Death means nothing

[Antarius]

To my mind, the problem GW faces is twofold: the first part is that they're scared to kill of characters, while simultaneously wanting to "advance the storyline" and thus mostly end up not really advancing the storyline in a meaningful way. The second part is, to quote Lisa Simpson "after so many years, the characters just can't have the same impact they once had" (please sign these papers indicating you did not save Itchy & Scratchy) and of course, introducing new characters tend to run the risk of "Poochifying" the setting (see Belisarius Cawl for a good example, arguably the primarchs too).

Another big part of it is to do with the older generation of fans getting older and more jaded, of course, but I don't think that's all there is to it. I mean, you can't run basically the same plots with the same characters for literal decades and not risk turning them (the wrong kind of) cartoonish. I love Abaddon, but it's hard to get excited about how he's cooked up another dastardly scheme, because I already know it won't actually go anywhere. Similarly, I'm not thrilled and excited when Dante or whoever arrives just in the nick of time to save the day at great (but not really) cost, anymore. Of course part of it is my deadened nerves and worn out neural pathways, but again, I don't think that's all it is.

Ironically, when the setting was locked in time and couldn't progress past "two minutes to midnight", I felt more intrigued by the stories being told within the setting, because, while they obviously couldn't do anything universe-altering, the stories themselves were more interesting and unpredictable, because the stakes were lower for the setting as a whole but still enormous for the individual characters. Now that it's the Lion (or whoever) versus Mortarion (or whoever) fighting over the fate of All of the Known Universe all the time, we know in advance that the stories always have to end in a narrow victory for the status quo and so, they become way less interesting.
Sure, the fate of planet XYZ might not have shifted the status quo back in the day either, but at least you didn't know the outcome before you even picked up the book.

All that being said, I'm not a fan of the "everything was better in the Good Old Days"-type of thinking, and there are still good stories, of course - but they're invariably more limited in scope and focused on "less important" characters.

[Karhedron]

There is a difference between killing characters that only exist in the lore and those that have table-top representation. Cassandra VanLeskus as a major character in the Dawn of Fire series but got killed off in the final installment in battle against the Silent King.

 

As soon as you start killing off characters who have models you start annoying the players of those factions. Tycho lingered for nearly 7 editions as a historical character after his death. I think we just have to accept that characters with models will usually have plot armour in their stories. GW value their IP but we need to remember that they view it as a tool to sell their models rather than a storyline who's literary integrity takes precedence over the sales of models.

[Orange Knight]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

As soon as you start killing off characters who have models you start annoying the players of those factions. Tycho lingered for nearly 7 editions as a historical character after his death. I think we just have to accept that characters with models will usually have plot armour in their stories. GW value their IP but we need to remember that they view it as a tool to sell their models rather than a storyline who's literary integrity takes precedence over the sales of models.

 

This is the simple reality. People need to remember that ultimately the story and lore exist in service of the tabletop miniatures, and not the other way around.

[phandaal]

7 hours ago, Antarius said:

Sure, the fate of planet XYZ might not have shifted the status quo back in the day either, but at least you didn't know the outcome before you even picked up the book.

 

This is one reason why I like Peter Fehervari's black library books. His stories all take place within his own tiny little corner of the universe, but that tiny corner has epic battles, planetary conflicts, legendary heroes and all that. So what if the Cult of the Spiral Dawn isn't going to take over Terra unless they are stopped? It was still badass to read about the Imperium's battle against them.

[Scribe]

4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

There is a difference between killing characters that only exist in the lore and those that have table-top representation. Cassandra VanLeskus as a major character in the Dawn of Fire series but got killed off in the final installment in battle against the Silent King.

 

As soon as you start killing off characters who have models you start annoying the players of those factions. Tycho lingered for nearly 7 editions as a historical character after his death. I think we just have to accept that characters with models will usually have plot armour in their stories. GW value their IP but we need to remember that they view it as a tool to sell their models rather than a storyline who's literary integrity takes precedence over the sales of models.

 

This is why the meta plot is a poor path, 100%

[apologist]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

This is the simple reality. People need to remember that ultimately the story and lore exist in service of the tabletop miniatures, and not the other way around.

