So about Chaos and the Chaos Gods...

[Redboot Giddyman]

OK, so some context:

 

I came upon a Quora question about the Chaos Gods and what "nice" aspects they got. This intrigued me because, as I have long understood it, the Chaos Gods are supposed to have dominion over some positive things as well as negative (such as Tzeentch having dominion over hope and knowledge as well as treachery, deceit, and madness). But one of the most detailed and persuasive answers went some lengths to debunking this idea, emphasizing that the Chaos Gods and their followers are never shown having or displaying these aspects and are only ever shown to be utterly awful. He does note that Guy Haley brings up the idea of positive aspects of the Chaos Gods in the afterword of the book "The Lost and the Damned", but 1) believes the story itself wholly contradicts this idea, and 2) I have scanned over the afterword of the novel repeatedly and have found no such mention of the positive aspects of the Ruinous Powers. Was I just missing something? Was it something Guy Haley said elsewhere? If someone could find the actual statement (if it exists), I would appreciate it.

 

Either way, it may just be because I'm mostly a Chaos guy where my interest in 40K is concerned, but I for one find the notion that these "Chaotic Evil personified" beings could have dominion over some positive ideas and actions and not just all negative a lot more interesting than the alternative. More to the point, I think actually lending credence to this idea would help to push back against the "Imperium is necessary!" / "The Imperium are the good guys!" narratives that I really do despise by showing that, while Chaos may be awful overall, so is the Imperium and in the end, both are capable of having likable/sympathetic characters who have positive traits even if they're still overall villainous by most standards. Indeed, my two main OC Chaos Warbands are built on this idea: that of Chaos followers who identify more with the "positive" aspects of the Chaos Gods and being, if not exactly "good", as close to it as any follower of Chaos gets and ultimately not any worse than the members of the fanatical and tyrannical Imperium. While absolute, 100% deference to 40K canon is not really a priority of mine, it would still be rather dispiriting to know that my idea has no real basis in the established canon (then again, retcons being what they are...)

 

But, I figured I'd share the Quora answer here and see what people think. And again, if anyone can find the supposed statement by Guy Haley talking about the "positive" aspects of the Chaos Gods (or any other Word of God statement suggesting similar), I would be very appreciative. 

Edited yesterday at 03:47 AM by Redboot Giddyman

[kabaakaba]

It's a bit complicated, my friend.  Mine point isn't what Gods gives us. But how sentient races use it. 

Slaanesh don't make you hedonist, they only show you the way to love and pleasure. The fact you can't stop don't make them evil.

Wise Tzeentch gives you the Key to all knowledge. It's not his fault your soft brains can't handle all knowledge you greedy consume.

Brave Khorn only appreciate the fearless and strong. Is it he turns warriors into berserkers or their? With so less self restraining?

And merciful Nurgle, our grandfather, who cease our suffering and pain? Gives us life without sorrow. 

 

 

 

And doesn't it's like with any religion? If you get something great, like love, knowledge, achievement you think it's you who make it. But if there is something bad or ugly it's gods who do it with you. 

 

Edited yesterday at 05:13 AM by kabaakaba

[Redboot Giddyman]

18 minutes ago, kabaakaba said:

It's a bit complicated, my friend.  Mine point isn't what Gods gives us. But how sentient races use it. 

Slaanesh don't make you hedonist, they only show you the way to love and pleasure. The fact you can't stop don't make them evil.

Wise Tzeentch gives you the Key to all knowledge. It's not his fault your soft brains can't handle all knowledge you greedy consume.

Brave Khorn only appreciate the fearless and strong. Is it he turns warriors into berserkers or their? With so less self restraining?

And merciful Nurgle, our grandfather, who cease our suffering and pain? Gives us life without sorrow. 

 

 

 

And doesn't it's like with any religion? If you get something great, like love, knowledge, achievement you think it's you who make it. But if there is something bad or ugly it's gods who do it with you. 

