40K mysteries

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

In short if GW knows the answer to a question or scenario they posed us they must answer it at some point.

 

GW often doesn't know the answer when it creates a mystery. They scatter plot hooks like seeds through their lore so they can pick up on things later. A classic example is the 3rd edition BRB vaguely mentioned "the quiescent perils of C'tan". It was years later that they picked this name up for the Necron star-gods.

[Karhedron]

6 hours ago, Kommisar_K said:

Anyway, I'm kinda curious about the true origin of the Orks. Only stuff I've heard is that they were probably creations of the Old Ones, but "Orks iz Orks" they say. Never found out if that theory has officially been confirmed or is just fanfiction. Anyway, seems like a tale that could be quite interesting. Even more so if we just got a few tidbits. 

 

Yes, this was confirmed in the 5th edition Necron codex. The Old Ones created a race of resilient, green skinned warriors called the Krork to act as their foot soldiers in the war against the Necrons. Some characters in 40k have referred to Orks as Krork.

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, Vogon said:

One thing I'd like to know is what happened to all the perpetuals from theHH books. I think a couple were resolved but there were quite a few of them.

 

I think that the only Perpetuals surviving after the HH are the Emperor, Vulkan, Cyrene Valantion (now merged with Katerina Moriana) and John Gramaticus, everyone else is dead. Also it is not clear if JG is still a Perpetual or is on his last life since he was resurrected by the Eldar which may be a one-time deal. Here are the ones I can remember.

 

Malcador: Burned up by the Golden Throne.

Alivia Sureka: Sacrificed her immortality to resurrect Malcador after he was killed by Magnus

Ollanius: Killed by Horus while protecting the Emperor

Damon Prytanis: Killed by Barthusa Narek at the behest of Eldrad

Erda: Killed by Eerebus and 4 Greater Daemons

 

This suggests that the Emperor is the last surviving "true" Perpetual since the others received their powers from others. Vulkan was designed that way by the Emperor. Cyrene only became a Perpetual after being resurrected by Erebus. John Grammaticus became a Perpetual after being empowered by the Eldar.

[Rogue]

9 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

In short if GW knows the answer to a question or scenario they posed us they must answer it at some point.

 

I'm curious as to why you think that. 

 

I get the Chekhov's Gun element, and in something that's more narrative, I'd broadly agree. 

 

But when it comes to world-building, I don't think everything does need to be resolved. In a complex and interesting world, not everything needs to be explained or even explored. It's the open-endedness that brings depth and texture to the world. 

 

But we're in very subjective territory, so, like I said, I'm interested to know why you think the opposite.

[GSCUprising]

3 hours ago, Rogue said:

 

I'm curious as to why you think that. 

 

I get the Chekhov's Gun element, and in something that's more narrative, I'd broadly agree. 

 

But when it comes to world-building, I don't think everything does need to be resolved. In a complex and interesting world, not everything needs to be explained or even explored. It's the open-endedness that brings depth and texture to the world. 

 

But we're in very subjective territory, so, like I said, I'm interested to know why you think the opposite.

I am in agreement here. Mysteries posed by the creators of the setting do not *have* to be resolved. When planted and planted well, as opposed to just tossed in like some casual narrative hand grenade, can linger and add to the setting. 

 

I quite enjoy some mysteries being left in the stories I read and have incorporated a couple into my own writing. 329, in my writing, for example, is not sentient, but still autonomous. One character becomes a little too obsessed with trying to pry open its secrets and it really saddens him when he has to send it off on a suicide run knowing he'll never know all the answers. 

 

And I'll never give those answers because even I don't have them, intentionally. I would hope its a similar case for Legios II and XIII. I don't need to know the answer. Keep me guessing!

[Antarius]

I am broadly in agreement with the last couple of posts, but I'd also add that, from a purely practical perspective, since most of these mysteries were not designed as actual mysteries with a solution, the odds that they can be answered in a way that is at all satisfying and/or makes any sense seem quite low.

[ThaneOfTas]

To be honest, I'm fine with mysteries existing in the background, but you cant then go and tease at those mysteries as time goes on. II and XI are prime examples of this, the more that GW hint and tease at them over the years, as well as the more of the Crusade and Heresy that gets written about, the more obvious it gets that the mystery box is actually empty, theres nothing behind the curtain.

