New Warhammer 40,000 Edition announced!

[Moonstalker]

1 hour ago, Tastyfish said:

 

I've seen this a few times, and I think it's a misinterpretation of the rules. You have to be able to exceed the distance of the base to base measurement on your charge roll in order to be able to make a valid charge.

 

However;

 

When making a charge move, you only need to get within 2" (unless you can get to within 1", in which case you must do that).

 

Hypothetically, if you had two squads with one standing 1.5" behind the front of the first unit - 8" away from the enemy. They need to roll a 10 to get into base to base with the first unit (and engage both units) or an 8 to charge the first unit - however they would only be allowed to move 7.5" towards them, staying 2" away from the unit behind, but still in engagement range of the unit in front.

 

Though they would then pile into engagement range with the unit they missed, so I guess this doesn't make any difference in most cases.

 

 

 

Assuming I'm reading this right?

 

That is how I read it, but I have had some of my local group arguing that that reverse-screen is possible.

[Lathe Biosas]

Looks like I found a good time to build a Custodes army.

 

Just one question, they mention base to base, what about baseless units, like Land Raiders. Is it hull to base?

[Tawnis]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Yeah seems like shooting armies are getting screwed over hard. 
significantly easier to hide, significantly harder to fail charges.

 

i really hope the overwatch Strat gets a big boost.

Based on they way armies currently play, perhaps. However, I feel like everyone is really sleeping on the new way plunging fire works. Not only ignoring cover, (the +1BS, canceling out the -1BS), but making attacks against units out in the open FAR more effective. Ranged units may not be able to reach across the board and delete things turn 1 anymore, but sit them up high in a building, and they'll be far more effective at hosing down anything they can see. It taking effect at 3" rather than >5" will mean it comes into play constantly and will need to be factored into any ranged army's game plan. 

This will be a particular buff to armies with high volume low accuracy shooting. Based on what I've seen so far, I would not be surprised to see mass shooty Orks get a lot of play in early 11th. (10 Loota's with Deffguns, hitting on 4's with re-roll 1's or 5's with full re-rolls, with cover no longer peeling off their -1AP. All the while being -1 to be hit themselves for only 100pts seems pretty spooky.) 

I could see a lot of hybrid infantry lists working well here too. Melee clears out a building then ranged jumps into elevation and hoses down anything problematic in between their new cover and wherever melee wants to go next. If you position well, I could see Tau Breachers being an absolute menace. If your within their 10" range, they hop up into cover, get re-roll hits and would of 1 while ignoring cover from something like a Stealthsuit and then you're just mowing down anything on ground level with 30 (assuming you have a cadre fireblade) Ballistic Skill 2+ re-roll 1, S6 re-roll 1, Ap-1 attacks.  

Edited April 15 by Tawnis

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Tastyfish said:

 

I've seen this a few times, and I think it's a misinterpretation of the rules. You have to be able to exceed the distance of the base to base measurement on your charge roll in order to be able to make a valid charge.

 

However;

 

When making a charge move, you only need to get within 2" (unless you can get to within 1", in which case you must do that).

 

Hypothetically, if you had two squads with one standing 1.5" behind the front of the first unit - 8" away from the enemy. They need to roll a 10 to get into base to base with the first unit (and engage both units) or an 8 to charge the first unit - however they would only be allowed to move 7.5" towards them, staying 2" away from the unit behind, but still in engagement range of the unit in front.

 

Though they would then pile into engagement range with the unit they missed, so I guess this doesn't make any difference in most cases.

 

 

 

Assuming I'm reading this right?

11 minutes ago, Moonstalker said:

 

That is how I read it, but I have had some of my local group arguing that that reverse-screen is possible.

 

I kind of agree; I think it comes down to what an 11th ed Pile In move is. Here's how I'm seeing the description you've provided and the interactions going on

 

Unit A - The player's unit whose charge phase it is.

Unit B - The opponent's unit which is 8" away from Unit A; i.e. within 8" of Unit A.

Unit C - The opponent's unit which is 1.5" behind Unit B, and 9.5" away from Unit A, i.e. within 10" of Unit A.

