More 11th Edition Boxset Rumours

[phandaal]

16 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

This is ignoring (to pick on bolter marines but any standard infantry is the same from the 3rd-7th era generally) the fact bolter boys had minor variations on "oh I sharted"

 

I'll admit that I am not as read up on Space Marine pooping as the next guy, but I am pretty sure their armor takes care of waste management.

 

But yeah, when I think about older kits' variations, I am wishing for modern proportions with that same kind of free-form ability to pose. Even on 10 Marines, that makes a difference. Especially when you have multiple squads. Heck, it even makes a difference for 3-man squads when you have enough of them.

 

I think people are focusing too much on the fact that you can glue a torso on backwards or whatever, and then mocking that kind of "variation" as if that is what people are talking about, which obviously is not the case.

 

Anyway, I guess we are talking about build possibilities in potential new boxes?  Yeah, more options for poses would be neat.

[01RTB01]

4 hours ago, Redcomet said:

Oh look, another “everything was better 20 years ago” . They never happen whenever primaris are talked about…

 

Although the older sculpts had their challenges. They had much more character than the modern sculpts (kommandos notwithstanding).

 

I'd love to see some of the new ork stuff in the box have some clan flavour to it. 

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

 

Having assembled and painted hundreds of fantasy undead, slight variations in angles of torsos, arms, heads etc makes a huge difference from gaming distances.

 

A set of 5 poses will very obviously repeat even with 10-20 models. A set of 100 miniatures with even tiny variations will look like an organized group of figures.

This is pretty much the size of it. You don't need drastically different poses to get a decently varied and unique set of models- even a slight shift in pose will make them stand apart.

I will also say that even if you nix waist joints you can still have a decent range of possible poses; the problem is twofold. Firstly, the minis are not just designed with less points to pose them at, they're far, far more locked in to certain poses than before; it's much harder or in some cases outright impossible to swap limbs between bodies. Some ranges like Chaos Space Marines are much better than others, admittedly; I love the EC Tormentor kit. Tyranids however, once incredibly modular with universally sized balljoints for every arm, are now almost completely monopose without heavy cutting and gap filling. Every squad of ten Termagants with the same weapons will be a repeat; not only are the arms only able to be built into one position, but the heads are now moulded onto the bodies, so you can't even have them looking in different directions. The other problem is that the poses they're locked into are quite distinct and obvious to spot repeats of, so not only do multiples of the same pose become incredibly egregious but without substantial resculpting even conversions and kitbashes are quite obviously based on a specific model rather than a unique miniature unto itself. Speaking of conversion, I also find that modern kits are sorely lacking in useful extras when you've assembled the kit. Older kits like the Tyranid Warrior box have a huge amount of cool extra parts you can do stuff with. By comparison, I was pleasantly surprised that the new Lictor bucked the trend of many newer kits and had spare rending claws and legs- and the legs are technically incomplete.

 

It's not even like it's impossible to make kits with huge amounts of customization despite lacking waists either. Wargames Atlantic, North Star etc make amazingly convertable/kitbash-friendly sets and the bodies for those often don't have waists. Sure they're microscopically less detailed due to the parts breakdown, but usually this amounts to "you can't take an upskirt shot of the models' posteriors that you'd never see on the tabletop anyway and would probably be obscured by the bases even if you turned them upside down", and the tradeoff is the equally jam-packed sprues are filled with extra heads, arms, accoutrements etc rather than a single infantry model requiring 16 parts to assemble, with 8 of those being the main body (resulting in tonnes of annoying seams to fill and in service to detail that's actually impossible to reach with a paintbrush if you assemble the model such that said seams are filled- looking at you, Tor Garadon.)

 

Also, to echo Phandaal's other point, keeping the standard Marine assembly system but giving them a slightly longer torso and legs would have been perfectly achievable- that's basically what the 100% printed Marine in my earlier scale pick was. The only real change I would make to the system, again to repeat myself somewhat, is to move the sculpted belt to the legs instead of the chest and invert the balljoint direction (socket on legs instead of chest) just to make poses look a bit more natural.

Edited Wednesday at 11:20 PM by Evil Eye
Had not quite finished making my point, whoops!

[Jukkiz]

Speaking of Devastators, Primarinades are missing weapons from their arsenal

 

[Robbienw]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

This is ignoring (to pick on bolter marines but any standard infantry is the same from the 3rd-7th era generally) the fact bolter boys had minor variations on "oh I sharted" legs

 

That description also applies to 95%of primaris/MkX leg poses as well though, most of them are squatting.  Particularly the Gravis ones.  Most of the other 5% being falling/tripping poses that were presumably meant to be running.

