Help this beginner clarify some rules please…

[Rowland]

Guys,

my mate and I had our first battle today, Vardenghast swarm v Octavius combat patrols.  It generally went well.  Slow with all the back and forth with the many rules and we forgot to use half the buffs etc but it was enjoyable.

 I’m not clear on a couple of things mostly to do with units.

1. If a single figure is visible around a corner that whole unit is visible until they move and therefore take damage to all those figures (even the hidden ones).  Does it work the same way in the shooting phase?  I.e. if I have a single shooter with line of sight (my other units are behind the building) can all my units shoot that visible unit?

2. I had the Winged Tyranid prime to the right and the Psychophage to the left.  In the middle was a line of Terminators which had the Librarian attached to them.  It was my move and I had charged the Psych in.  The Prime was already in contact.  The Psych gets first fight because of the charge.  Then the Terminators then the Prime.  Who can focus on whom?  Does a character become separated from their unit in melee, can I target one or the other.  When they fight back can they equally split their focus?

Thanks in anticipation….I’m sure there will be more questions…

[Focslain]

1) IIRC, the answer is it doesn't work both ways. Yes the unit can be targeted and lose models not visible can be lost at least until the unit that started firing is done. But making the attacks the model still has to have line of sight. Personally when teaching I use nebulas ruin rules (can shoot and be shot if inside ruins, regardless of  how the ruin is built) for ease in first games, then add the true LOS rule in as they get more games under their belt.

 

2) Models can target a unit as long as they base to base with them in the case of single model units (Prime/Psychophage). In multi-model units (terminators) the model can target a unit as long as they are in base-to-base or in base-to-base with a model is b2b of their target unit. So the prime/psychophage can target the terminator unit (including the librarian, but without precision can target the librarian until the terminators are gone). The terminators can only target those that they are in b2b with or is b2b with a model they are with. 

 

Fun Fact: The psychophages anti-psyher ability works on the whole terminator unit if the librarian is leading them, not just the librarian himself. 

[Rowland]

32 minutes ago, Focslain said:

1) IIRC, the answer is it doesn't work both ways. Yes the unit can be targeted and lose models not visible can be lost at least until the unit that started firing is done. But making the attacks the model still has to have line of sight. Personally when teaching I use nebulas ruin rules (can shoot and be shot if inside ruins, regardless of  how the ruin is built) for ease in first games, then add the true LOS rule in as they get more games under their belt.

 

2) Models can target a unit as long as they base to base with them in the case of single model units (Prime/Psychophage). In multi-model units (terminators) the model can target a unit as long as they are in base-to-base or in base-to-base with a model is b2b of their target unit. So the prime/psychophage can target the terminator unit (including the librarian, but without precision can target the librarian until the terminators are gone). The terminators can only target those that they are in b2b with or is b2b with a model they are with. 

 

Fun Fact: The psychophages anti-psyher ability works on the whole terminator unit if the librarian is leading them, not just the librarian himself. 

Thanks Focslain,  1. Is very clear.  With 2. I assume without precision I CAN’T focus on the Librarian.   The rest of the Terminators are acting as bodyguards and absorb the blows (if chosen to do so, (I’m painting up some reivers and note their pistols have precision and can pinpoint a character within a unit for this purpose))

Am I right in thinking that the Terminators and Librarian, have one fight back and can individually (model by model) choose either opponent for that single attack as long as they are b2b?
 

ultimately I’m trying to get my head around when a unit is a unit and when they are individuals…but it’s becoming clearer.

[Kommisar_K]

1 hour ago, Rowland said:

Thanks Focslain,  1. Is very clear.  With 2. I assume without precision I CAN’T focus on the Librarian.   The rest of the Terminators are acting as bodyguards and absorb the blows (if chosen to do so, (I’m painting up some reivers and note their pistols have precision and can pinpoint a character within a unit for this purpose))

Am I right in thinking that the Terminators and Librarian, have one fight back and can individually (model by model) choose either opponent for that single attack as long as they are b2b?
 

ultimately I’m trying to get my head around when a unit is a unit and when they are individuals…but it’s becoming clearer.

Correct. The Librarian and Terminators attack at the same time. Each can attack any enemy unit they're in base-to-base contact with or are in base-to-base with a friendly model that is in b2b with that unit.

The Librarian, however, cannot be attacked unless 1)all the Terminators are dead, or 2) the attacking model uses a precision weapon.

Edited April 6 by Kommisar_K

[Rowland]

Guys, another game, some more questions….

1.Do other friendly units block line of sight from enemies (particularly against torrent weapons like flamers). In the attached image the marine flamers want to attack the Barbs behind the Termagants.

2. 2 Marines (a depleted unit) charge a unit of Termagents.  They get b2b with 2 Termagents.  The marines cause 4 damage.