 

Permission to use this post as dialogue for some of my Chaos characters? Because I could totally see them saying things like this XD

Edited yesterday at 05:29 AM by Redboot Giddyman

[kabaakaba]

I'm true servant of The God-Emperor, idk who said that terrible things. You obviously can use it

[Redboot Giddyman]

48 minutes ago, kabaakaba said:

I'm true servant of The God-Emperor, idk who said that terrible things. You obviously can use it

[Karhedron]

I remember some discussion by the authors but I think it was a commentary rather than in-universe. Basically the Chaos Gods are concepts that have become sentient. Ideas have a sort of gravity in the Warp and like attracts like meaning that big ideas and universal concepts can achieve critical mass and become sentient. But their nature is fundamentally to be hungry and want more, they want to generate ever more of the ideas that feed them and give them substance.

 

So thoughts of "brothers in arms" and dutiful defenders do indeed belong to Khorne but such ideas are less strong than the concept of a raging berserker because they leave room for other thoughts. The berserker thinks of nothing but bloodshed. More importantly, a raging berserker also has an effect on the enemy of provoking them to respond in kind. A berserker who slaughters the brothers in arms and the dutiful defenders will provoke any survivors to become more brutal themselves in order to fight fire with fire.

 

That is why Chaos is so corrosive. There may be positive aspects to the concepts each god embodies but the worst excesses always come to predominate because they are the ones that become self-fulfilling prophecies. An epicure who samples pleasures in moderation does feed Slaanesh but not nearly as much as a debauched hedonist who is constantly chasing an ever greater high. That is why the gods drive their followers to ever more extreme behaviour because that always provides more of the sustenance that the gods need. They are incapable of moderating themselves because that is fundamentally anathema to their existence. And so the positive aspects that may be part of their existence are subsumed by the pursuit of ever more extreme and destructive behaviour.

[apologist]

Rather than a Good–Evil axis – in which you start neutral and through actions become more or less good/evil, you might think of an Order/Chaos axis: on the one hand, pure, perfect Law – unchanging, closed, restricted – on the other, pure, perfect Chaos – ever-mutable.

 

I think this is a better way of understanding life in the Imperium versus in the Eye of Terror/Chaos wastes: the former a boot stamping on a human face forever, as Orwell put it, where free thought and emotion are restricted, fettered and numbed; the latter such utter freedom that sanity and form themselves are lost.

 

Within that, you've got the course of human life in the 41st Millennium – walking a tightrope between these two equally appalling conditions. It makes the attraction of Chaos (and the horror of the Imperium) make a bit more sense, I think.

 

+++

 

+ First steps +

As @Karhedron puts it nicely – Chaos is inherently corrosive. Johannus Civitas, typical cog in the Imperial Machine, perhaps finds some enjoyment in some harmless hobby in the privacy of his hab-cell: playing music, smoking lho-sticks, watching a sports team. In itself these acts are not 'good' or 'evil', but it sets the seed for competitiveness; for passion; for secrecy – all of which can be taken to extremes.

 

It's thus that the 'good' aspects of the Chaos gods make sense. If your loved one is terminally ill, you pray for stasis – that the illness will stop in its tracks. It's this hope that is the thin end of the wedge in Nurgle's domain. A warrior enjoys the bond of brotherhood and inter-reliance of his comrades: that's the first step on the road to Khorne worship. Does Johannus Civitias seek promotion or improvement in his life? These are the first thread towards Tzeentch or Slaanesh.

 

What these acts have in common is that they're not 'evil', but they are an expression of free will, rather than total submission to 'Law/Order'.

 

+++

+ Eldritch intelligence +

The other aspect that informs this discussion is that the warp is weird. The Powers of Chaos are one of those things that GW really got right early on, in how alien they are. Here's Realm of Chaos (RoC) on the nature of the Powers:

 

Quote

Warpspace is a random, unstructured dimension of energy and unfocused consciousness. It is Chaos, unfettered by the limits of matter and undirected by intelligent purpose. Warpspace is Chaos; Chaos is the stuff of warpspace. The two are indivisible.