1. Unit A rolls it's Charge Roll and establishes Maximum Distance (Charge Roll = Maximum Distance); the result is 8" or 9", enough so only Unit B is within Maximum Distance.
2. Unit B is the only eligible Charge Target for Unit A; and is chosen as a Charge Target for Unit A.
3. Models in Unit A are moved closer to the Charge Target.
   1. Models in Unit A cannot move within 2" of Unit C so models in Unit A cannot be brought into base contact with models in Unit B.
4. As many models as possible in Unit A end their movement Engaged (within 2") with Unit B, while being outside of 2" of models in Unit C.
5. Pile In move - we know units "get into engagement range of units that weren’t the target of your charge while Piling In." We don't know the details; there could be limitations. I suspect there will be some sort of limitation because Charge-While Moving is explicit that models must be within 1" if possible and within 2" if not, only then can an Engaged unit have Unengaged models. I highly suspect Pile In will have a similar prioritization; something like Engaged models can move to be within 1", Unengaged models can move with be within 1" or 2" if they can't, and only Unengaged models that can't get within 2" can Pile In to a non-Charge Target unit. Or not... like I said, we don't know the details.

[jaxom]

28 minutes ago, Lathe Biosas said:

Looks like I found a good time to build a Custodes army.

 

Just one question, they mention base to base, what about baseless units, like Land Raiders. Is it hull to base?

I think Base-to-Base will end up including "within 1" if the model does not have a base." It would match the Charge-While Moving priority of ending within 1" of one or more Charge Targets.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

22 minutes ago, Tawnis said:

Based on they way armies currently play, perhaps. However, I feel like everyone is really sleeping on the new way plunging fire works. Not only ignoring cover, (the +1BS, canceling out the -1BS), but making attacks against units out in the open FAR more effective. Ranged units may not be able to reach across the board and delete things turn 1 anymore, but sit them up high in a building, and they'll be far more effective at hosing down anything they can see. It taking effect at 3" rather than >5" will mean it comes into play constantly and will need to be factored into any ranged army's game plan. 

This will be a particular buff to armies with high volume low accuracy shooting. Based on what I've seen so far, I would not be surprised to see mass shooty Orks get a lot of play in early 11th. (10 Loota's with Deffguns, hitting on 4's with re-roll 1's or 5's with full re-rolls, with cover no longer peeling off their -1AP. All the while being -1 to be hit themselves for only 100pts seems pretty spooky.) 

I could see a lot of hybrid infantry lists working well here too. Melee clears out a building then ranged jumps into elevation and hoses down anything problematic in between their new cover and wherever melee wants to go next. If you position well, I could see Tau Breachers being an absolute menace. If your within their 10" range, they hop up into cover, get re-roll hits and would of 1 while ignoring cover from something like a Stealthsuit and then you're just mowing down anything on ground level with 30 (assuming you have a cadre fireblade) Ballistic Skill 2+ re-roll 1, S6 re-roll 1, Ap-1 attacks.  

Terrain tall enough to convey plunging fire benefits is fairly uncommon, and there’s often very limited space for placing models at that height of terrain, that benefit will be extremely limited.

[Tastyfish]

32 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Terrain tall enough to convey plunging fire benefits is fairly uncommon, and there’s often very limited space for placing models at that height of terrain, that benefit will be extremely limited.

3" isn't that uncommon, it's any Sector Mechanicus terrain, Volkus ruins, a Sector Fronteris hab on the landing pad, two containers on top of each other.

With the official maps it looks like there might be 8 pieces of high ground per map - either roughly 4"x4" or 4"x2"

 

Edited April 15 by Tastyfish

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Tastyfish said:

3" isn't that uncommon, it's any Sector Mechanicus terrain, Volkus ruins, a Sector Fronteris hab on the landing pad, two containers on top of each other.

With the official maps it looks like there might be 8 pieces of high ground per map - either roughly 4"x4" or 4"x2"

 

And how large are the floors/platforms to typically hold models? 

[Tawnis]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Terrain tall enough to convey plunging fire benefits is fairly uncommon, and there’s often very limited space for placing models at that height of terrain, that benefit will be extremely limited.

It is at the current >5" rule. It's changing to be 3" which is a very easy ask from any decent sized piece of terrain. 

[Silvereyes]

7 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

The real nice thing is that it looks like GW is taking rules writing a little more seriously. Those rules shown have appendix numbers and organizational tags within the rules themselves. My history degree appreciates a good reference schema. 

 

Age of Sigmar 4th edition has appendix numbers for everything as well. Another thing that it looks like they may be taking is AoS's "core abilities". A "core ability" being stuff like being able to charge, advance, move, etc, stuff that nearly every unit can do. Making them technically abilities to try and better explain the mechanics. 

[Tastyfish]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And how large are the floors/platforms to typically hold models? 

Sorry, those measurements were for the raised platforms to hold models.

The ruins they are part of are about an inch or two wider in both directions (with a square floorplan under them).