Who gets to decide which models are removed?  In the return fight back  if the four T’s at the front of the line (nearest the marines) have been removed can there be a fight back, as there aren’t any T’s b2b?  Do the T’s get to pile in during the marines turn and without charging?  We removed the outer figures to avoid confusion but waited until the Tyranids go for the pile in.  So I think we just fought back with 2 Termagants.
3. The Tyranids get to pile in on their turn and all those b2b with marines and each other got to fight (2 rows deep).

Please see attached images.

It still takes us about an hour per turn with all the glossary looking up of critical, mortal, devastating, linked, trying to remember and understand tactics and how many rerolls etc…

 

 

 

[DemonGSides]

Quick answers;

 

1) Yes, your models have to visibly be able to see them.  But most infantry have small gaps you can see theough and even most vehicles do too, so effectively it's very hard to fully block sight between anything that doesn't have intervening terrain.  Your flamers would be fine to attack as long as they are within range (hard to tell exactly based on images).

 

2) The owner of the unit allocates the successful attacks to models in the receiving unit, prioritizing already damaged models and ignoring characters unless it's a precision weapon. So the Gaunt owner would remove units. 

 

If the Gaunt owner does not want a chance to fight back, since they were not the charging unit, they can remove models until they are out of engagement range if they'd like to.  However the Marine unit could then consolidate into them, as they get a 3" consolidation move which would keep the Gaunts in combat. 

 

Early games are gonna take a long time, that's just part of learning!  Consider making some cheat sheets or finding some online for the various weapon tags and things like that. 

 

[Galron]

The whole LOS and who gets shot thing remains one of the dumbest and immersion breaking rules in 40k even after 20+ years and multiple editions. It should work that only the visible guy gets hit and that would make the most sense by far but for some reason GW rules designers have never been able to pull their heads out of their 4th point of contact to fix the issue. Even worse that the opposite doesnt apply and while the opponent's bullets magically fly through walls to hit you, yours do not in turn do the same. 

 

I am not familiar with the librarian example units to know if theres some special rules interactions here. Provided there arent any, you said the libby was attached to the termnators when they charged, thus they all go before the bug unit goes. Unless one bug unit has first strike and then it goes and then the charging unit. Note that in less than a couple months this will change with the new edition so dont base any future purchases off this mechanic.

[Rowland]

Thanks DGS and Galron,

LOS does seem daft especially when there are rules for Monsters being shot in engagement and not infantry and yet they can be shot through any other time.

Having had another read of the rules I’m still slightly confused.  This time around I read it that the fight phase is a bit different to the other single player phases.   It says both units can pile in, I hadn’t appreciated that before. So even if you do have to remove pieces the remainder can move in to get as many b2b as the 3” allows.

I’m used to playing other games and “consolidate” isn’t like “taking ground” it’s more a regrouping (particularly if there are no more enemies).

I think I’ve managed to get my head around fights first now and the whole re roll THE roll stuff.

My mate and I are getting there slowly, thanks to your help.

Cheers,

Rowly

[DemonGSides]

10 minutes ago, Rowland said:

Thanks DGS and Galron,

LOS does seem daft especially when there are rules for Monsters being shot in engagement and not infantry and yet they can be shot through any other time.

Having had another read of the rules I’m still slightly confused.  This time around I read it that the fight phase is a bit different to the other single player phases.   It says both units can pile in, I hadn’t appreciated that before. So even if you do have to remove pieces the remainder can move in to get as many b2b as the 3” allows.

I’m used to playing other games and “consolidate” isn’t like “taking ground” it’s more a regrouping (particularly if there are no more enemies).

I think I’ve managed to get my head around fights first now and the whole re roll THE roll stuff.

My mate and I are getting there slowly, thanks to your help.

Cheers,

Rowly

 

Monsters in combat have the Big Guns Never Tire rule and it's actually super nice; in older editions you could neuter their biggest shooters just by getting close to them and that's brutal for a lot of armies, especially monster mash tyranid type lists.

 

I do agree vision has never been GW's strong suit. I don't quite agree on the axis of complaint above (I think the "if you can see one guy you can target the whole squad" is a good thing, actually, as it keeps the game progressing, and teaches good positioning); the bigger issue is true LOS and the absolute insanity that some bigger models have (I like the idea of only caring about bases/hulls like in the new StarCraft miniatures game, but I haven't played it yet to know if its actually good) and then the way it intersects with terrain rules.

 

Consolidating can be both; I would look into the rules a bit more. And also remember Combat Patrol is slightly different in somethings. 

[Rowland]

Am I right in thinking that big guns never tire goes both ways though and they can be shot at even whilst in melee?

I also forgot that my Psychophage “Wendy” can shoot whilst in melee and I take it that can be against the unit I’m melee-ing?

