Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[Zebukkuk]

20 hours ago, MoriyaSchism said:

Would Eldar being a bit faster and some of their guns hitting a bit harder ruin the surprise that's coming up in god knows how many months? Do Codex sales depend on this? 

 

The specific question gave the example of Phobos armour Marines being faster than Eldar with their new 8 inch move. Adam pointed out that this isn’t technically true because Eldar have speed bonuses from Battle Focus.

 

It sounds like they plan to lean heavily into points updates to balance the game while we wait for new codexes after these first two.

Edited 3 hours ago by Zebukkuk
spelling

[Orange Knight]

Marines and Orks are getting new profiles and abilities with their new books.

Why would GW immediately update every other army at the same time?

If any sweeping changes will take place with Tau/Votann/Eldar/Necrons/Nids etc etc, they'll be in their respective codex.

 

I'm surprised so many people are asking questions about this when it's just another cycle of their standard operating procedure.

 

As for questions about what units may stay or go, this is far more relevant.

 

Best news from this is that the Legendary Proxies are actually going to get proper Legend rules. Best hobby news all week.

[Interrogator Stobz]

4 hours ago, Lathe Biosas said:

1I think the question is, will this Space Marine Boltgun upgrade affect all Bolt Weapons of other Imperial factions, like those used by Custodes and Sisters (of Battle/of Silence).

...and Legendary units.

[Captain Idaho]

Lol the Q&A:

 

"We always meant to make these units as Legends, we just haven't yet and introduced Proxies to be replaced soon."

 

Sure, always meant to. That's not backtracking at all. After all, making Legendary Proxies that will be obsolete soon because you're making Legends datasheets anyway was always the plan right? And certainly couldn't spend the time making Tactical Marines Legends when we have to prioritise the Hammerfall Bunker.

Edited 23 hours ago by Captain Idaho

[Mogger351]

29 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Marines and Orks are getting new profiles and abilities with their new books.

Why would GW immediately update every other army at the same time?

If any sweeping changes will take place with Tau/Votann/Eldar/Necrons/Nids etc etc, they'll be in their respective codex.

 

I'm surprised so many people are asking questions about this when it's just another cycle of their standard operating procedure.

Because the changes seen for those books are indicative of them operating on a completely different level to the other books. It's understandable that those who are being told to go suck it up might want to know if they get thrown a bone.

[Blindhamster]

6 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Because the changes seen for those books are indicative of them operating on a completely different level to the other books. It's understandable that those who are being told to go suck it up might want to know if they get thrown a bone.

Frankly, people need to chill out till we see points. There’s enough decent analysis on the changes and what it affects (auspex has done some good stuff there).

 

if marines go up 20% in points for example, that’ll add up and make a bigger difference.

 

they seem to be wanting to try and get factions feeling more like their respective lore now, but no, they were almost certainly not updating everyone at once. 
 

I suspect when eldar or dark eldar get done, we will see similar sweeping updates to both books too.

[mecanojavi99]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

My useless hope is any GK refresh is treated like the  Chaos Cult Legions in relation to Chaos Space Marines. I wouldn’t want Primaris-tech to be the overlap between them, but that’s just me. I just want GK players to be happy when the time comes.

I personally hope GW takes the chance to actually give more unique stuff to the GK, bespoke vehicles and aircraft would be appreciated.

 

Give me my psychic tank! Drive me closer I want to hit them with my brain!

[mecanojavi99]

1 hour ago, MoriyaSchism said:

A new Mark IV Castraferrum plastic kit would be even better. Maybe they could even sell it in one of those new double logo boxes like the Custodes. 

Would be weird for the super elite chapter of Daemon hunters that is supposed to have top of the line tech to use the obsolete model of Dreadnaught that basic chapters have phased out.

 

If anything, they should be using Contemptor Dreadnaughts, mix it with the old GK dreadnaught and call it a Comtemptor Banisher.

Edited 22 hours ago by mecanojavi99

[Mogger351]

11 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Frankly, people need to chill out till we see points. There’s enough decent analysis on the changes and what it affects (auspex has done some good stuff there).

 

if marines go up 20% in points for example, that’ll add up and make a bigger difference.

 

they seem to be wanting to try and get factions feeling more like their respective lore now, but no, they were almost certainly not updating everyone at once. 
 

I suspect when eldar or dark eldar get done, we will see similar sweeping updates to both books too.

GW stated the average marine list will be a few models smaller, so certainly not 20% by the sounds of it.

 

As they said, they won't be cranking up damage in other factions because it would undo the toughness increase (although I bet they will anyway).

