More 11th Edition Boxset Rumours

[Spagunk]

21 minutes ago, CastellanDeMolay said:

...Sternguard are on 32mm bases, and therefore less "Elite" so they get to have 5-10 man squads. Then again, perhaps the Vanvets won't have JPs? Like a kind of veteran Assault Intercessor kit, akin to the Sternguard? 

Sternguard and vanguard were mostly played off as being similar to the traditional "Veteran Marine" squads since 5th edition I think. I personally don't consider them "elite" in the same way as other units that only have 3-6 models. To me they're more like a squad of Veteran marines geared up for specific roles than a truly elite squad on their own. More an Ad Hoc unit than a dedicated one is the vibe I get.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Spagunk said:

Sternguard and vanguard were mostly played off as being similar to the traditional "Veteran Marine" squads since 5th edition I think. I personally don't consider them "elite" in the same way as other units that only have 3-6 models. To me they're more like a squad of Veteran marines geared up for specific roles than a truly elite squad on their own. More an Ad Hoc unit than a dedicated one is the vibe I get.

are you claiming that 1st company marines are not elite?

 

 

[gaurdian31]

1 hour ago, CastellanDeMolay said:

This makes me doubtful of this round of rumors. With almost no exceptions but the BT Sword Brethren and Terminators, all elite units on 40mm bases (which they will be if they have Jump Packs) are now 3-6 models. The BTSB were the first elite unit to get primarized, so they can be an exception to the convention, and Terminators of both flavours are an explicitly "firstborn" type of unit with a lot of nostalgic appeal and they're way too iconic to change much. Sternguard are on 32mm bases, and therefore less "Elite" so they get to have 5-10 man squads. Then again, perhaps the Vanvets won't have JPs? Like a kind of veteran Assault Intercessor kit, akin to the Sternguard? 

The Sternguard Veterans where the first elite unit to get primarized. They were introduced the same time Vanguard Veterans were, why would Van Vets not follow the same path and stay 5-10 man?

[Mogger351]

22 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

are you claiming that 1st company marines are not elite?

 

 

They're saying yes in fluff but in gameplay terms they were just marines with special weapons.

 

Elite in modern linguo often means small head count with unique stats/rules.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

14 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

They're saying yes in fluff but in gameplay terms they were just marines with special weapons.

 

Elite in modern linguo often means small head count with unique stats/rules.

They didn’t say anything about fluff.

 

they said they felt ‘ad hoc’

 

they come in the same squad sizes as terminators. Idk what lingo you’re using

 

[CastellanDeMolay]

2 hours ago, gaurdian31 said:

The Sternguard Veterans where the first elite unit to get primarized. They were introduced the same time Vanguard Veterans were, why would Van Vets not follow the same path and stay 5-10 man?

I think You've misunderstood; when I say "primarized" I mean upscaled from firstborn to Primaris. The Sword Brethren released in November 2021, nearly two years before we got Primaris-scaled Sternguard Veterans. 

 

3 hours ago, Spagunk said:

Sternguard and vanguard were mostly played off as being similar to the traditional "Veteran Marine" squads since 5th edition I think. I personally don't consider them "elite" in the same way as other units that only have 3-6 models. To me they're more like a squad of Veteran marines geared up for specific roles than a truly elite squad on their own. More an Ad Hoc unit than a dedicated one is the vibe I get.

I believe both units are intended to be the mainstay of most chapters first companies, so agree on the whole Veteran Squad comparison. That said, I don't think I understand your distinction between veterancy and eliteness; outside of maybe Dark Angels Company Veterans I'm unaware of a case where those weren't synonymous when discussing space marines. 

[Wispy]

3 hours ago, Spagunk said:

Sternguard and vanguard were mostly played off as being similar to the traditional "Veteran Marine" squads since 5th edition I think. I personally don't consider them "elite" in the same way as other units that only have 3-6 models. To me they're more like a squad of Veteran marines geared up for specific roles than a truly elite squad on their own. More an Ad Hoc unit than a dedicated one is the vibe I get.