 

 There were dozens of different leg pose variation across the various classic kits that could be interchanged.  Primaris leg poses are nothing new, just a bit bigger.  The waist posing allowed minor variations that added a lot to squad variation coupled with all the different helmet and chest variations.  Being able to move the waste a small amount makes a huge difference at that size.

[Nephaston]

It's certainly a possibility that the modeling team will opt for Orb-waists where they deem it sensible, such as the new Cataphractii where the ginormous chestplate obstructs enough.

Other than that I'd generally prefer detail over poseability, though i also have the tendency of never getting more than one unit of the same kit, which is even less of an issue with marine bodies where you can just steal from whatever subfaction you want.

 

Or Plague Marines with their 28-ish recent-ish models baseline (7 starter set ones, 3 ETB, 7 multipart, the 3 plague brethren, 6 blind box/kill team ones, plague champion, icon bearer formerly).

 

Also what is running if not just stumbling forwards with intent.

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

I'll admit that I am not as read up on Space Marine pooping as the next guy, but I am pretty sure their armor takes care of waste management.

 

But yeah, when I think about older kits' variations, I am wishing for modern proportions with that same kind of free-form ability to pose. Even on 10 Marines, that makes a difference. Especially when you have multiple squads. Heck, it even makes a difference for 3-man squads when you have enough of them.

 

I think people are focusing too much on the fact that you can glue a torso on backwards or whatever, and then mocking that kind of "variation" as if that is what people are talking about, which obviously is not the case.

 

Anyway, I guess we are talking about build possibilities in potential new boxes?  Yeah, more options for poses would be neat.

Most of those "shifts" fit exactly in line with what I said though. They look bad. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

To ol' mate who thinks this is about Firstborn vs Primaris, it's not, these new dudes will be Primaris. No dramas.

This is about construction styles.

Hopefully they look cool and have heaps of poses Regardless of Armour Mark and scale.

 

Now, Imagine a world where a 10 man squad of Marines , in any Mk of armour came with 5 different legs, 5 different torsos and 5 different pairs of arms.

That's 125 different dudes, not even including different heads, different backpacks, different paudrons,  different weapons and so on.

We had that, and still do to a lessor degree ATM, for example, my Complete Battle Company of 108 dudes has zero dudes the same.

Elites are not quite as good, to be expected, but still 45 TDA, no repeats, and no backwards torsos at all 

 

Hopefully these new dudes have a similar variety of poses to cater for the large army enthusiasts. They don't rank up like fantasy units, so you really can tell if there are too many the same.

And hopefully they're not like the Kill Team Deathwatch minis construction style. They are brilliant in themselves, but without expert level converting are basically monopose. Sure each dude can make two or three options, so a repeated box of 5 can make 13-15ish, but it's far more finite than the older construction style. 

 

It's really just worrying about an unknown ATM, it could be worse, but it could be better... here's hoping for that.

 

[Xenith]

=][= Lets keep this topic about the 11th edition boxed set please, and not go too deep into the various merits of waist joints =][=

[Indy Techwisp]

Idk why we were even talking about wait joints since the starter boxes are usually push fit Monopose

[Karhedron]

10 hours ago, Jukkiz said:

Speaking of Devastators, Primarinades are missing weapons from their arsenal

 

Yes, Lascannons and Grav weapons are still missing from their arsenal (personally I don't think Eliminators with Las Fusils pack enough punch to be a serious contender in the anti-vehicle role). Having said that, Marines are not short of anti-tank firepower with Eradicators, Lancers, Executioners, Predators, Vindicators and even Land Raiders being well suited to the job. Maybe GW don't feel Marines need a dedicated long-ranged anti-tank option on an infantry platform given the wide variety of other options available.

[Karhedron]

11 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

If memory serves valrak talked of the potential of an updated land speeder in the box too. 

 

I recall that rumour. IIRC was something along the lines of a Land Speeder Storm, in that it would be a light transport for Scouts and/or Phobos units.

 

The question is what role it would fulfil? Most Scout and Phobos units can Infiltrate or Scout while the Impulsor fits the role of a light, fast transport. I am always happy to see more Marine stuff but the roster is pretty full so finding a new niche without stepping on the roles of existing units is an interesting challenge.

[Indy Techwisp]

11 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

If memory serves valrak talked of the potential of an updated land speeder in the box too. 

