Helldivers 2 x Warhammer 40,000 Warbond

[DemonGSides]

53 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

I really hate the awful change they made to the lasguns. It's just a yellow Star Wars blaster now. Looks awful in RTS games, makes readability worse. "Lasgun bolts" Give me a break. The way Melta weapons are depicted in this is great, matches what I always imagined and how they worked in Dawn of War 1 and 2. I always hated how the Meltagun worked in Space Marine 2 and Boltgun, it just looked like blowing a puff of vapour at someone. 

This genuinely sucks, it just look like a big rifle tracer. 

 

Red beams are DoW invention. IG had yellow bolts long before that. See 2nd, 3rd, 4th and Catachan codexes for what true IG players know.

 

Hell, someone already posted City Fight showing yellow bolts. Pretty funny to see you get bent out of shape about something that hews closer to the old head style while calling it a modern change. 

 

(I do agree SM2 melta is a disappointment. Should've just put in the astartes shotgun like they seem to want it to be.)

Edited July 30 by DemonGSides

[MoriyaSchism]

1 minute ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Red beams are DoW invention. IG had yellow bolts long before that. See 2nd, 3rd, 4th and Catachan codexes for what true IG players know.

 

Hell, someone already posted City Fight showing yellow bolts. Pretty funny to see you get bent out of shape about something that hews closer to the old head style while calling it a modern change. 

 

(I do agree SM2 melta is a disappointment. Should've just put in the astartes shotgun like they seem to want it to be.)

Dawn of War 1 featured yellow and orange beams for most of its lasweapons. The City Fight cover art only shows the muzzle flash. There's 3rd or 4th edition art of a Sentinel firing a yellow multilaser beam. There are multiple depictions of Scions firing beams out of their rifles. It's inconsistent and I prefer the beam over the bolt, because it makes the lasgun look less conventional and it has better readability in RTS games. 

[Nephaston]

1 hour ago, MoriyaSchism said:

I really hate the awful change they made to the lasguns. It's just a yellow Star Wars blaster now. Looks awful in RTS games, makes readability worse. "Lasgun bolts" Give me a break. The way Melta weapons are depicted in this is great, matches what I always imagined and how they worked in Dawn of War 1 and 2. I always hated how the Meltagun worked in Space Marine 2 and Boltgun, it just looked like blowing a puff of vapour at someone. 

This genuinely sucks, it just look like a big rifle tracer. 

 

At least for Helldivers it makes some sense, as red projectiles are more of an Automaton thing, and you want some clarity whether you die to filthy socialist robot guns or just happen to be in the way of glorious democratic friendly fire.

[DemonGSides]

56 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

Dawn of War 1 featured yellow and orange beams for most of its lasweapons. The City Fight cover art only shows the muzzle flash. There's 3rd or 4th edition art of a Sentinel firing a yellow multilaser beam. There are multiple depictions of Scions firing beams out of their rifles. It's inconsistent and I prefer the beam over the bolt, because it makes the lasgun look less conventional and it has better readability in RTS games. 

 

You think a beam would have muzzle flare?

 

This isn't an RTS game and there's already red lasers welded by an enemy faction; if readability is a concern, well, they have taken that concern to heart. 

 

Either way, it isn't a new change, like you said it was.

Edited July 30 by DemonGSides

[MoriyaSchism]

1 minute ago, DemonGSides said:

 

You think a beam would have muzzle flare?

 

This isn't an RTS game and there's already red lasers welded by an enemy faction; if readability is a concern, well, they have taken that concern to heart. 

 

Either way, it isn't a new change, like you said it was.

Them clarifying it and then cementing it as bolt is what I consider new. They most certainly didn't care about beams in recent depictions like Space Marine 2 and Darktide. Beams even appeared in some of the Warhammer Plus videos. Why the clarification and enforcement of the bolt idea now? Just seems strange and to me aesthetically worse. 