They are 1st Company Veterans. When they were introduced they were Elite choices on the Force Organization chart.

 

Pretty open and shut. They are both capital E Elite and lower case e elite.

[BitsHammer]

5 hours ago, Mmmmm Napalm said:

I for one hope devastators get a direct update some day. I don't care if they're "redundant."

 

The news regarding intercessor options is disappointing.

I doubt they will because the Primaris style army construction lets them balance units better than trying to balance around the best weapon a unit has, even if it tripled the datasheet count. Plus they know they can always sell a new box to both old and new players, not just new players who don't have a deep collection yet.

[-DonCorleone-]

1 hour ago, BitsHammer said:

I doubt they will because the Primaris style army construction lets them balance units better than trying to balance around the best weapon a unit has, even if it tripled the datasheet count. Plus they know they can always sell a new box to both old and new players, not just new players who don't have a deep collection yet.

I think that it could be done as a new type of veteran squad. Personally, I would like new veteran squad for heavy weapons, bikes, vanguard(Phobos) etc

[Mogger351]

9 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

They didn’t say anything about fluff.

 

they said they felt ‘ad hoc’

 

they come in the same squad sizes as terminators. Idk what lingo you’re using

 

 

No they called them veterans, which in the fluff they are:

 

Quote

To me they're more like a squad of Veteran marines geared up for specific roles than a truly elite squad on their own. More an Ad Hoc unit than a dedicated one is the vibe I get.

 

The rest is entirely accurate, like it or not. Any unit where veterancy was denoted via combi-weapon access were always used (in game) as a special weapons delivery squad where you picked the weapon you need for the job at hand, which is quite an ad-hoc way of doing it. Their elite veteran status was secondary to firing plasma/melta.

5 hours ago, -DonCorleone- said:

I think that it could be done as a new type of veteran squad. Personally, I would like new veteran squad for heavy weapons, bikes, vanguard(Phobos) etc

So deathwatch basically?

[Orange Knight]

Thinking more about this set and how it's sounding awfully dull to me, and I really don't want to be negative about it as I'm hotly anticipating 11th edition, and have even begun work on a new 40k Astartes army (which will be obvious for people to guess). In the new set we have:

 

-4 Characters, 3 of which already exist and in multiple variations.
-A refreshed veteran unit that is easy to convert from existing kits.
-A new speeder that no one asked for.
-Intercessors with a bit more bling but no additional wargear.

-A heavy bolter unit that feels wholly redundant.

 

Perhaps it's because Marines just have too many units so surprises are starting to run thin, or perhaps they are playing it too safe. There are so many exciting things they could be doing - new Centurions, Gravis unit with Grav weapons, etc.
It would be a positive for me if the generic Astartes releases are more limited in the next edition and instead they focus on fleshing out the different chapters even more, but there's no way to know if this is the intent.

[kabaakaba]

I think edition starter set oriented for new players who don't have 50 shades of captains.  So they don't be complaining that this captain looks like that. 

On other hand I'll be happy get another kind of cadians so they don't look the same. On 150++ infantry models it's too obvious even with heads and hands swap

[BitsHammer]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Thinking more about this set and how it's sounding awfully dull to me, and I really don't want to be negative about it as I'm hotly anticipating 11th edition, and have even begun work on a new 40k Astartes army (which will be obvious for people to guess). In the new set we have:

 

-4 Characters, 3 of which already exist and in multiple variations.
-A refreshed veteran unit that is easy to convert from existing kits.
-A new speeder that no one asked for.
-Intercessors with a bit more bling but no additional wargear.

-A heavy bolter unit that feels wholly redundant.