[DemonGSides]

52 minutes ago, Rowland said:

Am I right in thinking that big guns never tire goes both ways though and they can be shot at even whilst in melee?

I also forgot that my Psychophage “Wendy” can shoot whilst in melee and I take it that can be against the unit I’m melee-ing?

 

Yes it does work both ways; the Monster just cant use any Blast weapons against things they are in melee against, and they're also going to take a -1 to their BS while in engagement range. 

 

Monsters and vehicles can also use both regular guns and anything with Pistol at the same time, which is normally not allowed. Important for things like Mortarion but less likely in the two armies you've mentioned. 

[Galron]

Yes, again the rules could change but a monster or vehicle in combat can be fired at or fired from. There is a -1 penalty to shooting. In another really brain dead case, monsters and vehicles(I think) in combat with weapons having the Heavy keyword ignore the penalty because despite the fact they are dodging and rolling and fighting things in close combat, they arent technically moving thus the heavy +1 bonus comes into effect. I forget what the Blast restriction in close combat is but it is negligable from what I remember. Sorry I dont remember a lot of the details, it has been 5 months since I got a game in for health reasons.  

[Rowland]

Oh boy, Warhammer rules and I just aren’t understanding each other.  It takes my mate and I ages to decide on the meaning of a rule.  Take my Librarians melee weapon.  It is a Psychic weapon…okay whats that…look in the rules, page 38 has the answer…so it says a Psychic weapon has the label Psychic.  And if it causes a unit to suffer a wound it is considered to have suffered a Psychic Attack.  There doesn’t seem to be any explanation of what a Psychic attack is…apparently it’s on the same page.

We decided the hits dealt could be transferred to other figures rather than fizzle out like…is it “penetrating wounds”?

 

We also wrestled with sustained hits…each critical hit ( rolling a six on the Hit roll) scores x additional hits on the target (in this case 1) So thats an extra dice when making the wound roll or an automatic extra hit and one extra roll for the saving roll.

I’m not stupid these rules are just so poorly explained imho…

 

Also, neither of us have beaten the Vardenghast swarm with Strike force Octavius, are we bad or is it?

[gaurdian31]

Psychic is just a descriptor, it doesn't do anything special except some armies have rules that interact with the Psychic keyword. Mostly it is to give a unit Feel No Pain against Psychic attacks. The description you have for "Penetrating Wounds" is actually "Mortal Wounds" and Psychic attacks do not normally spill over. Sustained Hits X means that on a roll of 6 you get X hits instead of one so you roll X wounds during that phase. An automatic wound is a Lethal hit that skips the wound roll and automatically causes an armor save. Hopefully that helps! The rules can be really complicated and we are moving to another edition which may change all of this.

[Rowland]

1 hour ago, gaurdian31 said:

Psychic is just a descriptor, it doesn't do anything special except some armies have rules that interact with the Psychic keyword. Mostly it is to give a unit Feel No Pain against Psychic attacks. The description you have for "Penetrating Wounds" is actually "Mortal Wounds" and Psychic attacks do not normally spill over. Sustained Hits X means that on a roll of 6 you get X hits instead of one so you roll X wounds during that phase. An automatic wound is a Lethal hit that skips the wound roll and automatically causes an armor save. Hopefully that helps! The rules can be really complicated and we are moving to another edition which may change all of this.

Ah, that clarifies the Psychic thing.  So it doesn’t actually mean that his big  Psychic axe is any better than the Capt or Sgts swords generally.

So sustained 1 means you just throw an extra wound dice.

The frustration is that they don’t explain, for novices the “negatives” for example we were trying to work out if a Psychophage (a Monster) could enter a ruin.  The rules don’t mention monsters just:;infantry, beasts and flying things, so after much to-ing and fro-ing we decided that they can’t enter.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Karhedron]

  

13 hours ago, Rowland said:

Ah, that clarifies the Psychic thing.  So it doesn’t actually mean that his big  Psychic axe is any better than the Capt or Sgts swords generally.

 

In 10th edition, that is correct. Psychic does nothing by itself but can be a trigger for other special rules. Apparently this is changing in 11th edition and Psychic will confer actual bonuses (I think they mentioned that psychic attacks ignore negative to Hit modifiers but wait for the official rules to drop).

 

13 hours ago, Rowland said:

So sustained 1 means you just throw an extra wound dice.

 

No, that is not correct. The rules for Sustained X are as follows:

 

Sustained Hits X is an ability that triggers additional successful hits whenever you roll a "Critical Hit" (normally an unmodified hit roll of a 6). It gives you X extra hits for free without requiring additional hit rolls.

 

For example, imagine you roll 3 attack dice with Sustained Hits 2 needing a 3+ to Hit. You roll a 1, 4 and 6. This works out at follows:

 

1 = Miss

4 = Hit

6 = Hit + 2 extra Hits from Sustained 2

 

So this means that when you go to the roll to Wound step, you roll 4 dice.