[Dezron]

2 hours ago, MoriyaSchism said:

I really hate the awful change they made to the lasguns. It's just a yellow Star Wars blaster now. Looks awful in RTS games, makes readability worse. "Lasgun bolts" Give me a break. The way Melta weapons are depicted in this is great, matches what I always imagined and how they worked in Dawn of War 1 and 2. I always hated how the Meltagun worked in Space Marine 2 and Boltgun, it just looked like blowing a puff of vapour at someone. 

This genuinely sucks, it just look like a big rifle tracer. 

You know what? I'm starting to find all those complains about lasguns color just funny, so much valid things to comaplin about, but no let's complain about lasgun color. That's so silly.

The lasguns can have whatever color. It doesn't matter, it's just a color.

[Jukkiz]

I hope the hellgun (hot-shot) marksman rifle is heavy penetrating weapon. The ylelow colour is basically all Helldivers 2 laser weapons specific also, ties in. 

But rather then shooting weird "bolt" of laser, it should be just ZAP, kinda beam. Like it is in space marine and space marine 2. Even in fallout games it is just zap, beam type looks.

EDIT. 
Don´t know why they made hot-shot marksman rifle variant when Long las exists and would´ve fitted in better, but my guess is because they were painting the kasrkin kill team and this fellow is "sniper" there

 

Edited July 30 by Jukkiz

[MoriyaSchism]

13 minutes ago, Dezron said:

You know what? I'm starting to find all those complains about lasguns color just funny, so much valid things to comaplin about, but no let's complain about lasgun color. That's so silly.

The lasguns can have whatever color. It doesn't matter, it's just a color.

The colour ultimately doesn't matter as the colours vary in some of the books. I just don't like it not being a continuous beam. You should probably read what I say before commenting or dropping a disagree, but you're free to do whatever you please just as I am free to complain. 

[Evil Eye]

Yeah, lasguns firing "bolts" never made much sense to me, especially as they'd always prior been depicted firing beams (which makes sense with them explicitly being laser weapons).

[Kallas]

4 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Red beams are DoW invention. IG had yellow bolts long before that. See 2nd, 3rd, 4th and Catachan codexes for what true IG players know.

 

I meeeeean...

 

Space Marine 2 shows red beams pretty clearly. And that's a big 40k game released just two years ago, and obviously must have been signed off on by GW - hard to imagine they just missed it.

 

From GW's article:

Quote

Their depiction has been remarkably consistent: they fire discrete, pale white-yellow bolts, not visually dissimilar to the tracers of the hard-round guns they replaced. You can see that lasguns do have a type of muzzle flare – not a flame like gunpowder weapons, but more a flash of light. More recently, we’ve also started to see them pop up on our TV screens and gaming devices with varying examples of what they look and sound like in action. 

 

Of course, some variance in colour is explained by the energy interacting differently to different sorts of atmospheric conditions, not to mention the many patterns and variations in use across the vastness of the Imperium. 

 

My gripe with "Lasguns fire yellow bolts" is just the typical GW standardisation nonsense - 40k is supposed to be so huge that this kind of standardisation shouldn't really be a thing. There are so many Guardsmen, with so many different patterns of Lasgun, that they should never go down the "everything is like this" kind of definitive route, especially when laying it out in some random online article just because.

 

And when we have things like Darktide, SM2, and of course DOW, which are official and approved games, it's kind of disingenuous for them to turn around and say, "Well ackshually!"

 

2 hours ago, Dezron said:

The lasguns can have whatever color. It doesn't matter, it's just a color.

Fundamentally agreed, the main problem is GW cracking down on their own depictions to make one singular canon depiction ("Oh all those other colours are just atmospheric conditions").

 

While it's hardly the end of the world, the actual beams of the Lasguns are depicted in SM2, Darktide, and DOW are all far more distinctive to 40k than the yellow bolts that we've just seen in the latest TW:40k and DOW4 trailers/showcases, where they look like any other random guns. It's just so very GW for them to make a decision like this when they really didn't need to.

