How to fix the fire strike turret?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Looking at the datasheet I think it should be T7, and the guns should get a boost of some sort.

maybe an extra attack?

so 4 autocannon shots and 3 lastalon shots I think.

 

We could leave the ability, but I could also see an argument to change it.

[kabaakaba]

It's strange it don't have 4 shots on autocannon. And it should have sustained or rapid fire.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, kabaakaba said:

It's strange it don't have 4 shots on autocannon. And it should have sustained or rapid fire.

It’s weird it has 3.

 

twin linked guns normally have the shots of a single weapon.

 

But they need the autocannons to have more attacks than the talons to try to offset the much higher S and AP of the talons, but I don’t think 1 more shot even comes close to that.

 

maybe 5 autocannon attacks could balance things out. I’m not sure 4 would.

[Orange Knight]

I think it's a decent unit. 

 

2 of them with Las Talons cost the same as one Ballistus. That's 4 Twin-linked las talon shots, BS 2+, 12 wounds with a 2+ save and they can actually do something in overwatch, although it's very situational.

They are much better in Gladius when you can advance and shoot.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I think it's a decent unit. 

 

2 of them with Las Talons cost the same as one Ballistus. That's 4 Twin-linked las talon shots, BS 2+, 12 wounds with a 2+ save and they can actually do something in overwatch, although it's very situational.

They are much better in Gladius when you can advance and shoot.

But is a unit good if it’s only good in one detachment?

 

For the same price as a ballistus you’re losing out on a lot of mobility, and a decent melee threat.

[Karhedron]

18 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

For the same price as a ballistus you’re losing out on a lot of mobility, and a decent melee threat.

 

Not to mention that the Ballistus is T10 making those 12 wounds count for significantly more.

 

The Ballistus is also longer ranged. Its lascannons are S12 making them significantly better at anti-tank work while its missile launchers can switch to frag making it better at anti-infantry.

 

I think the Ballistus is actually good comparison because it is the same points as 2 Firestrikes but I cannot think of any situation where the firestrikes out-performs the Ballistus. I think that the Firestrikes would have to come down to under 60ppm before they would even be worth considering.

Edited February 4 by Karhedron

[Orange Knight]

They are definitely usable still.

 

I don't think everything needs to be great in every detachment. Look at how good the Storm Raven is inside the Stormlance detachment, for example.

 

Although with 11th edition coming, we might see big changes to units like this. The servo turrets look great.

 

3 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Not to mention that the Ballistus is T10 making those 12 wounds count for significantly more.

 

Yes this does make a difference, but honestly, if you get them into cover and use a defensive strat, you can still make them tough.

 

Pople under-estimate them and don't focus fire them down. To clarify, I'm not saying this is some incredible unit, but it's also cheap enough and usable enough that it doesn't take away from most lists and can pull it's weight.

Edited February 4 by Orange Knight

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

They are definitely usable still.

 

I don't think everything needs to be great in every detachment. Look at how good the Storm Raven is inside the Stormlance detachment, for example.

 

Although with 11th edition coming, we might see big changes to units like this. The servo turrets look great.

 

 

Yes this does make a difference, but honestly, if you get them into cover and use a defensive strat, you can still make them tough.

 

Pople under-estimate them and don't focus fire them down. To clarify, I'm not saying this is some incredible unit, but it's also cheap enough and usable enough that it doesn't take away from most lists and can pull it's weight.

But at that point you’re investing even more into them than just their points to make them good.

 

if the stat line isn’t good, the unit isn’t good.

[Chaplain Augustus]

If they could overwatch for free AND at 4+ to hit...  then they would be fully playable. Otherwise you'll have to start to reevaluate stats/pts. 

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Chaplain Augustus said:

If they could overwatch for free AND at 4+ to hit...  then they would be fully playable. Otherwise you'll have to start to reevaluate stats/pts. 

Make them double a single gun shots and NOT twin Linked.  4 Las Talon shots, 6 Autocannon shots.  I'd squadron them in 3's and give them 4OC per base.  Give them a Techmarine's Melee, and the Repair a vehicle within X".  Basically Make them a Techmarine built into the Sled with OC and the big guns on the Sled, make it roll Half-D6 for Advancing..   Make it all about the trade off for mobility.  3 Bases, 12ish OC, 12/18 fairly/really nice shots, Gravis defense numbers (one base is roughly equivalent to 2 Gravis Bases defensively)  Trade a little OC and a lot of mobility for better shooting, in a 200ish point unit.  I think its still a trap, but its a trap you can play both ways now.  Very tempting to take that shooting platform, but you better be able to get around or punish the mobility depending on if you took em or your opponent did. 

[HeadlessCross]

17 hours ago, Chaplain Augustus said:

If they could overwatch for free AND at 4+ to hit...  then they would be fully playable. Otherwise you'll have to start to reevaluate stats/pts. 

It needs a whole different bespoke rule in general. Neither weapon option is good for Overwatch, even if accurate. 

 

You fix the rule, you fix the unit itself. 

[Orange Knight]

I agree the bespoke rule is underwhelming and situaional for this unit.

The rule could be made better if the unit could automatically overwatch and hit on a 4+

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

I agree the bespoke rule is underwhelming and situaional for this unit.