 

IIRC there's also an outstanding rumour for non-pushfit Outriders as well.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

IIRC there's also an outstanding rumour for non-pushfit Outriders as well.

 

There is indeed although I would not expect to see those in the 11th edition box. I would expect to see them in the Marine wave we expect will follow in the Autumn.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I recall that rumour. IIRC was something along the lines of a Land Speeder Storm, in that it would be a light transport for Scouts and/or Phobos units.

 

The question is what role it would fulfil? Most Scout and Phobos units can Infiltrate or Scout while the Impulsor fits the role of a light, fast transport. I am always happy to see more Marine stuff but the roster is pretty full so finding a new niche without stepping on the roles of existing units is an interesting challenge.

Same role the transport speeder filled previously…rhino and impulsor fill the same niche

[Indy Techwisp]

9 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I recall that rumour. IIRC was something along the lines of a Land Speeder Storm, in that it would be a light transport for Scouts and/or Phobos units.

 

The question is what role it would fulfil? Most Scout and Phobos units can Infiltrate or Scout while the Impulsor fits the role of a light, fast transport. I am always happy to see more Marine stuff but the roster is pretty full so finding a new niche without stepping on the roles of existing units is an interesting challenge.

 

Didn't that "Landspeeder" turn out to be the engine of the White Scars Gravbike?

[Craig]

11 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I recall that rumour. IIRC was something along the lines of a Land Speeder Storm, in that it would be a light transport for Scouts and/or Phobos units.

If a landspeeder transport was included in the box there would have to also be a unit that it could transport.

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

16 hours ago, Craig said:

If a landspeeder transport was included in the box there would have to also be a unit that it could transport.

Very Respectful disagree because GW just doesn't think like that. Gravis Apothecary came in a box with no unit for him to join.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

Very Respectful disagree because GW just doesn't think like that. Gravis Apothecary came in a box with no unit for him to join.

That was 9th iirc and HQs weren’t joining units back then.

[Orange Knight]

I think the speeder will probably exist, but I doubt it will come in this box.

I imagine it might drop with a future Dark Angels Ravenwing wave, even if the model is generic and usable by all Marines.


So, to summarise, for this box we have:

 

10 New Intercessors
5 New Vanguard

Jump Chaplain

 

There will be at least one new Captain, and because the box is themed after the old BA starter from 2nd edition, I'm expecting a Power Fist raised in the air and a Bolter in the other hand.

 

I'm expecting a new Dreadought - perhaps a Venerable Redemptor or a Librarian Redemptor. "The big Marine model" in the set. Either of these variants would suit the BA, and the wider chapter selection.

Finally, 3 Gravis models with Grav weapons? Prior starter sets had Eradicators, Bladeguard, etc - these were other units that fit the 3-6 elite archetype. I am picturing a Gravis unit armed with a shoulder mounted grav gun, and then a power sword in one hand, and a bolt pistol in the other? I think models like this could look very cool.

 

[01RTB01]

9 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I think the speeder will probably exist, but I doubt it will come in this box.

 

I'm expecting a new Dreadought - perhaps a Venerable Redemptor or a Librarian Redemptor. "The big Marine model" in the set. Either of these variants would suit the BA, and the wider chapter selection.

 

 

Respectfully, you're dismissing our #1 rumour monger and expecting something as yet unmentioned? I'm fairly certain valrak has said speeder in the box.

[DemonGSides]

8 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

Respectfully, you're dismissing our #1 rumour monger and expecting something as yet unmentioned? I'm fairly certain valrak has said speeder in the box.

 

Valraks initial post doesn't mention them so idk how certain he is. 

[Orange Knight]

15 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

Respectfully, you're dismissing our #1 rumour monger and expecting something as yet unmentioned? I'm fairly certain valrak has said speeder in the box.

 

Yeah, he has mentioned this before, but he also states that he's heard conflicting info from different sources on occasions.

[Karhedron]

48 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

That was 9th iirc and HQs weren’t joining units back then.

 

No it was 10th edition. 

[ZeroWolf]

Yeah the Apothecary Biologis was in Leviathan. However, it's possible that he was included at a moment before the squad attachment rules came into play as we know models come first before rules. I just wouldn't like to bet on the certainty of that in regards to ut happening again.

 

As far as the speeder goes it was mentioned a lot in the earlier rumours, predating even the blood angel colours one. It's something I could certainly see, as it could be a call back to the 3rd edition starter.