 

True, but it's a business decision on which models to create. The commercial 'point' of special characters is to drive the ranges by showcasing particular archetypes or being an excuse for a cool model that says something about the particular range.

 

None of that requires the character to be current in the setting. GW could happily sell a plastic (say) Wolf Guard Ranulf, or Maximus Thane, or Aun'Va, or Commissar Gaunt, if they didn't insist on all their characters being alive in the current timeline.

 

Hell, there have been models who were always historical – Eisenhorn, Anghor Prok, Macharius, Old One Eye for example. There are also characters whose arc has been completed –  Yarrick, Aun'Va, Tycho, Creed, Schaeffer's Last Chancers, the entire 30k setting... –  but the vast majority of GW special characters are nominally alive in the current timeline.

 

If you're set on an ongoing story, that causes problems for certain factions. Eldar, Necrons and Marines, being functionally immortal, aren't a problem – their archetypical characters can carry on as before, but it becomes increasingly awkward to have to come up with compelling (and different) ways for shorter-lived entities to survive. GW have come up with some fun ideas for this, like Tau engram chips, Imperial juvenat treatments and Tyranid respawning, but sometimes – and particularly for the 'smaller-scale' characters, it'd be nice just to have them cash their chips/retire/go out in a blaze of glory without that inherently meaning the model goes off-sale.

 

Sevastus Acheran is a good example of an (arguably) mishandled commercial opportunity. They have a plastic model that matches the character. Re-release the model with a new label and a few free scenarios on Warhammer Community that take you through some of his famous battles, ending with how he 'historically' died, and let the players have fun.

Edited Thursday at 05:28 PM by apologist

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, Grotsmasha said:

 

2nd thought, what if it's all a cruel joke? *TECHNICALLY* any firstborn who upgrades to Primaris dies in the process, right?

 

No. You don’t die to become a primaris marine.

[Karhedron]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

No. You don’t die to become a primaris marine.

 

I believe that technically they do. The Marine's hearts are stopped during the implantation of the new organs and then restarted. The newly implemented Belesarian Furnace responds to the massive trauma by releasing huge amounts of stimulants, growth factors and healing agents to cause the Marine to heal in Primaris form. The original piece of lore that teased the process had the Apothecary confirming that Calgar was dead.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

22 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I believe that technically they do. The Marine's hearts are stopped during the implantation of the new organs and then restarted. The newly implemented Belesarian Furnace responds to the massive trauma by releasing huge amounts of stimulants, growth factors and healing agents to cause the Marine to heal in Primaris form. The original piece of lore that teased the process had the Apothecary confirming that Calgar was dead.

Heart stopping doesn’t mean death. Death is when all brain and bodily functions cease.

[Karhedron]

51 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Heart stopping doesn’t mean death. Death is when all brain and bodily functions cease.

 

GW's own lore says that the subject dies during the procedure.

 

[Scribe]

lol

 

When even Death Company can Primaris level up does it matter if they died?

 

It's more meaningless zero impact change.

[phandaal]

14 minutes ago, Scribe said:

lol

 

When even Death Company can Primaris level up does it matter if they died?

 

It's more meaningless zero impact change.

 

"60% of the time, it works every time. "

[Antarius]

14 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

This is one reason why I like Peter Fehervari's black library books. His stories all take place within his own tiny little corner of the universe, but that tiny corner has epic battles, planetary conflicts, legendary heroes and all that. So what if the Cult of the Spiral Dawn isn't going to take over Terra unless they are stopped? It was still badass to read about the Imperium's battle against them.

I've never read any of his books - I'll have to check them out. Thanks for bringing them my attention 

[Evil Eye]

I definitely miss the "historical" characters. Not 40K but I remember Azhag the Slaughterer getting a magnificent (though apparently nightmarish to build) new model for WHFB, even though he was canonically long dead. The battle report retelling his demise even ended up having him die the same way as in the fluff!

 

I definitely agree a Ziggurat of Doom style scenario to retell Acheran's final stand would have been good. "I probably should have spared more than three men...so much for the power of being a named Ultramarine with no helmet, huh..."