 

They said they want marines to be standing up to 3-4 lesser soldiers at a time etc. That's the lore they want to make everyone fit, not the lore for the factions who are designed to die in droves.

 

I own a chaos marine army, just to point out there isn't pure bias here. I benefit from these changes, but I hate them. It's enough dissonance for me to think about giving it a break for a while.

[Interrogator Stobz]

As a Kill Team player, Marines feel exactly right in that game. Like outnumbered bullies.

Making them (relatively) better in 40k is about 35 years overdue. 

 

As a Legends only 40k player now, I fully support the changes, and can only hope in vain that SM Legends will see a similar upgrade to ability alongside an increase in point cost. 

[Orange Knight]

48 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Because the changes seen for those books are indicative of them operating on a completely different level to the other books. It's understandable that those who are being told to go suck it up might want to know if they get thrown a bone.

 

Toughness 6 Marine troops with 3 wounds and Str5, damage 2 weapons already existed and no one cared.

 

I think we need to wait and see how the entire codex pans out before making any judgement. 

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not gonna lie, many moons ago in a different edition lost to time, I detailed how I felt the range of stats should never have been limited to just wounds and big weapons. Even when vehicles started shifting up too.

 

A wider range, like T6 Marines, means there could be room for a T4 human, T5 Orks, T3 Eldar etc.

 

In the post 8th edition ruleset, I'm totally in favour of this. It would be a way of differentiating between models and units without endless special rules.

 

Of course GW have kept a unique special rule per unit trend alongside it, which is a different discussion, but I still enjoy the range of stats.

[MoriyaSchism]

1 hour ago, mecanojavi99 said:

I personally hope GW takes the chance to actually give more unique stuff to the GK, bespoke vehicles and aircraft would be appreciated.

 

Give me my psychic tank! Drive me closer I want to hit them with my brain!

We already had that with the Vortimer Razorback and the Deimos-Lux psycannon armed Land Raider. Any vehicle with a psycannon is a psychic tank. 
 

1 hour ago, mecanojavi99 said:

Would be weird for the super elite chapter of Daemon hunters that is supposed to have top of the line tech to use the obsolete model of Dreadnaught that basic chapters have phased out.

 

If anything, they should be using Contemptor Dreadnaughts, mix it with the old GK dreadnaught and call it a Comtemptor Banisher.

I don't care. I think it looks cooler and I don't like how huge the Redemptor is. 

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Frankly, people need to chill out till we see points. There’s enough decent analysis on the changes and what it affects (auspex has done some good stuff there).

 

if marines go up 20% in points for example, that’ll add up and make a bigger difference.

 

they seem to be wanting to try and get factions feeling more like their respective lore now, but no, they were almost certainly not updating everyone at once. 
 

I suspect when eldar or dark eldar get done, we will see similar sweeping updates to both books too.

20% would be ridiculous 

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Toughness 6 Marine troops with 3 wounds and Str5, damage 2 weapons already existed and no one cared.

Hell, with access to a Heavy Bolter too. 

 

How quickly people forget the option was already there. 

2 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

GW stated the average marine list will be a few models smaller, so certainly not 20% by the sounds of it.

 

As they said, they won't be cranking up damage in other factions because it would undo the toughness increase (although I bet they will anyway).

 

They said they want marines to be standing up to 3-4 lesser soldiers at a time etc. That's the lore they want to make everyone fit, not the lore for the factions who are designed to die in droves.

 

I own a chaos marine army, just to point out there isn't pure bias here. I benefit from these changes, but I hate them. It's enough dissonance for me to think about giving it a break for a while.

Wanting to take a break because, not only will CSM get the same fixes for free BUT feel closer to lore, is quite the take. 

[Zebukkuk]

3 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Lol the Q&A:

 

"We always meant to make these units as Legends, we just haven't yet and introduced Proxies to be replaced soon."

 

Sure, always meant to. That's not backtracking at all. After all, making Legendary Proxies that will be obsolete soon because you're making Legends datasheets anyway was always the plan right?

 

What they meant is: They intended to move Firstborn to Legends last edition, but a bean counter at GW noticed how well the old kits were selling, so they decided to wait until 11th edition.

 

The Proxies maneuver guaranteed that any existing stock would be sold out.

 

Sorry to be cynical but this is very likely what happened.

[The Lost Son]

@Zebukkuk I'd taken it the other way as they were trying to slowly push them of stage never to be mentioned again until someone pointed out how well they sold which is why they were lumped with suppressors. 

In a completely unrelated point I'm going to see if I can nab a couple of devastator squads tomorrow before they vanish.