The raw warpstuff of Chaos [...] is aware only in the crudest of ways, growing and evolving only through chance and random action. Within warpspace, the fabric of Chaos ebbs and flows, forming eddies and vortices of pressure and potential energy, concentrating power in relatively 'small' locales. These swirls and eddies, great warpstorms [...] are capable of unimaginable acts of creation and destruction. The storms are the Powers of Chaos [...] formed of the endlessly fluid fabric of their universe. As their concentration within the warp changes, the Chaos Powers ebb and flow. At times a little of a Chaos Power's substance dissipates into the warp, at others a Power increases its strength, drawing more of the warp into itself.

 Some warpstorms end quickly, having spent their fury in relentless turbulence that lasts moments or millennia. These are the lesser Powers of Chaos, eternal and everchanging. They coalesce from the warp for a brief time, and are capable of existence for only a flicker of time. They waste their substance upon the warp, and dissolve once more into formless Chaos. While they hold together, the Powers achieve intelligence, personality and purpose. They can perceive the warp and their companion warpstorms. They can also see dimly beyond the warp into the real universe. Many never reach beyond this perceptive state, adrift in the flow of the warp. They run the course of all warpstorms, and then dissolve once more. 

Other warpstorm Powers, the more formidable of their kind, however, achieve coherence of a different order, and they are able to manipulate the warp around themselves, holding the fabric of the warp In a pattern of their own choosing. Such Chaos Powers still wax and wane with the flow of the warp, but their core of intelligence and personality remains, protected by its own power. The great Powers of Chaos – Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch – are beings of this magnitude. 

 

 

While the Great Powers can be interpreted as personalities – gods like Zeus, Mars, Teutates etc. – that's not really the truth. Being of the warp, they're inherently not-understandable. They are at once involved with and unaware of the real world; just a sum of their smaller parts – and its these smaller parts; the individual daemons of a patron that then offer a good microcosm of this: each can have its own personality, which is at one and the same time part of the greater Power. Just as an eddy or gust is part of a storm: distinguishable, but not really separate in any meaningful way.

 

+++

+ Watercolour painting and the path to destruction +

Let's look at Johannus Civitas again. Perhaps he's taken up watercolour painting (per Christopher Bowers' reddit post), and takes pride and pleasure in it. In some small way, his emotions ripple in the warp and feed Slaanesh – but it's not a reciprocal arrangement. If he enters a contest, his competitiveness feeds Khorne; his drive to win feeds Tzeentch, and so forth.

 

Should his passion and desire for perfection escalate, his emotions will make larger ripples in the warp – to the point where, eventually, they impact and contribute to the larger storm that is Slaanesh. Civitas' passion is just a metaphorical ripple; but it's also particularly 'attuned' to the storm.

 

The act of painting, or entering a contest, aren't good or evil – but driven to extremes, all acts become egregious. The passion curdles into obsession; the competitiveness into agression; his ambition into underhanded cheating. These, I think, can be called evil – and they'll certainly feed the storm/make bigger waves (whichever metaphor you prefer).

 

Eventually, Johannus might find himself attracting the eye of the gods, who will take an active role in corrupting and driving him further along, granting gifts to further agitate and escalate the underlying emotions....

 

But this is another metaphor. It would be just as accurate to say that Johannus' emotions have become so attuned to the warpstorm that his soul is affected by the ripples from the storm – which, again, is really just made up of trillions of other beings just like him.

 

To put it another way, Johannus actions in the real world agitate his 'space' in the immaterium, and move it towards other, similar movements, until he is part of a larger movement; a particle in a greater storm. But is it his movement (his actions in the real world) that's taking him – or is he simultaneously attracting the storm? What's the difference?

+++

 

+ Who falls to Chaos? Who submits to Order? +

Either way, I agree with Christopher Bowers' point that the Powers always bring entropy and ruin. In 40k (and the Warhammer universes more generally), Chaos is only vanishingly rarely something anyone comes back from. And that's because 'falling to Chaos' is not really a case of will and intention (i.e. doing evil things to be rewarded by an evil deity), but rather the ability to express what's already there – to do what you would otherwise do, if you simply had the power.

 

'Good' people can fall to Chaos, doing 'good' deeds all the way – that's exactly how Inquisitors go rogue. Likewise you can do all the 'evil' things you like in 40k, and still remain unaffected by Chaos if your emotions are closely guarded and monitored – or you simply don't have a particularly rich inner world.

