – particularly if the Archmagos Norris or Autarch Syril model looked cool.

 

+++

 

Even ignoring all of that, we're in an era of multi-pose sprues these days. There are quite a few examples of sculpts that nod to particular characters – the Blood Angels Captain that has a set of options which make a pretty good Tycho is a good example. Why not make more of that? Have one set of options create a special character that's expanded on in a book, and the others be more generic.

 

Ûthar the Destined is a build option in the generic Leagues of Votann blister; Nork Deddog is another example of a character that can be built using options on a sprue – are there more?

 

 

Edited Thursday at 11:34 AM by apologist

[Magos Takatus]

22 hours ago, apologist said:

 

Agreed – and the irony is that the commercial argument's not the solid case it used to be. I can understand 90s-era GW not wanting to kill off Character X because it would impact sales of Model X, but that was in a world of single-pose sculpts and where all of their releases formed a permanent part of their stock-keeping.

 

Today, GW has a completely different approach to having everything available all the time, likely because their range is huge. There are:

• Core ranges, which appears in all their stores and is always available – Space Marines Intercessors, for example
• Ranges that are only stocked in larger stores – stuff like the current Boxed game and older or less popular armies like the Age of Sigmar Fyreslayers
• Direct Only stock – Adeptus Titanicus releases and similar material for older Boxed games (Specialist Games/Forge World in old parlance)
• Splash releases which are released once/periodially and not kept in stock – Miniature of the month, anniversary stuff etc.

Since it apparently no longer makes commercial sense for GW to keep everything in stock, it strikes me that most special characters would be an ideal as splash releases that accompany the rules/lore/event books, with others (the 'Big Players') remaining part of core stock.

 

That'd let them be a lot more fluid and flexible, and create much more interesting stories. Imagine if Lieutenant Titus had come out as a 'Miniature of the Month' to help promote and gauge sales of the 500 Worlds: Titus book; and the boxed set of the Captain version had come out at the same time as the book's release? The events of the story could then determine whether Titus lives or dies – and whether the box then becomes a Direct Only item (for people who come along later) or part of the 'larger store' stock.

 

A similar hypothetical – the Gravis-armoured Marneus Calgar is released as a (substantial) splash release, with a story already in place for him to somehow lose it, and for the Terminator-armoured version to replace it as ongoing stock.

 

Space Marines are always a bit egregious, so let's instead look at Minska Lesk, a character that has had three versions already. She's a great example of the approach I'm suggesting above:

1. Make a character and give their 'low-level' version away free so people know who they are. Release a BL book alongside.
2. Create a splash release of a later version to accompany a event/book release a couple of months later.
3. At the end of the event, make the splash release Direct Only, and if they have proven particularly popular, make a version that goes into ongoing stock – or kill them off.

Picture that with the upcoming Tyrant of Badab, Lufgt Huron; or Yriel, the Corsair Prince.

 

This way we see narrative progression of characters that we know and care about, while the commercial side ticks over nicely. If nothing else, having a freebie version of a previously-unknown character would give people investment in events. I'd be much more inclined to buy 'Dheneb: Struggle for the MacGuffin' if I already owned Magos Norris or Striking Scorpion Syril to play the first mission with – particularly if the Archmagos Norris or Autarch Syril model looked cool.

 

+++

 

Even ignoring all of that, we're in an era of multi-pose sprues these days. There are quite a few examples of sculpts that nod to particular characters – the Blood Angels Captain that has a set of options which make a pretty good Tycho is a good example. Why not make more of that? Have one set of options create a special character that's expanded on in a book, and the others be more generic.

 

Ûthar the Destined is a build option in the generic Leagues of Votann blister; Nork Deddog is another example of a character that can be built using options on a sprue – are there more?

 

 

 

I would like to see this more. we got a taste of this with (I think) Caleb Culln of the Red Scorpions during the Imperial Armour books, where he went from humble origins to a commander, and eventually to a dreadnought. It told an interesting story for a character without the fate of the galaxy hinging on it.

 

I do think Armageddon is getting a bit overplayed at this point. Where can Ghazkull go further than this? They can graft his head onto a Stompa to scale him up, but it won't really make him more interesting, it just means you need to play bigger games to justify using him. Saying that, I do like the idea of a character forced to fill Yarrick's shoes. Most of the Guard know Yarrick has been replaced, but keep up the illusion for wider morale, the Orks can't tell the difference since they have never seen Yarrick in person and lived, so this guy keeps fighting both the Orks and his own impostor syndrome, right up to the point that he faces Ghaz, who would instantly know this isn't the real deal in front of him...