Edited July 30 by Kallas

[Mogger351]

8 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Fundamentally agreed, the main problem is GW cracking down on their own depictions to make one singular canon depiction ("Oh all those other colours are just atmospheric conditions").

 

Have they done this via statement anywhere? Or is this hollow conjecture?

[Kallas]

39 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Have they done this via statement anywhere? Or is this hollow conjecture?

 

The linked article, where they say, as I quoted already, "Their depiction has been remarkably consistent: they fire discrete, pale white-yellow bolts, not visually dissimilar to the tracers of the hard-round guns they replaced. You can see that lasguns do have a type of muzzle flare – not a flame like gunpowder weapons, but more a flash of light. More recently, we’ve also started to see them pop up on our TV screens and gaming devices with varying examples of what they look and sound like in action."

 

Like, how can that be read as them not making the "pale white-yellow bolts" the definitive Lasgun projectile? They are literally saying "this is how it is, with other stuff coming out recently" (with a very nebulous definition of 'recently' - DOW 1, which released 22 years ago depicts red beams - those red beams are old enough to drink, smoke and vote in pretty much any country, and that's just vague because I can't be bothered to check if there are any countries that don't allow 21-22 year olds to vote...)

[Jukkiz]

2 hours ago, Kallas said:

 

The linked article, where they say, as I quoted already, "Their depiction has been remarkably consistent: they fire discrete, pale white-yellow bolts, not visually dissimilar to the tracers of the hard-round guns they replaced. You can see that lasguns do have a type of muzzle flare – not a flame like gunpowder weapons, but more a flash of light. More recently, we’ve also started to see them pop up on our TV screens and gaming devices with varying examples of what they look and sound like in action."

 

Like, how can that be read as them not making the "pale white-yellow bolts" the definitive Lasgun projectile? They are literally saying "this is how it is, with other stuff coming out recently" (with a very nebulous definition of 'recently' - DOW 1, which released 22 years ago depicts red beams - those red beams are old enough to drink, smoke and vote in pretty much any country, and that's just vague because I can't be bothered to check if there are any countries that don't allow 21-22 year olds to vote...)

Tau fire warrior came out year before and that aswell had red beams for lasguns... 

[Mogger351]

9 hours ago, Kallas said:

 

The linked article, where they say, as I quoted already, "Their depiction has been remarkably consistent: they fire discrete, pale white-yellow bolts, not visually dissimilar to the tracers of the hard-round guns they replaced. You can see that lasguns do have a type of muzzle flare – not a flame like gunpowder weapons, but more a flash of light. More recently, we’ve also started to see them pop up on our TV screens and gaming devices with varying examples of what they look and sound like in action."

 

Like, how can that be read as them not making the "pale white-yellow bolts" the definitive Lasgun projectile? They are literally saying "this is how it is, with other stuff coming out recently" (with a very nebulous definition of 'recently' - DOW 1, which released 22 years ago depicts red beams - those red beams are old enough to drink, smoke and vote in pretty much any country, and that's just vague because I can't be bothered to check if there are any countries that don't allow 21-22 year olds to vote...)

 

I don't see a problem they cover the alternative very clearly:

 

Quote

Of course, some variance in colour is explained by the energy interacting differently to different sorts of atmospheric conditions, not to mention the many patterns and variations in use across the vastness of the Imperium. 

 

That explains all the other games and their representations. Beyond their written line not pairing with your personal preferences, what's the problem?

[DemonGSides]

16 hours ago, Kallas said:

 

I meeeeean...

 

Space Marine 2 shows red beams pretty clearly. And that's a big 40k game released just two years ago, and obviously must have been signed off on by GW - hard to imagine they just missed it.

 

Weirdly enough, SM2 came out after DoW; hence why I said they're a DoW invention/contrivance.  I don't really care what the laser beams look like because I'm not a weird rivet counter.  They didn't miss it, they just aren't interested in consistency/are willing to let one be used for situations where it makes more sense, and they are happy to utilize marketing in weird ways; no one really takes WH Community website as the be-all end-all for any Warhammer decisions, I would hope.