 

Perhaps it's because Marines just have too many units so surprises are starting to run thin, or perhaps they are playing it too safe. There are so many exciting things they could be doing - new Centurions, Gravis unit with Grav weapons, etc.
It would be a positive for me if the generic Astartes releases are more limited in the next edition and instead they focus on fleshing out the different chapters even more, but there's no way to know if this is the intent.

I mean most releases are stuff that no one asked for because no one thought of it.

 

I for one would like a lighter skimmer if it's cheaper and smaller so it's more useable than the current ones but I never thought of asking for one.

 

Honestly the updated Jump Chaplain is probably the thing I'm more interested in the box, but I'm speaking as someone who has been considering starting Doom Eagles so the more jump units we have available the better.

[NorthernUltramarines]

28 minutes ago, kabaakaba said:

I think edition starter set oriented for new players who don't have 50 shades of captains.  So they don't be complaining that this captain looks like that. 

 

I think that's the real key point. Those big launch boxes are great and good value, even if you only want one side and the new rulebook. These sets are really just expanded starter sets however and ultimately if you already have a large collection of Marines, they'll always be a slightly hard sell. When we were in the new era of Primaris and it's all new then it's an easy sell, but people were far more critical of the marine offerings in Leviathan because we already had so many marines in our collections. 

 

This will be an amazing pickup for first time 40k fans or people wanting to start marines, which will be up after Space Marine 2/Secret Level and everyone who used to (or still!) loves Orks. I'm happy for all of this as they'll be fun to paint and the captain/ancient/libby can get put into a box for conversions. My real want with this box is enough terrain for combat patrol games with friends, and some good looking Vanguard Vets.

[Mogger351]

Do we think this might be the first launch box in a while that doesn't sell like poop off a stick?

[Orange Knight]

I understand that the intention might be to attract entirely new players 1st and foremost, but when you compare what is being talked about here to the wow factor we got with the Indomitus box, as an example; The Assault Intercessors, the Bladeguard Veterans and Eradicators - these are all entirely new units that were very well received. The whole set had a martial aesthetic that people loved too.

 

The 10th edition launch box played it safer, and this one seems to be continuing that

Edited 23 hours ago by Orange Knight

[sarabando]

10 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Do we think this might be the first launch box in a while that doesn't sell like poop off a stick?

40k one maybe but the AOS ones and the last 30k ones have all done poorly. 

[WinterWarGamer]

1 hour ago, kabaakaba said:

I think edition starter set oriented for new players who don't have 50 shades of captains.  So they don't be complaining that this captain looks like that. 

On other hand I'll be happy get another kind of cadians so they don't look the same. On 150++ infantry models it's too obvious even with heads and hands swap

 

Though edition launch boxes aren't starter sets and not intended for new players. GW themselves have said that and the fact that there's no dice, rulers and terrain in the set support it. You cannot play with just the Leviathan or Indomitus box, so they aren't starter sets. Armageddon is bound to continue this trend. They're meant for existing players as something that grips them into the new edition. 

[Orange Knight]

48 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

I mean most releases are stuff that no one asked for because no one thought of it.

 

 

I missed this.

To respond: We have absolutely thought about Heavy Bolter squads and different speeder types, but they weren't high on anyone's list of priority releases. I'm not saying that no one will be excited about them.

 

I'm saying that from my point of view, I wasn't looking at the 3 stormspeeders and thinking: "You know what we're really missing? A slightly smaller speeder with less firepower"

The Vanguard Vets on the other hand were outright expected by people.

[Xirix]

18 hours ago, Mmmmm Napalm said:

I for one hope devastators get a direct update some day. I don't care if they're "redundant."

 

The news regarding intercessor options is disappointing.

If The Scouring gets models later on. *crosses fingers*

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

Do we think this might be the first launch box in a while that doesn't sell like poop off a stick?

 

I doubt it. 40k edition boxes always sell well. The Marines may be a bit underwhelming for existing players but I am sure enough people will still want them. Orks are one of the more popular Xenos factions so I suspect that will help. 