 

In the Imperium, the authorities aim to keep most people as close as possible to perfect 'Order/Law' through highly restrictive laws, because all other paths inevitably lead to Chaos: a mono-polar setting. It's very human to chafe at such  extreme limitations, hence why the Imperium is such a horrible place – the 'cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable' as Rogue Trader puts it. The best a human can do in such a world is to try to find an equilibrium between being able to exercise their will while applying their own restraints.

 

Inquisitors, by the by, are a good rare example of Imperial figures who are empowered and enabled to exercise free will. Space Marines in general, and Grey Knights in particular, are examples of 'agents of Order' whose free will and emotional range is intentionally stunted; and thus why they are more resistant to Chaos: because they show little of what we'd call humanity.
 

This way of looking at the Chaos/Imperium is one that offers a bit more meat for understanding why the Imperium is just as terrible as the forces of Chaos arrayed against it; and that if there are any heroes in 40k, it's the people who live in the cracks; as threatened by the totalitarian oppression of Law as the horrifying freedom of Chaos.

Edited 13 hours ago by apologist

[Dr_Ruminahui]

+ 1 to everything @apologist says, except for my thougths on falling to chaos (that said, I'm not certain how much this is difference of opinion versus a difference in definitions).  To begin, I must note that I don't have any particular sources for his (I'm not like @LSM, who always seems to have such at his fingertips) and this is just based on my own general understanding and interpretation of 40K lore and background.

 

The potential difference on opinion is regarding falling to chaos.  To me, there is a difference between feeding chaos and falling to chaos.

 

I see it as possible to feed chaos even if being entirely unwilling to do so - just by doing the "right" acts (no matter the cause) and feeling the "right" emotions (no matter the source), one feeds the associated chaos god.  And by "feeding" I simply mean that there are emotions released into the warp that can be collected by warp entities and become a source of power for them.  To me, the feelings of both sides of an action are relevant - so, the feelings of the slaughterer and the slaughtered both feed Khorne, the feelings of the painter and the viewer of the painting feed Slannesh, and those of both the teller and the recipient of a secret feed Tzeentch (this duality is harder to make out for Nurgle, but probably still exists in certain circumstances).  So, an inquisitor in slaughtering chaos cultists may well be feeding Khorne, even if the inquisitor is seeking to do exactly the opposite - being emotionally restrained only goes so far, as the feelings of the recipient also feed the warp.  In my mind, such an inquisitor could continue inadvertently feeding the chaos gods their entire career, but doesn't mean he/she has fallen - such requires something more.

 

And I note that the argument could be made that the act itself also feeds chaos - I'm doubtful of that argument, given that the driver of chaos is emotion, and the act itself is not an emotion.  That said, given my belief that the emotions of both sides (causer and recipient) of the act feed chaos, I may be splitting hairs.

 

As I mentioned above, to fall to chaos requires something more.  Typically, this is in the form of "worship" - I put that term in brackets as I don't think its restricted to reverence in the religious sense.  Rather, in this context I would define it as actively seeking (or attempting to seek) the benefits of association with chaos, and/or having the god related actions become a good and goal of their own, irrespective of the desirability of those actions (this is the self-destructive aspect of chaos).  It seems apparent in the lore that worship seems desirable to the chaos gods, over and above the mere performance of feeding acts and the generated emotions - while it could be argued that the worship is desired because it promotes the desired acts/emotions, in my opinion it goes further than that.  Rather, my own theory is that worship is a way of ensuring that the desired emotions make their way to the associated god rather than just being projected randomly into the warp.  In other words, its kind of like attaching a warp "postal code", it aggregates the emotions in such a way as to make them easier to collect and/or it filters the emotions to make sure that emotional events that could feed multiple gods (say, an executed prisoner feeling dispair could have all their emotions "packaged" for either Nurgle or Khorne, rather than being divided between the two).