Edited April 16 by Tastyfish

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

Sorry, those measurements were for the raised platforms to hold models.

The ruins they are part of are about an inch or two wider in both directions (with a square floorplan under them).

So roughly 4-8 models if you’re lucky.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

4 hours ago, jaxom said:

 

I kind of agree; I think it comes down to what an 11th ed Pile In move is. Here's how I'm seeing the description you've provided and the interactions going on

 

Unit A - The player's unit whose charge phase it is.

Unit B - The opponent's unit which is 8" away from Unit A; i.e. within 8" of Unit A.

Unit C - The opponent's unit which is 1.5" behind Unit B, and 9.5" away from Unit A, i.e. within 10" of Unit A.

1. Unit A rolls it's Charge Roll and establishes Maximum Distance (Charge Roll = Maximum Distance); the result is 8" or 9", enough so only Unit B is within Maximum Distance.
2. Unit B is the only eligible Charge Target for Unit A; and is chosen as a Charge Target for Unit A.
3. Models in Unit A are moved closer to the Charge Target.
   1. Models in Unit A cannot move within 2" of Unit C so models in Unit A cannot be brought into base contact with models in Unit B.
4. As many models as possible in Unit A end their movement Engaged (within 2") with Unit B, while being outside of 2" of models in Unit C.
5. Pile In move - we know units "get into engagement range of units that weren’t the target of your charge while Piling In." We don't know the details; there could be limitations. I suspect there will be some sort of limitation because Charge-While Moving is explicit that models must be within 1" if possible and within 2" if not, only then can an Engaged unit have Unengaged models. I highly suspect Pile In will have a similar prioritization; something like Engaged models can move to be within 1", Unengaged models can move with be within 1" or 2" if they can't, and only Unengaged models that can't get within 2" can Pile In to a non-Charge Target unit. Or not... like I said, we don't know the details.

Thank you for writing that out. Helped me visualize  the concept. I think blocking charges like that wouldn’t work. You don’t have to get within 1”, you just have to if you can. Unit C could block 2” from itself but not enough to block 2” from unit B. If it did work as you described it would be a risky move to block for one specific roll to bring yourself that much closer to the charge.
 

This concept  could make the charge position weird for unit A models but they will pile in and so would unit B. Then unit C would be ripe for a consolidate move.

 

Side note: world eaters are going to eat this edition. 

[Tastyfish]

37 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So roughly 4-8 models if you’re lucky.

 

That's most of or half a squad in most cases. Across 3-4 terrain pieces, depending on the army turn one to two.

It's a rule that'll come up a fair bit in most games as the special weapons head up top, or units like eliminators play cat and mouse with other infiltrators looking to deny them the vantage point.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

26 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

 

That's most of or half a squad in most cases. Across 3-4 terrain pieces, depending on the army turn one to two.

It's a rule that'll come up a fair bit in most games as the special weapons head up top, or units like eliminators play cat and mouse with other infiltrators looking to deny them the vantage point.

 

So in guard you get 2 special weapons and 2 lasguns that benefit…because yeah that’ll do a whole lot to the unit of berserkers or 8bound or death company that just popped out from behind terrain 12” inches away or less… be lucky to kill 2/5 and they’ll still likely chew through my whole squad once they charge 

[Antarius]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So roughly 4-8 models if you’re lucky.

A 4"x4" platform should hold 16 25mm bases. So a squad of Havocs, just for one example of a unit with larger bases that you would actually want to place on such a platform, should also fit quite neatly.

[Rhavien]

Of course you need proper terrain instead of a set of MDF corners with no windows and platforms. Long time collectors won't break a sweat and I guess third party vendors will adapt and present affordable solutions as well. 

Do we know anything about traversing terrain yet? It would be cool, if your models could reach those vantage points before turn 3 or with a jump pack  maybe a second life for suppressors? 

[Karhedron]

31 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

Do we know anything about traversing terrain yet? It would be cool, if your models could reach those vantage points before turn 3 or with a jump pack  maybe a second life for suppressors? 

 

There was a comment that vehicles can cross terrain below a certain size without hindrance. A tank can't move through a building but it can certainly crunch over a ruined wall or equivalent. I can see flamer tanks like Hellhounds and Land Raider Redeemers being strong as they crunch through terrain and burn troops out of cover. They are already good with the overwatch stratagem so they seem like the initial option for shooty armies looking to blunt enemy charges.