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, WinterWarGamer said:

 

Though edition launch boxes aren't starter sets and not intended for new players. GW themselves have said that and the fact that there's no dice, rulers and terrain in the set support it. You cannot play with just the Leviathan or Indomitus box, so they aren't starter sets. Armageddon is bound to continue this trend. They're meant for existing players as something that grips them into the new edition. 

Again, skaventide was the last launch box and entirely playable out the box via spearhead. If they want combat patrol to be as successful then they will likely pivot to match imo.

11 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I doubt it. 40k edition boxes always sell well. The Marines may be a bit underwhelming for existing players but I am sure enough people will still want them. Orks are one of the more popular Xenos factions so I suspect that will help. 

Yeah it will sell well, I just can't imagine it'll be as well in comparison to the last 2. The marine contents services the majority of the customer base if we're honest, if it's not exciting for them, then it's not a positive omen.

Edited 21 hours ago by Mogger351

[gaurdian31]

14 hours ago, CastellanDeMolay said:

I think You've misunderstood; when I say "primarized" I mean upscaled from firstborn to Primaris. The Sword Brethren released in November 2021, nearly two years before we got Primaris-scaled Sternguard Veterans. 

Sorry, that's me mixing up releases. Don't know why I thought Sternguard came out before Sword Brethren. I was thinking the SB came out after Leviathan but you are correct, SB came out first. Still, I think Vanguard will be coming with their jump packs in a unit of 5-10 as they are the melee veterans to the Sternguard's ranged veterans.

[Marshal Reinhard]

19 hours ago, CastellanDeMolay said:

This makes me doubtful of this round of rumors. With almost no exceptions but the BT Sword Brethren and Terminators, all elite units on 40mm bases (which they will be if they have Jump Packs) are now 3-6 models. The BTSB were the first elite unit to get primarized, so they can be an exception to the convention, and Terminators of both flavours are an explicitly "firstborn" type of unit with a lot of nostalgic appeal and they're way too iconic to change much. Sternguard are on 32mm bases, and therefore less "Elite" so they get to have 5-10 man squads. Then again, perhaps the Vanvets won't have JPs? Like a kind of veteran Assault Intercessor kit, akin to the Sternguard? 

uhh.. why are you so hung up on base size? Why couldn't they have 32 mm bases like the sternguard?

 

Also, why even bother with that reasoning with regards to terminators? They're on 40 mm bases because they're big. Even gravis armor, of all types, including heavy intercessors are on 40 mm bases.

Edited 20 hours ago by Marshal Reinhard

[Spagunk]

20 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

are you claiming that 1st company marines are not elite?

 

 

No, that is not what I am claiming. I used a double quote because saying something is elite has more than one connotations: Elite as in the best of the best or Elite as in very limited and specialized etc.

 

Veteran Sergeants and Veteran Marines were written for a long time as generally being part of the first company. It's the reason they may have terminator honors and have the first company "skull" symbol instead of a tactical arrow or anything else. This hasn't changed for at least two decades. Veterans are just marines from the 1st company. They can fill any role they need when outside the 1st company. My point being that an Elite slot Force Org choice shouldn't assume a 3-6 model unit just because they fill an elite slot or come from an elite company.

 

It was clearly pointed out that the rumor that Vanguard Vets are going to be 5 man squads was the reason the rumor was false. I point out that Stern/Vanguard vets aren't dedicated units in the traditional sense but are veterans "on loan" from the 1st company. Meanwhile other 3-6 model units tend to be more dedicated than either Sternguard/Vanguard vets and thus are more limited in squad size. Bladeguard being a good example since they're a dedicated role with models specifically from the 1st company.

 

As usual, rumors are rumors so everyone is free to believe whatever they want. However I personally believe them since Vanguards are the melee counter part to Sternguard since at least 5th edition so they're likely to remain a squad of 5-10.
 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Spagunk