 

Basically, I don't need to know what the answer actually is, but I need to believe that there is an answer. The more obvious that it gets that there's no real answer, the less invested I am. 

[Valkyrion]

Legions II and XI are the best mystery, IMO, and it was fun getting new information throughout the HH books (e.g suggestions they were folded in to the UM and IF, hints that Leman Russ killed one etc), but if one day there is a line or story or even novel series about who they definitively were then it would ruin it because it wouldn't be done well enough. 

 

Just like real life mysteries. Do I want to know how they built the pyramids? Yes, but only if it's aliens or sound magic or something, not if it's just slaves and big rollers.

Do I want to Atlantis to be discovered? Sure, but only if they were a race of technologically advanced super humans, not that it was a tiny little port that got nuked when a volcano erupted. 

 

So do I want to find out what happened to II? Yes, but only if it turns out they fled the galaxy, encountered the Tyranids, were eaten by the Tyranids who then discovered how to find our galaxy and begin a journey 10,000 years in the making. I don't want to know that he was a hippy pacifist that wanted peace and love instead of conquering the galaxy so fell out with his dad. 

[Antarius]

7 hours ago, ThaneOfTas said:

Basically, I don't need to know what the answer actually is, but I need to believe that there is an answer. The more obvious that it gets that there's no real answer, the less invested I am. 

It's pretty much the "Lost" pitfall of storytelling. If you just keep adding more mystery hints in order to keep people interested but don't actually have any sort of meaning behind the mystery, it eventually becomes pretty apparent that there's no actual story there.

But vague mentions of things that sound cool, as fodder for the imagination is a different matter.

[Evil Eye]

Thermonuclear take but I wish there were MORE lost Legions with varying levels of information surviving ranging from "they existed" to "They wore orange" at maximum, if only for your dudes potential for HH. The second and eleventh Legions being the most infamous ones, the others being wiped out/dissolved over mundane, honourable or humiliating circumstances.

[Vassakov]

8 hours ago, ThaneOfTas said:

To be honest, I'm fine with mysteries existing in the background, but you cant then go and tease at those mysteries as time goes on. II and XI are prime examples of this, the more that GW hint and tease at them over the years, as well as the more of the Crusade and Heresy that gets written about, the more obvious it gets that the mystery box is actually empty, theres nothing behind the curtain.

 

Basically, I don't need to know what the answer actually is, but I need to believe that there is an answer. The more obvious that it gets that there's no real answer, the less invested I am. 

 

So, this attitude makes sense to a degree in more linear fictional settings but I actually think trying to apply this logic to 40k is a bit of a red herring.

 

40k isn't a narrative. Even with the more focused storytelling since 2018 on the Indomitus Crusade and now the Imperator Crusade, it's still a setting designed to sell toy soldiers. The II and XI aren't lost because of narrative reasons or because they wanted a "mystery box" - it was there to allow players to go wild. Leaving it vague and ambiguous is the point, because despite much of the doomposting about it in this parish and elsewhere... making your own models is still a core part of the hobby. Vast stretches of time and space are left vague to enable players and hobbyists to do what they want. Not everything exists to be explained.

 

Hotter take: The "wikification" of 40k is far more potentially damaging than the rules simplification/changes or the rules for army construction. 

[Felix Antipodes]

I don’t have a problem with mysteries in W40K.   As @Vassakov stated they are there for a reason.  For instance, if they ever explained who the lost Primarchs were and what they did to earn the enmity of the Emperor I would probably be pissed off.  In my head-canon I already know the answers and how it affects (or not) “my guys” and their place in the settings.  However, if GW ever change their mind and ever do a game set in the Great Crusade, they may have to rethink this.  

Do we need to know the origins of the Tyranids to fight them on the tabletop?  I think not, but YVMV.

[Tawnis]

On 5/17/2026 at 9:51 PM, ThaneOfTas said:

To be honest, I'm fine with mysteries existing in the background, but you cant then go and tease at those mysteries as time goes on. II and XI are prime examples of this, the more that GW hint and tease at them over the years, as well as the more of the Crusade and Heresy that gets written about, the more obvious it gets that the mystery box is actually empty, theres nothing behind the curtain.

