Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[LostTemplar]

I think many of the problems with marines would be solved if they had a 2+ save. 

 

With the proliferation of AP -1 weapons, the 3+ saves often becomes a 4+ save. Making Marines 2+ (and Terminators 1+, since 1 always fails) would probably increase their resistance while keeping the rest of the stats more or less the same.

 

I feel that S5 and T5 are good increases though.

[Blindhamster]

8 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

20% would be ridiculous 

Kind of my point. People are gnashing and wailing when we have only part of the picture. Anyone saying it’s oppressive to play against must have a Time Machine

[Marshal Reinhard]

There's no possible imbalance of stats from a stat change if the accompanying point cost change accurately addresses the change.

[Mogger351]

23 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Kind of my point. People are gnashing and wailing when we have only part of the picture. Anyone saying it’s oppressive to play against must have a Time Machine

Given I'm the main voice against this in here it's likely aimed at me. At no point have I used the word oppressive I don't believe amd nobody else has.

 

I've pointed out it's dissapointing/narratively jarring/unfun as a concept. But not oppressive.

2 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

There's no possible imbalance of stats from a stat change if the accompanying point cost change accurately addresses the change.

I fail to see how it can really.

[Jukkiz]

12 hours ago, mecanojavi99 said:

Would be weird for the super elite chapter of Daemon hunters that is supposed to have top of the line tech to use the obsolete model of Dreadnaught that basic chapters have phased out.

 

If anything, they should be using Contemptor Dreadnaughts, mix it with the old GK dreadnaught and call it a Comtemptor Banisher.

"top of the line tech" might be... lil quirky 

[Captain Idaho]

2 hours ago, SvenIronhand said:

We did this song and dance with the Legacies PDF and it was just as exhausting then.

 

I think you misunderstood my post. I was mocking the obvious lies from Games Workshop to cover the rolling back of their creation of Legendary Proxies.

 

A lie down might be needed if you're tired 

[Mmmmm Napalm]

the poses for the multipart Vanguard Vets are rather disappointing compared to those in monopose Armageddon set, which were more varied. I much prefer some being on the ground, some in the air, than all of them in very similar jumping poses. 19 heads is nice though, and I appreciate that they have axes as well. I think the lack of lightning claws is very unfortunate.

 

As for the intercessors 2.0 multipart, I find it to be rather lacklustre as well. Not that it's bad, but much of the variation seen in the preview miniatures is present in the Armageddon monopose squad (though they lack the diversity of bolter magazines). I do like that the studs on the mk. VI pauldron are little larger, like those in the HH mk vi and Red Corsairs kits. I was pleasantly surprised to discover that the kit features 10 unique poses (so presumably three sprues versus 2 sets of 2 like previous 10 man infantry kits, including the previous intercessor multiparts).

 

I'm looking forward to a look at the sprues for each of these kits.

Edited 8 hours ago by Mmmmm Napalm

[Emperor Ming]

Funny, we didn't need all this power creep back in the day

 

 

Maybe if everything wasn't s100, ap100  and does 10 d6 damage

 

ok slight exaggeration, but you get the point

[Blindhamster]

I’ve felt the spread of stats needed to happen for a long time personally, I think we will see similar elsewhere too as the various books come out, with point adjustments to fit

[redmapa]

The next few months will probably be a bit rough for everyone thats not getting a codex this year but I think everyone should calm down a bit, marines getting a buff isnt the end of the world and historically they have ALWAYS been left in the lower mid range in terms of power as soon as everyone else gets their book and the first few codices lose their shine. So its not the end of the world, its just another edition and the power creep will continue, the real winners are always the armies that get their books in the middle of an edition.

 

I hope marines do feel a bit more chunky and elite because the success of this idea will give me a bit of hope of that same design principle being a success in other armies, like Im curious what theyre gonna do with Guard and how they will fare before their book comes out.

[Dr. Clock]

1 hour ago, redmapa said:

how they will fare before their book comes out.

The shift to S/T5 does very little to units that were wounding marines on 5s already anyway, and between Gravis and Possessed units, to say nothing of Custodes and Death Guard, lots of armies were already bringing 'anti-elite-marine' tech in larger amounts than your basic anti-MEQ stuff. Also I'd expect this will make Combined Arms that much more of a lock since stonks on Lethal will signficantly improve as well.  

 

The change is going to shift things, certainly, but to my eye the biggest casualties will be anything currently S4, and even your S5 stuff you're often gonna want to remodel to higher S alternatives if possible. 

 

I do like the idea of 'more elite, more points' Marines across the board tho in principle, not least because it will make every bullseye from a lasgun that much more satisfying tho lol.