 

If you are lucky and roll 6, 6, 6, to Hit, that means you would roll 9 dice to Wound.

Edited May 29 by Karhedron

[Rowland]

6 hours ago, Karhedron said:

  

 

In 10th edition, that is correct. Psychic does nothing by itself but can be a trigger for other special rules. Apparently this is changing in 11th edition and Psychic will confer actual bonuses (I think they mentioned that psychic attacks ignore negative to Hit modifiers but wait for the official rules to drop).

 

 

No, that is not correct. The rules for Sustained X are as follows:

 

Sustained Hits X is an ability that triggers additional successful hits whenever you roll a "Critical Hit" (normally an unmodified hit roll of a 6). It gives you X extra hits for free without requiring additional hit rolls.

 

For example, imagine you roll 3 attack dice with Sustained Hits 2 needing a 3+ to Hit. You roll a 1, 4 and 6. This works out at follows:

 

1 = Miss

4 = Hit

6 = Hit + 2 extra Hits from Sustained 2

 

So this means that when you go to the roll to Wound step, you roll 4 dice.

 

If you are lucky and roll 6, 6, 6, to Hit, that means you would roll 9 dice to Wound.

Thanks Karhedron, I’ve discovered the apps rules have examples (like yours) which makes things clearer than the book.  I find the wording like:” scores a hit” is meaningless to me because I struggle atm to separate hits and wounds.  So saying “sustained hits x means on an initial hit roll of a 6 you gain X potential to wound so add that number of dice to the wound roll” would make perfect sense to a beginner like me.

Thanks both for the help.  I’m hopeful that I will get there in the end.

Edited May 29 by Rowland

[Rowland]

@Karhedronhave they been misleading in the description of Devastating wounds committing Mortal wounds? On page 80 of the new rules  The description suggests what you have described mortal wounds do, they cleave (again GW using a technical term out of place) through more than one enemy model.  And yet the example and the following description suggests that mortal wounds conducted by a Devastating weapon don’t carry over?  Mind blown

Example: An attack made with a [DEVASTATING WOUNDS] weapon with
a D characteristic of 3 results in a critical wound against an Intercessor Squad, so inflicts 3 mortal wounds. The first 2 mortal wounds are sufficient
to destroy 1 Intercessor model, so the remaining mortal wound is lost.

 

The description in the app of Devastating wounds (which is still 10ed.) suggests that DWs inflict MWs on the target (unit(?)) which as we discussed previously do carry over…

Edited June 2 by Rowland

[Karhedron]

22 minutes ago, Rowland said:

@Karhedronhave they been misleading in the description of Devastating wounds committing Mortal wounds? On page 80 of the new rules  The description suggests what you have described mortal wounds do, they cleave (again GW using a technical term out of place) through more than one enemy model.  And yet the example and the following description suggests that mortal wounds conducted by a Devastating weapon don’t carry over?  Mind blown

Example: An attack made with a [DEVASTATING WOUNDS] weapon with
a D characteristic of 3 results in a critical wound against an Intercessor Squad, so inflicts 3 mortal wounds. The first 2 mortal wounds are sufficient
to destroy 1 Intercessor model, so the remaining mortal wound is lost.

 

The description in the app of Devastating wounds (which is still 10ed.) suggests that DWs inflict MWs on the target (unit(?)) which as we discussed previously do carry over…

 

I think you may be mixing up what happens at the "Roll to Hit" step and the "Roll to Wound" step. Everything I described in my example occurs in the "Roll to Hit" step. This is where Critical Hits occur which trigger abilities such as Sustained Hits and Lethal Hits.

 

Devastating Wounds occur in the "Roll to Wound" step and are separate from the example I gave above.

[Rowland]

Yes, I often get the two confused but I’m referring to this conversatIon…

 

“Not quite. To take you example of a Terminator Captain's sword does 2 Damage. This means that against a model with 2 or more Wounds, each failed save will inflict 2 Wounds. However against 1 Wound models, any excess does not carry over. The Captain has 6 attacks so if every attack Hits, Wounds, and a save is failed, then he will kill 6 Termagants. However he won't kill any more than 6. Even though the sword does 2 Damage, he cannot kill more than 1 Termagant per Hit (not per melee phase).

    Now imagine the Captain has a rule causes his Sword to inflict Mortal Wounds. Again we shall assume that all his attacks Hit and Wound. The first thing that happens is that there is no saving throw since Mortal Wounds negate both Armour and Invulnerable saves (although Feel No Pain still applies). Now those wounds are allowed to carry over. The Captain has inflicted 6 wounding hits but since each one inflicts 2 Damage, there are a total of 12 Mortal Wounds. This means he can kill up to 12 Termagants if he is in combat with that many.”