 

16 hours ago, Kallas said:

From GW's article:

 

My gripe with "Lasguns fire yellow bolts" is just the typical GW standardisation nonsense - 40k is supposed to be so huge that this kind of standardisation shouldn't really be a thing. There are so many Guardsmen, with so many different patterns of Lasgun, that they should never go down the "everything is like this" kind of definitive route, especially when laying it out in some random online article just because.

 

And when we have things like Darktide, SM2, and of course DOW, which are official and approved games, it's kind of disingenuous for them to turn around and say, "Well ackshually!"

 

Marketing article that's out there to explain the various differences isn't exactly 'GW Standardization'.  It's marketing preying on an ongoing conversation to generate some clicks.

The article even covers those other examples, you just left it out of your random snipping of the article.

 

16 hours ago, Kallas said:

 

Fundamentally agreed, the main problem is GW cracking down on their own depictions to make one singular canon depiction ("Oh all those other colours are just atmospheric conditions").

 

While it's hardly the end of the world, the actual beams of the Lasguns are depicted in SM2, Darktide, and DOW are all far more distinctive to 40k than the yellow bolts that we've just seen in the latest TW:40k and DOW4 trailers/showcases, where they look like any other random guns. It's just so very GW for them to make a decision like this when they really didn't need to.

 

I don't think "Red laser beams" is all that 'distinctive' for anything.  There's a bajillion Sci-fi properties with red laser beams and laser bolts and all things inbetween.

 

But my original defense was against someone who said it was a recent change; it isn't.  There's never been any real consistency and different depictions depict different things.  That's okay, at least to me.  Some people need everything to be a specific thing; I'm not one of those people.

Edited July 31 by DemonGSides

[Kallas]

3 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

The article even covers those other examples, you just left it out of your random snipping of the article.

I didn't, actually. The point is that they're stating 'all of them are yellow bolts' and then 'actually they're not sometimes, but they are.' The issue is that they're being inconsistent even with their own assertion of consistency ("Their depiction has been remarkably consistent") despite extremely prominent GW-approved depictions that don't line up with their own claims that they're "remarkably consistent."

 

3 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

But my original defense was against someone who said it was a recent change; it isn't.  There's never been any real consistency and different depictions depict different things.  That's okay, at least to me.  Some people need everything to be a specific thing; I'm not one of those people.

Well it is a recent change to declare that they are all yellow bolts actually (it's just atmosphere makes them look different, totally!) - like I said above, DOW was 22 years ago (and as Jukkiz points out, Fire Warrior was 23 years ago), that is hardly 'recent'.

 

As for 'needing' things to be specific...the irony is that the only reason I have any kind of problem is because GW is trying to clamp down on what is/isn't 'accurate'. Lasguns having various depictions is totally fine, just don't try to pull the whole "actually they're always like this one thing" for some reason.

 

8 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

That explains all the other games and their representations. Beyond their written line not pairing with your personal preferences, what's the problem?

Because it was already clear that many different variations of Lasguns could produce very different projectiles/beams of different colours. Why even make it a whole thing that actually they're all yellow bolts and it's just atmosphere making it look different? Especially when they've signed off on extremely different depictions actually recently (ie, within the past two years, as opposed to over two decades ago - or to put it another way, well over half of the current lifespan of 40k's IRL timeline).

[Evil Eye]

5 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

I don't really care what the laser beams look like because I'm not a weird rivet counter.

I don't think wanting laser beams to be, well, beams makes one a rivet counter. Having some expectation of consistency and expressing a preference over depictions of stuff is completely normal and reasonable.

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

Because it was already clear that many different variations of Lasguns could produce very different projectiles/beams of different colours. Why even make it a whole thing that actually they're all yellow bolts and it's just atmosphere making it look different? Especially when they've signed off on extremely different depictions actually recently (ie, within the past two years, as opposed to over two decades ago - or to put it another way, well over half of the current lifespan of 40k's IRL timeline).