 

Basically, I don't need to know what the answer actually is, but I need to believe that there is an answer. The more obvious that it gets that there's no real answer, the less invested I am. 

That's really interesting. I'm curious, what leads you to that conclusion? 

I've always been pretty interested in the Lost Primarchs and I've actually felt the opposite from all the recent lore stuff (post 2019). That they have decided loosely who they were and what they did, they just aren't telling anyone because the mystery is super popular. There are a lot of connecting breadcrumbs in the fluff in recent years if you know where to look (or know to look where something should be but isn't). 

[Kaede45]

Seeing all the discussion of the lost primarchs, I had the thought that it would’ve been fun to address them without addressing them. For instance, they & their legions would be mentioned, but never by name other than number, they could be listed as taking part in certain battles whilst no details of their involvement are revealed & I think most importantly, they indicate which legion is loyal & which is traitor. Having them as unnamed, but ever present characters with no actual details would make them more fun for people who want to create their own legions. You’d then have a template for your own primarch being in the story without having to adhere too far to established canon.

[Tawnis]

3 hours ago, Kaede45 said:

I think most importantly, they indicate which legion is loyal & which is traitor.

That is one of the few things we know for sure. While the original lore had the implication was one was loyalist and one was traitor, it has been cannon for quite a while now that they were erased long before the Horus Heresy so the normal titles of loyalist or traitor don't apply to them. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Did the emperor ever find Atlantis? Or Nessie? Or big foot?

were the grays the first xenos species he eliminated?

[Kaede45]

On 5/21/2026 at 12:17 PM, Tawnis said:

That is one of the few things we know for sure. While the original lore had the implication was one was loyalist and one was traitor, it has been cannon for quite a while now that they were erased long before the Horus Heresy so the normal titles of loyalist or traitor don't apply to them. 

True enough, but I was talking about if the legions had survived into the modern day. Having them be mentioned, but never truly addressed. It could be pretty fun to have these 2 legions—one loyal & one traitor—who are just always present in the background, from the Heresy to modern 40K, but never named or addressed to allow fans to plug in their own characters, legions, lore, etc.

On 5/23/2026 at 5:17 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Did the emperor ever find Atlantis? Or Nessie? Or big foot?

were the grays the first xenos species he eliminated?

Maybe he was in the kitchen with Dinah too!

[Timberley]

On 5/26/2026 at 12:06 AM, Kaede45 said:

True enough, but I was talking about if the legions had survived into the modern day. Having them be mentioned, but never truly addressed. It could be pretty fun to have these 2 legions—one loyal & one traitor—who are just always present in the background, from the Heresy to modern 40K, but never named or addressed to allow fans to plug in their own characters, legions, lore, etc.

Maybe he was in the kitchen with Dinah too!

As I recall, the original purpose of the 2 Lost Legions was to allow players to create their own Legions and use them in the setting with their redacted status meaning that everyone's custom legion could be correct, because there was nothing to say it wasn't.  I can't remember who (from the original team) originally said it though.

In overall terms, I'm with @Vassakov - the 'wikification' of the setting is possibly one of the most damaging things for the setting.  To my mind the mysteries should be presented and then never spoken of again, aside from occasional references to the mystery being a mystery.  In true 40K style, a story character could discover the answer to a mystery, only to be killed before other characters (and we, the audience) find out.

[Vassakov]

The other thing about the II and XI Legions is that they are a nod to the actual "lost legions" of Rome... because if something looks a bit odd in certainly early 40k, chances are it's a reference to something or an "in-joke." 

 

Other examples include the half-Eldar psyker Illiyan Nastase being a reference to tennis player Ilie Năstase, or basically half the Primarchs names and homeworlds being... well, jokes. Something the writers thought was funny. 

 

Not everything is meant to be taken 100% straight and serious. GW is a company that produces toy soldiers and doesn't take itself or its worlds massively seriously. You shouldn't either.

[Blissful Brushes]

For me a lot of mysteries are probably from things I’ve not read in the setting yet, which in a way feels like of appropriate, only knowing my little corner of a dark and dangerous galaxy. I really like the mystery of 40k, it makes the map larger and gives us more freedom to do our own thing with the setting. 
 

Saying that, mysteries I’ve been interested in:

- The origin of the Tyranids or I suppose the Sothanids if you’re a HH guy.