 

So, I don't think one can "fall" to Chaos by doing good deeds all the way - at least not in the sense I would use the term fall (I recognize that a Puritan inquisitor's definition would be very different) - one has to go bad somewhere in the chain of actions to "fall", with that "bad" being either seeking benefit from the ruinous powers, or by the ends and the means become the same (ie you slaughter because its slaughter, you keep secrets because they are secret, you seek perfection because it is perfect rather than because those means and ends have some inherent benefit).  Note, I think this is a continuum, especially on the "seeking advantage/boons" side of things.  For example, Eisenhorn in the novels creates a demon host - in doing so, he is definitely using the ruinous powers to his advantage.  Does this mean he's fallen?  Maybe not, but its definitely a step in that direction.

Edited 9 hours ago by Dr_Ruminahui

[kabaakaba]

I'll start writing essay about Grandpa and stoped cause you guys affect me in wrong way. Short version. Every aspect of life, fear of death, any illness all feeding him. Cause everything in our lives is a way to him

Edited 8 hours ago by kabaakaba

[Redboot Giddyman]

7 hours ago, apologist said:

Rather than a Good–Evil axis – in which you start neutral and through actions become more or less good/evil, you might think of an Order/Chaos axis: on the one hand, pure, perfect Law – unchanging, closed, restricted – on the other, pure, perfect Chaos – ever-mutable.

 

I think this is a better way of understanding life in the Imperium versus in the Eye of Terror/Chaos wastes: the former a boot stamping on a human face forever, as Orwell put it, where free thought and emotion are restricted, fettered and numbed; the latter such utter freedom that sanity and form themselves are lost.

 

Within that, you've got the course of human life in the 41st Millennium – walking a tightrope between these two equally appalling conditions. It makes the attraction of Chaos (and the horror of the Imperium) make a bit more sense, I think.

Oh yeah, I definitely get that 40K is Lawful Evil Vs. Chaotic Evil, not Good Vs. Evil. It's just that the general idea is that "the Imperium is evil, but Chaos is worse!!!", whereas if more of an emphasis was put on positive aspects of the Chaos Gods and their being Chaos followers who had built even semi-stable societies for themselves, it would eliminate or at least reduce the moral disparity (such as it is), and highlight that, in fact, the Imperium is neither necessary nor the best of a set of bad options, but that in the end both Chaos and Imperium are capable of having likable and semi-heroic characters despite both factions being clearly evil as a whole. 

[LameBeard]

I can add little to what @apologist said but I have a quick thought on this and the original post.

 

First, the very old lore does have some admirable qualities present in chaos-e.g the “martial honour” in Khorne. Not everyone is a berserker, although they may be vulnerable to “falling”. In the middlehammer lore, chaos gods in the old world are sometimes just part of the pantheon (Shornal of the Norse, for example).

 

41 minutes ago, Redboot Giddyman said:

 "the Imperium is evil, but Chaos is worse!!!", …, in fact, the Imperium is neither necessary nor the best of a set of bad options, …

I think the way to think about this is that the centre of Warhammer is a very dark bleak joke about the human condition. Humanity is spread through the stars and is emerging as a psychic race: the warp is bent increasingly by humanity and humanity bent by the warp: mutation, daemon incursion, death and torment are the inevitable outcome, and the Imperium’s vision is that mankind can only survive by the constant killing and suppression (and feeding to the astronomican) of psykers, and mutants and heretics and anyone committing “thoughtcrime” because of how thin that wedge can be to let chaos in, utter totalitarianism, utterly uncompromising, completely without compassion - and you know what? They just might be right.

 

if you want a more poetic way to think about it, it would be more like Tolkien. The Emperor had a vision to guide humanity through its birthpangs to emerge as a psychic race safe from the worst ravages of chaos, something beyond but perhaps akin to the Eldar of the path, that there was a time where the bloodshed had a purpose.  And that hope has been lost, and a vain struggle for mere existence continues. Warhammer as tragedy not satire. Just as the Age under the Sun in Tolkien is a world of constant mourning for the light of the Trees.

 

I prefer the first version because  I like the stories where we doubt the Emperor - was he ever the good guy? Was he ever right? About anything? But they are not completely incompatible versions, more just different emphases.