[Mogger351]

21 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

There was a comment that vehicles can cross terrain below a certain size without hindrance. A tank can't move through a building but it can certainly crunch over a ruined wall or equivalent. I can see flamer tanks like Hellhounds and Land Raider Redeemers being strong as they crunch through terrain and burn troops out of cover. They are already good with the overwatch stratagem so they seem like the initial option for shooty armies looking to blunt enemy charges.

Ir depending on the play envrionment, tanks can move over the yellow ones and not the green ones.

[brother_b]

Plunging fire feels like it was made for city scape battlefield, kind of like what we see on all board set ups currently. Ok maybe not all but vast majority?

 

Unless people have super tall trees or outcrop terrain…

[Tastyfish]

9 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So in guard you get 2 special weapons and 2 lasguns that benefit…because yeah that’ll do a whole lot to the unit of berserkers or 8bound or death company that just popped out from behind terrain 12” inches away or less… be lucky to kill 2/5 and they’ll still likely chew through my whole squad once they charge 

 

Or it could be the full plasma section from a Krieg platoon up there, or Scions/Aquilons dropping onto one of the mid-field vantage points

A single infantry squad was never going to do a huge amount of damage to a unit of berserkers or death company if they set up on an open field 24" away.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 hours ago, Antarius said:

A 4"x4" platform should hold 16 25mm bases. So a squad of Havocs, just for one example of a unit with larger bases that you would actually want to place on such a platform, should also fit quite neatly.

Assuming they can all be in base to base contact with each other, assuming the sq inchage is actually available rather than being 4x4” with a ruined floor that only actually extends an inch or two from the wall. As is common with the upper floors of ruins

 

3 hours ago, brother_b said:

Plunging fire feels like it was made for city scape battlefield, kind of like what we see on all board set ups currently. Ok maybe not all but vast majority?

 

Unless people have super tall trees or outcrop terrain…

I mean my two favorite homemade terrain pieces are rocky outcropping things. 
haven’t measured them for height but one is likely pretty close to 3” tall

[DemonGSides]

15 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

 

Or it could be the full plasma section from a Krieg platoon up there, or Scions/Aquilons dropping onto one of the mid-field vantage points

A single infantry squad was never going to do a huge amount of damage to a unit of berserkers or death company if they set up on an open field 24" away.

 

Yeah it's a silly complaint on Lensovens behalf. He can stick any actual ranged damage infantry on the scaffolding and it's going be miles more effective than the fodder he's saying aren't gonna benefit; they're not there to do tons of damage anyways.

 

The scion brick dedicating just it's special weapons to a second floor is a spicy meatball. Kasrkin too. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

25 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

 

Or it could be the full plasma section from a Krieg platoon up there, or Scions/Aquilons dropping onto one of the mid-field vantage points

A single infantry squad was never going to do a huge amount of damage to a unit of berserkers or death company if they set up on an open field 24" away.

Still not likely to do much. 
 

sure set them up 24” away, there will almost guaranteed be terrain between your unit and their unit, and since they only have pistols their units likely haven’t shot yet, and thus cannot be shot at.

 

the tables I play on are fairly open compared to what I’ve seen at tournament bartreps and various other online batreps and even my tables have terrain every 18-20” from each other.

 

8 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Yeah it's a silly complaint on Lensovens behalf. He can stick any actual ranged damage infantry on the scaffolding and it's going be miles more effective than the fodder he's saying aren't gonna benefit; they're not there to do tons of damage anyways.

 

The scion brick dedicating just it's special weapons to a second floor is a spicy meatball. Kasrkin too. 

Not really. 2-3 special weapons hitting on a 3+ isn’t likely to do all that much to MEQs let alone TEQs.

[Moonstalker]

Various thoughts that've wandered in and out of my head over the last few days:
 

1. Suicide Melta edition?  With 8.1 inch range for deep strike/ingress, is everyone going to buy a box of 2 drop pods for a squad of eradicators and a castraferrum with multimelta?  That landspeeder in the trailer looked like it had a melta, too.

2. What's going to happen to flamers?  If the benefit of cover is now -1 BS to units that target you, and Ignores Cover and Torrent keep the same wording they have now, then Torrent is simply better Ignores Cover.  Why ignore the modifier to your ballistic skill when you're just going to auto-hit?  Will Flamers simply carry a superfluous second rule?

3. Artillery edition?  The Hidden rule says that a unit that has not fired in the current or previous player turn and is in terrain is not visibile except to units that are within 15 inches of it.  Indirect Fire allows weapons to be fired at targets that you do not have visibility to.  So while you can't shoot regular weapons at that squad sitting 16 inches away on an objective, I don't think a Whirlwind cares.