The rule could be made better if the unit could automatically overwatch and hit on a 4+

Even then, it doesn't have great weapons for Overwatch. It just needs an entirely new rule, but I'm not sure what that rule would be. There's not a lot of niches it can fill. 

[redmapa]

The main flaws of the unit are its guns suck and it barely moves so I wouldn't focus on its role as a gun platform and instead change it into a support platform, something like the Scout Sentinel in IG

 

Coordinated Strike: Once per shooting phase choose one enemy unit that was shot by this Servo turret, that unit cannot benefit from cover this phase when shot by other SM units in your army

Repositioning: Once per game this unit can make a 10" movement, it cannot advance

 

Something like that,  so now its guns are not its whole reason to exist and you can make it useful throughout the game instead of it becoming irrelevant when its stuck in a position where there aren't any units in LoS.

[DemonGSides]

Yeah it either needs to get better at being an overwatch turret, or it needs to switch to doing something like the Speeders do with regards to buffing other units. I think that's more interesting than "Semi-fixed position does more damage". 

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, redmapa said:

The main flaws of the unit are its guns suck and it barely moves so I wouldn't focus on its role as a gun platform and instead change it into a support platform, something like the Scout Sentinel in IG

 

Coordinated Strike: Once per shooting phase choose one enemy unit that was shot by this Servo turret, that unit cannot benefit from cover this phase when shot by other SM units in your army

Repositioning: Once per game this unit can make a 10" movement, it cannot advance

 

Something like that,  so now its guns are not its whole reason to exist and you can make it useful throughout the game instead of it becoming irrelevant when its stuck in a position where there aren't any units in LoS.

There's a Speeder already providing Ignores Cover, so that's not a great niche. 

 

I also feel a movement bonus type move just doesn't work thematically. It's a GOOD rule for it to have, but it doesn't make sense. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Even then, it doesn't have great weapons for Overwatch. It just needs an entirely new rule, but I'm not sure what that rule would be. There's not a lot of niches it can fill. 

Maybe give it DS, and a 6” DS rule?

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Maybe give it DS, and a 6” DS rule?

Well the Deep Strike 6" is already a niche held by Inceptors, but it's at least a start. 

 

I'm less concerned with their mobility (using them in Gladius or Firestorm) but Deep Strike should be something they should have in general. 

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, redmapa said:

The main flaws of the unit are its guns suck and it barely moves so I wouldn't focus on its role as a gun platform and instead change it into a support platform, something like the Scout Sentinel in IG

 

Coordinated Strike: Once per shooting phase choose one enemy unit that was shot by this Servo turret, that unit cannot benefit from cover this phase when shot by other SM units in your army

Repositioning: Once per game this unit can make a 10" movement, it cannot advance

 

Something like that,  so now its guns are not its whole reason to exist and you can make it useful throughout the game instead of it becoming irrelevant when its stuck in a position where there aren't any units in LoS.

That's why I'd focus on it being a gun platform with some niche support rules.  Make it a very good shooter, give it the Techmarine melee and repair rules, and keep it slow.  It should have some downside to make it require thought. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Well the Deep Strike 6" is already a niche held by Inceptors, but it's at least a start. 

 

I'm less concerned with their mobility (using them in Gladius or Firestorm) but Deep Strike should be something they should have in general. 

I’d change their rule, because I think that’s pretty bad for them tbh.

 

fall back and shoot would be much better.

[HeadlessCross]

48 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I’d change their rule, because I think that’s pretty bad for them tbh.

 

fall back and shoot would be much better.

That's a good rule assuming they live a round of melee. I haven't seen that yet, but hey still better than a small bonus to Overwatch!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

That's a good rule assuming they live a round of melee. I haven't seen that yet, but hey still better than a small bonus to Overwatch!

My gravis units almost never die after 1 round of melee.

[Lord_Ikka]

I use a single Firestrike almost every time I run my SM. It's a cheap way to get a couple of anti-tank shots off and the dork normally just stays in the backfield. Is it as useful as a Ballistus- nope, but I don't think it has to be. For me I would rather it have a different ability, as I never use it for Overwatch, but I'm kinda happy with it being as decent as it is for the price point.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

That's a good rule assuming they live a round of melee. I haven't seen that yet, but hey still better than a small bonus to Overwatch!

Its a good rule, but not for them - slow and plodding is still slow and plodding.

 

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

That's a good rule assuming they live a round of melee. I haven't seen that yet, but hey still better than a small bonus to Overwatch!

Its (half of) Tactical Doctrine.

[Orange Knight]

People are saying the firepower of this unit is low, and I disagree with this assessment to an extent.

 

It's a unit that has to be taken in multiples, otherwise it doesn't work. It's not what people want to hear, but it's the reality. It costs the same as two Terminators (the worst infantry unit in the codex) and you're getting decent durability and firepower for that cost. 2 Servo Turrets have more reliable firepower than a Ballistus Dread which is one of the most competitive ranged unit in the codex. Of course there are other trade offs such as lack of mobility and less toughness. 

 

One is none. Two is some. 3 is and then some.

 

The thing I agree most with is that their Special rule is too situational and unhelpful. This is probably something that will change in the next codex, fingers crossed.