 

[apologist]

7 minutes ago, Magos Takatus said:

I would like to see this more. we got a taste of this with (I think) Caleb Culln of the Red Scorpions during the Imperial Armour books, where he went from humble origins to a commander, and eventually to a dreadnought. It told an interesting story for a character without the fate of the galaxy hinging on it.

 

Yes, this real-world progression was such a cool concept. We've also seen it a bit with Lysander, who's moved from being a sergeant in 3rd edition, to Captain of the 2nd, and then Captain of the 1st, but not to quite the same extent.

 

Would love to see more of this – and for it to be balanced against some characters just properly dying.

[Xenith]

On 1/1/2026 at 12:33 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Dorn’s body used to be held by the IF all but one of his hands, now that’s been retconned to they have just his hand…

 

As far as I can remember from 20+ years of fluff, they only ever recovered his hand after that ship explosion - it's scrimshawed and kept in stasis and has been that way since at least 2001 - keen for the citation on having the whole body but the hand! 

[apologist]

52 minutes ago, Xenith said:

As far as I can remember from 20+ years of fluff, they only ever recovered his hand after that ship explosion - it's scrimshawed and kept in stasis and has been that way since at least 2001 - keen for the citation on having the whole body but the hand! 

 

That's from Ian Watson's Space Marine; Dorn's skeleton is held in state:

 

Quote

Directly opposite was the inner chapel to Rogal Dorn, crafted of blocks of compressed sulphurous amber divided by striations of lapis lazuli – and housing the Fists’ holiest relic: the mighty skeleton, embedded in clear amber contoured to body-form, of the primarch himself. The initiates all kneeled, staring at those great bones within that jaundiced false-fossil resinous flesh. [...]The primarch’s hands were both missing…[...]The lights brightened. Where were the primarch’s hands…?

Upon the marble wall to each side of the altar were mounted two sizable ormolu shrines, the double doors of which depicted ancient, angular types of Marine armour. The Reclusiarch threw one set of doors open, then the other. In transparent stasis-cases within, with magnilenses inset, hung Rogal Dorn’s fleshless fists, entire, scrimshandered with intricately wrought tiny miniatures of heraldic honours.

“It is the privilege of the commander of our Chapter alone to inscribe his heraldry as minutely as he can upon these sacred bones,” declared the Reclusiarch. Even so, much of the available surface area of each bone was etched. Thousands of years of commanders, thousands of years of tradition… What a chasm of time – and duty.

Space yet remained on Dorn’s hands for a future Lord Commander Lexandro d’Arquebus to add his own future heraldry… The Reclusiarch anointed each initiate with chrism, the sacred ointment, on the brow. Then he began to recite a litany of the individual bones and of the past commanders who had held this fortress-monastery for the Emperor.

 

“Whenever you flex your fingers, think of these! Whenever you ball your fist around your weapon, these names are all wrapped in your fist to add the strength of adamantium to your blow, the power of all the Sons of Dorn! Hand sinister, first metacarpal: the Lords Bronwin Abermort, Maximus Thane, Kalman Flodensbog. Proximal phalanx of thumb: Ambrosian Spactor…”

 

It's a very old bit of background, and much as I like it, I suspect that the more modern take – of Dorn going missing on a space vessel and only his hand being retrieved – is likely to be where GW pick up the thread, if ever they do.

Edited yesterday at 02:27 PM by apologist

[Jukkiz]

On 1/1/2026 at 12:47 PM, Madao said:

I came here to write the same. This would be something great, instead of a plot failure if they bring him back 'alive'.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 04:18 PM by Jukkiz

[Grotsmasha]

If I recall correctly (take with tablespoons of salt), Ian Watson's Space Marine, and Inquisition Wars book were originally written without GWs input, and Space Marine has never been printed by, but the Inquisition Wars were later reprinted by Black Library.

[Felix Antipodes]

BL did publish an edition of Space Marine in 1993 (I think) as an “non-authoritive” book.  They were pretty adamant that it was no longer canon

 

 

 

Edit: 1993 was the Boxtree edition.  The BL POD edition was 2010.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Felix Antipodes

[roryokane]

I thought part of the reason for Yarrick’s disappearance was because originally the timeline had been advanced a few centuries past the end of M41, and having Yarrick live that long made no sense (and Creed was gone-gone too) - but now that they’ve retconned the setting so it’s only maybe a decade or two post the Fall of Cadia, it’s not impossible the Old Man is kicking about. (Yes, I know Juvenat treatments exist - Cardinal Borja (real original, GW), the cardinal that preceded the Cardinal Xaphan who caused the Vraks revolt, lived like 700 years, for example - , but it’s less of a stretch, that’s all I’m saying).

Edited 9 hours ago by roryokane