- What happened to the Blackshields post-heresy? Are they euthanised? Do the larger forces get folded into Ultramarines chapters? Are they essentially used up retaking territory? My Luna Wolves are arguably such a force and I have them coming into the second founding as an offshoot of the Smurfs for ‘legal reasons’

- I’d love more on Rogue Traders who are by definition mysterious

- Renegade Space Marines who aren’t chaos, aren’t Imperial but the few who have thought you know what, after fighting Orks for 300 years I just want a farm. 

[The Lost Son]

I think the loss of mystery was always going to be inevitable in a sense, especially regarding the Heresy - once Horus Rising was released the genie was out the bottle it roughly coincided with "New GW" truly having the reins. Unfortunately the tight oversight required to run a huge series was lacking at points probably influenced by bean counters wanting to flog the horse and I'm sure that there were many voices saying but this will mess up everything we built before, you know that alluded to this stuff but there was nothing concrete. Alas money especially in that era was definitely king. Not to say the Heresy was bad just I'd honestly have preferred a few books as a tie in series with more forge world centered "factual" versions. 

On an odd one I know primarchs are divisive in 40k but we were actually told Guiliman was coming back years ago, I don't mean in the lore with his wounds healing in the eyes of pilgrims but Graham McNiell flat out said it in an old White Dwarf interview. I can't remember which Ventris book he was talking about possibly Dead Sky Black Sun. Now I'm wondering how many other random things have actually been answered clear in text but out of universe. 

The biggest change for me regarding the lore is how the tone has shifted up to 5th it was apocryphal for the most with more emphasis on believe what you see? * Perhaps not the correct framing but close enough for now* In the modern era I assume in a combination of IP protection and the fact that there are so many different forms of accessing the lore from the actual sources to YouTubers/Memes etc.as well as the way younger generations interact with media that a more direct approach is given to avoid misunderstanding. 

Edited June 4 by The Lost Son
Spell check needs to learn high gothic

[Antarius]

I think I remember Rick Priestley saying that the lost legions weren't so much meant for you to make up your own (IIRC he said he left us 900-something chapters for that), as much as they were intended as a fun little mystery for you to wonder about what exactly they had done to be scrubbed from the records - and I agree that they're probably also a reference to the lost roman legions.

Many things have been said to try and explain why there is this tendency in new(er) 40K and I agree with most of them. However, the one thing I think is central in explaining the overall tendency is time. The setting has existed for so long that it is almost inevitable that things will be expanded upon and every nugget of "information" (as much as it may not be intended to be anything more than an evocative name or reference) will be turned over and examined for its potential for creating new stories and products that have the 40K feel.
It is probably also inevitable that this will not always, if ever, work out particularly well for the feel of the setting as a whole, But such is the way of things; mysteries and veiled hints can rarely be sustained forever and what is invented to explain them can rarely live up to the imagined possibilities.

I don't think the last ten years would have been chuck full of brilliant lore if only they had/hadn't done X or Y - I think it's just that there is a limited amount of stories to be told, before things start to get samey or feel like something quite different. But luckily, our own characters and stories can still feel fresh and cool to us and the people we create them with, even though they would probably seem generic to most other people. That's the beauty of this kind of hobby.

[Tawnis]

On 6/3/2026 at 11:14 PM, Antarius said:

It is probably also inevitable that this will not always, if ever, work out particularly well for the feel of the setting as a whole, But such is the way of things

 

Having as not as pleasing a thing as wanting, rather illogical, but often true. So long as the Lost Primarch remain a mystery, they will be this super interesting thing that everyone is trying to figure out. If they are revealed, it will be a huge thing for a short amount of time, then just die off because the not knowing was the fun part. 

[Zoatibix]

I don't really keep up with modern fluff as the last Drukhari codex (Incubi fluff specifically) dulled my interest.  So, I don't feel the lessening of the sandbox.

I do feel that the ambiguity and hints at stuff is one of the things I really like about 40k.  The speculation is more interesting than the answers ever turn out to be.

I continue to be annoyed that they felt the need out of nowhere to take the hints at the Exorcists Chapter being linked to Grey Knights and just say 'No, this hella dodgy chapter are just descended from Regular Guys' 

Why did you need to do that, bruh? Why?