They don't, they say the standard stc is a yellow bolt but other variations and models of lasgun exist. It's clearly implied none yellow bolt versions are made.

 

Beyond this, honestly not worth this level of frustration imo and thats coming from someone who was put out by boyz squads having 2 nobz foisted on them to accommodate the new kit.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

I don't think wanting laser beams to be, well, beams makes one a rivet counter. Having some expectation of consistency and expressing a preference over depictions of stuff is completely normal and reasonable.

 

Are you saying it isn't cool to belittle the things people are passionate about? But how else is one supposed to feel superior to one's fellow hobbyists?

 

I will have you know that the aspects of the 40k universe that are important to me are the only ones that matter. Anything else is for nerds. ( ick!  )

 

  

49 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

someone who was put out by boyz squads having 2 nobz foisted on them to accommodate the new kit

 

With you on this one. Two nobz in a single mob is like two betta fish in the same tank.

Edited July 31 by phandaal

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

I don't think wanting laser beams to be, well, beams makes one a rivet counter. Having some expectation of consistency and expressing a preference over depictions of stuff is completely normal and reasonable.

 

I think getting bent out of shape that they aren't one specific way when there's always been multiple depictions of how they exist (Whatever a 'standard' may be as declared by GW is irrelevant at that point as they introduce cover to go against the standard within the same article (Still not sure on how much weight people should be placing in marketing articles either way)) is a lot different than saying "I like the beams, so that's how I'll think of them, but whatever you want is cool too."

One of those is reasonable.

 

[NorthernUltramarines]

21 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

 

With you on this one. Two nobz in a single mob is like two betta fish in the same tank.

I really wish they’d stuck another basic model in each box as having two Sergeants per 20 man guard squad feels really weird, same for two Nobz in my boys squads.

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

With you on this one. Two nobz in a single mob is like two betta fish in the same tank.

The closest thing I can think of to two nobz in a mob of boyz working is one being either the second biggest ork in the mob waiting for his chance to take over, or alternatively the "main" nob's second in command/best mate who acts as his "lootenunt" (that is, the ork who makes sure the other, runtier orks don't stab their boss in the back whilst he's picking the choicest loot). Neither of them seem like cases that would be particularly prolific or long-lasting given the...questionable stability of ork hierarchy.

 

That said, in an ideal world we'd have some kind of rule like the old Animosity system for WHFB O&G, with nobz being used to counteract it. In such a case I'd do it as such:

Animosity: Orks are notoriously difficult to keep in line, and are prone to collapsing into arguments over trivial matters in the heat of battle. At the beginning of each turn, each Ork unit with the Animosity rule that is more than 12" away from an Ork unit with the Boss rule (Warbosses, Big Bosses, Nob Squadz etc) and not locked in close combat must take a leadership test. If the test is passed, the mob may act as normal. If it is failed, they must roll a D6 on the Squabblin' table below.

1: "You wot?! I'll zoggin' have yer!"- the mob descends into a fistfight and receives D3 wounds. Armour saves may be taken against these. The mob may do nothing for the rest of that turn, though if it is charged it will fight as nornal.

2-5: "Now 'old on a sekund..."- the mob starts bickering over what they were actually supposed to be doing in the first place. The mob may choose to move in the movement phase towards the closest Boss (see above) to set them straight, but otherwise may do nothing, as above.

6: "Ah, never mind! I'z got it now."- the mob resolves their quarrelling and returns to business. The mob may act as normal, as if they had passed the test.

Nobz: A mob of boyz can take up to two nobz. A mob with one nob may use his leadership value for Animosity tests. A mob with two nobz may re-roll failed animosity tests; however, if they fail the second roll it automatically counts as if they had rolled a 1 on the Squabblin' table- do not roll a D6.

[Son of Rawl]

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