New generic unit variation ideas.

[HeadlessCross]

14 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Iron Hands:

No idea what you'd call it but a unit consisting of a (non-named) Terminator armoured Techmarine with a squad of Servitors would be pretty nice.

The last unique unit I've seen mentioned in the fluff was the Helfathers, which should be able to be handled with any Terminator squad or a generic Terminator Honour Guard. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

......which has been explicitly a problem and a Librarian Dread has been asked for as a generic option for years. 

Why should any geneline have any unique war gear or unit access then?

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Why should any geneline have any unique war gear or unit access then?

Precisely my point. It's one thing if you're looking at just 30k, where it was just the 18 Legions and there was some odd experimental wargear and unit organization. 

 

It's been 11k years since then, and at minimum 1000 Marine Chapters existed (which of course doesn't incorporate deceased Chapters and the new ones formed). It's absolutely wild that there's only one Chapter with rules for Crusaders, despite multiple Chapters doing what the Black Templars do, and yet they aren't allowed Librarians. Or how multiple Chapters have Marines that go a wee bit nuts, yet those rules only exist for Blood Angels with Death Company. 

 

If you want to make an accurate Black Templars force with no Librarians that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't mean there shouldn't be access to begin with to create your own Chapter. 

[Evil Eye]

7 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

If you want to make an accurate Black Templars force with no Librarians that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't mean there shouldn't be access to begin with to create your own Chapter. 

If you want to use Librarians, build your chapter with Codex: Space Marines.

[jaxom]

11 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

 

If you want to make an accurate Black Templars force with no Librarians that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't mean there shouldn't be access to begin with to create your own Chapter. 

 

3 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

If you want to use Librarians, build your chapter with Codex: Space Marines.

As in there’s a generic Crusader squad and it can be taken in same army as a Librarian? And then that if one wants Librarians one shouldn’t be using a Crusader-themed squad?

[Dezron]

Let's give Marines in Phobos armor some love:

 

Special weapon options (like Flamer, Melta, etc.) for Phobos Marines. 

 

Melee focused generic Phobos unit. 

 

Veterans in Phobos (and Gravis cause why not) Armor. 

 

Multi-part Phobos Captain. 

 

 

[HeadlessCross]

4 hours ago, jaxom said:

 

As in there’s a generic Crusader squad and it can be taken in same army as a Librarian?

Correct. Arbitrary restrictions for the sake of restrictions and selling rules should be a no-go. Did adding other vanilla Marine units to Blood Angels and Dark Angels break anything? 

[HeadlessCross]

7 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

If you want to use Librarians, build your chapter with Codex: Space Marines.

Did...did you read anything I said?

[Evil Eye]

3 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Did...did you read anything I said?

Yes, yes I did. You can still have a Crusader-themed Space Marine army without using the Black Templar Codex if you want Librarians. But if you want to run Black Templars in all but name, they won't have Librarians because The Black Templars do not employ psykers in battle. That is a core part of their theme, and as the rules are supposed to represent the fluff on the tabletop (it being, you know, a tabletop wargame, intended to simulate fictional battles in miniature) that restriction stands. Unless you just want the added buffs of Black Templars without any of the downsides (like no Librarians) in which case that is exactly what that sort of restriction is there to avoid.

 

Of course, you could always run /yourdudes/ with the BT Codex and a Librarian ported over from the SM book. You'd just have to ask your opponent if they were cool with that.

[Tacitus]

21 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Why should any geneline have any unique war gear or unit access then?

Why should any faction have any unique units or rules?  Just put everyone in cloth armor with pointy sticks?  Variety is for variety.  For the most part a big blob of smaller models vs 1 (balanced in point and power) big model isn't that different in the rules.  It fudges a little with toughness vs wounds vs number of attacks etc - but generally they work out pretty similar. It just feels different because it looks different.  Bespoke Chapter/Legion/Sept/whatever units just continue that out to another level.  Salamanders have Melta Terminators because Salamanders lean into Melta.  That's what makes Salamanders different than Ultramarines.  Blood Angel Terminators move 6" because Blood Angels overcharge the engines on everything.  That's what Blood Angels do.  Among other things.  I mean we CAN replace all the models and rules differences with a bunch of round red disks and black disks and the winner is the attacker, but I'm pretty sure people play this game for more variety not less. 

[Tacitus]

4 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Correct. Arbitrary restrictions for the sake of restrictions and selling rules should be a no-go. Did adding other vanilla Marine units to Blood Angels and Dark Angels break anything? 

They're not arbitrary.  They're thematic additions and subtractions to create the appearance of variety.  Does it really change much if instead of taking a Librarian leader you take an Emperor's Champion leader?  Additionally, the Black Templars do not have the OOM faction rule.  Many of their Leaders are designed with that in mind.  Execrators overlap Doctrines.  Castellans overlap OOM. This is yet another example of variety not arbitrary.  Its not "arbitrary" to tell people who have OOM they can't take something else that overlaps OOM because that something else was designed specifically for Not-OOM. 

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

Yes, yes I did. You can still have a Crusader-themed Space Marine army without using the Black Templar Codex if you want Librarians. But if you want to run Black Templars in all but name, they won't have Librarians because The Black Templars do not employ psykers in battle. That is a core part of their theme, and as the rules are supposed to represent the fluff on the tabletop (it being, you know, a tabletop wargame, intended to simulate fictional battles in miniature) that restriction stands. Unless you just want the added buffs of Black Templars without any of the downsides (like no Librarians) in which case that is exactly what that sort of restriction is there to avoid.

 

Of course, you could always run /yourdudes/ with the BT Codex and a Librarian ported over from the SM book. You'd just have to ask your opponent if they were cool with that.

But Black Templars are the only army to have Crusader squads, despite there being multiple crusading Chapters.  That doesn't work, wouldn't you agree?

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

Every Space Marine squad is a crusader squad unless you just don’t crusade hard enough. 
 

In which case, off to the pain glove for penance, brother. 
 

Jokes aside, any crusading chapter can represent their nature just fine without needing to use the Crusader Squad datasheet. Or, if you want to be a literal Black Templars offshoot with different colors, then the cost is no librarians. Sometimes good alternative options require tradeoffs. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

12 hours ago, Dezron said:

Let's give Marines in Phobos armor some love:

 

Special weapon options (like Flamer, Melta, etc.) for Phobos Marines. 

 

Melee focused generic Phobos unit. 

 

Veterans in Phobos (and Gravis cause why not) Armor. 

 

Multi-part Phobos Captain. 

 

 

What upgrade sprue comes with flamers or meltas?

[jaxom]

Yeah, the BT Crusader squad is something of a misnomer. It's not crusading which makes it a BT squad, it's the mix of Initiates and Neophytes. I don't mind that concept being generic, I just wish it were paired with a rule that meant you then couldn't take Scout Squads.