[Antarius]

To each their own, but I really don't get why marines being individually better makes other factions "npc factions". If marines as an army becomes overpowered, then yes, it'll be a problem (but since points are updated all the time these days, I suspect it won't be a problem for all that long), but them being individually more difficuly to kill doesn't make other factions irrelevant.

To my mind, it's about the specifics. I don't expect my termagants to easily take down marines and it would actually hurt my immersion much more if they did. If genestealers couldn't take out marines in close combat, it would be another matter. In any case, marine armies should be more elite than most other armies and I honestly don't get how that is controversial or somehow makes the other armies less playable.
I mean, even if you feel that e.g. your Tyranid swarm shouldn't be a swarm army on the tabletop, but be more elite, there's actually options for that.
If you feel that marines are too front and center and/or too many people play marines, well, we can't really control what appeals to other people, but I don't think having marines be less elite than they should be really solves that particular problem.

[Antarius]

7 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

I own a chaos marine army, just to point out there isn't pure bias here. I benefit from these changes, but I hate them. It's enough dissonance for me to think about giving it a break for a while.

I felt that way back when other people didn't take any actual CSM in their CSM armies, because they were too easy to kill and were only good for sitting on objectives anyway, so you might as well just take cultists, because they were cheaper and gave you a bigger wound pool. In SM armies it was scouts (who were actually more survivable too, because of their camo cloaks).
I still collected and painted my SM and CSM models, but playing them just felt silly, because they were so far from what they were supposed to be.
 

[Karhedron]

5 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Wanting to take a break because, not only will CSM get the same fixes for free BUT feel closer to lore, is quite the take. 

 

I don't know about free. My assumption is that there will be a MFM drop that will contain points changes for CSM and also for BA/DA/SW chapter-specific units.

[Mogger351]

6 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Hell, with access to a Heavy Bolter too. 

 

How quickly people forget the option was already there. 

Wanting to take a break because, not only will CSM get the same fixes for free BUT feel closer to lore, is quite the take. 

Well my chaos knights finding wardogs now receiving twice the volume of wounds from the most ubiquitous weapons in the game and the bigger knights being able to be linked at in 5s by intercessors doesn't feel very lore accurate.

 

Neither do my kroot who in their lore are deadly melee fighters known as a threat to a marine or an ork with their 2 melee attacks that now wound on 5s. Or that advanced tau weaponry and armour which the imperium feared and couldn't match the pace of development has been casually downgraded because, well it's not narrative for a line weapon to hurt a marine on more than a 4 apparently.

 

Yes heavy intercessors existed before, but as the exception. The "lore accuracy" element only applies to marines here.

[Craig]

I do think the changes to stat lines are long overdue. The seperation between nurgling -> t-shirt human -> superhuman in power armour has always been really jarring for me. That said this should have been implemented when the new edition started with an index reset to all armies rather than the .5 edition where some armies will wait years for a new codex to align them with the changes made. There's only so much point adjusting can accommodate and will end up with all armies going up in points when their codex is released. 

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

I don't know about free. My assumption is that there will be a MFM drop that will contain points changes for CSM and also for BA/DA/SW chapter-specific units.

I more meant there's gonna be a PDF update so there's no waiting around for the improved stats. 

[HeadlessCross]

17 minutes ago, Craig said:

I do think the changes to stat lines are long overdue. The seperation between nurgling -> t-shirt human -> superhuman in power armour has always been really jarring for me. That said this should have been implemented when the new edition started with an index reset to all armies rather than the .5 edition where some armies will wait years for a new codex to align them with the changes made. There's only so much point adjusting can accommodate and will end up with all armies going up in points when their codex is released. 

And frankly they should be messing with stats more. I want to see Exarchs at W3 or W4 to make them the mini HQs they should be. 

[SvenIronhand]

12 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Lol the Q&A:

 

"We always meant to make these units as Legends, we just haven't yet and introduced Proxies to be replaced soon."

 

Sure, always meant to. That's not backtracking at all. After all, making Legendary Proxies that will be obsolete soon because you're making Legends datasheets anyway was always the plan right? And certainly couldn't spend the time making Tactical Marines Legends when we have to prioritise the Hammerfall Bunker.

We did this song and dance with the Legacies PDF and it was just as exhausting then.

 

 

8 hours ago, Zebukkuk said:

What they meant is: They intended to move Firstborn to Legends last edition, but a bean counter at GW noticed how well the old kits were selling, so they decided to wait until 11th edition.

 

The Proxies maneuver guaranteed that any existing stock would be sold out.

 

Sorry to be cynical but this is very likely what happened.

Cynical or conspiracist?