 

Thinking about biggest impacts, I'm a little concerned about what a substantial increase to Berzerker points is going to mean for my WE when I can't take small squads of them at all. 10 of them is quite respectable at 160 right now, but am I expecting them to jump to like... 200? And then the 8Bound also back up to... 150? I would understand and be okay with it if I could just drop 5 marines from the Invocatus bodyguard or some such, but this is gonna throw me into more substantial rewrite territory, I fear. Plz GW, let me take MSU Zerks at 100pts and you can even give them a 20-pt stepper for units 4-6, and I'll be okay with that calculus.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Dr. Clock

[Dried]

3 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Funny, we didn't need all this power creep back in the day

 

 

Maybe if everything wasn't s100, ap100  and does 10 d6 damage

 

ok slight exaggeration, but you get the point

Back in the day when Marines were T3?

Or back in the day where they were T4?

[HeadlessCross]

5 hours ago, LostTemplar said:

I think many of the problems with marines would be solved if they had a 2+ save. 

 

With the proliferation of AP -1 weapons, the 3+ saves often becomes a 4+ save. Making Marines 2+ (and Terminators 1+, since 1 always fails) would probably increase their resistance while keeping the rest of the stats more or less the same.

 

I feel that S5 and T5 are good increases though.

Something something.......this is why we should move to D12 despite everyone thinking change is scary......something something. 

3 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Funny, we didn't need all this power creep back in the day

 

 

Maybe if everything wasn't s100, ap100  and does 10 d6 damage

 

ok slight exaggeration, but you get the point

Of course you didn't notice power creep or imbalance, codices were released at a much slower pace and less people were online and able to point out the faults in how badly balanced early editions were. 

[Blindhamster]

1 minute ago, HeadlessCross said:

Something something.......this is why we should move to D12 despite everyone thinking change is scary......something something. 

I've wanted d10 or d12 to be the norm for 40k for well over a decade now. It won't happen.

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, Dr. Clock said:

Thinking about biggest impacts, I'm a little concerned about what a substantial increase to Berzerker points is going to mean for my WE when I can't take small squads of them at all. 10 of them is quite respectable at 160 right now, but am I expecting them to jump to like... 200? And then the 8Bound also back up to... 150? I would understand and be okay with it if I could just drop 5 marines from the Invocatus bodyguard or some such, but this is gonna throw me into more substantial rewrite territory, I fear. Plz GW, let me take MSU Zerks at 100pts and you can even give them a 20-pt stepper for units 4-6, and I'll be okay with that calculus.

 

If the other cult Marines are anything to go by 5 man Squads of your battleline are gonna be more expensive, not less.

 

That said, the points impact of this is the main thing I'm dreading as a TSons player who's watched the only viable way to play our army continuously rise because GW thinks it's weird the Psychic Marine faction wants to put Psychic Marines in our lists rather than half an AoS army.

[Mogger351]

33 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

If the other cult Marines are anything to go by 5 man Squads of your battleline are gonna be more expensive, not less.

 

That said, the points impact of this is the main thing I'm dreading as a TSons player who's watched the only viable way to play our army continuously rise because GW thinks it's weird the Psychic Marine faction wants to put Psychic Marines in our lists rather than half an AoS army.

Are the gors still S/T4? If so that makes a little more sense now in the new scale at least.

[Zebukkuk]

7 hours ago, SvenIronhand said:

Cynical or conspiracist?

 

What? It’s just business. GW really wanted to drop Firstborn a long time ago but they knew fans would be upset, so they waited *three* editions to drop the hammer.

 

If I had an aging product line that was still selling well I would likely do the same thing. This is not an evil plot for galactic dominion.  

[jaxom]

9 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

Well my chaos knights finding wardogs now receiving twice the volume of wounds from the most ubiquitous weapons in the game and the bigger knights being able to be linked at in 5s by intercessors doesn't feel very lore accurate.

I don't know about lore. I really like Intercessors and the idea of mass precision volleys taking advantage of weak points or armor cracks from krak grenade launchers makes me happy.

[Indy Techwisp]

12 minutes ago, Zebukkuk said:

What? It’s just business. GW really wanted to drop Firstborn a long time ago but they knew fans would be upset, so they waited *three* editions to drop the hammer.

 

If I had an aging product line that was still selling well I would likely do the same thing. This is not an evil plot for galactic dominion.  

 

Anytime I hear people saying that the firstborn stuff was still "selling well" I really wish we could see the actual sales numbers for these products.

[Mogger351]

12 minutes ago, jaxom said:

I don't know about lore. I really like Intercessors and the idea of mass precision volleys taking advantage of weak points or armor cracks from krak grenade launchers makes me happy.

I mean the game doesnt require damage from the krak at all to accomplish that, you can just faceplant chainswords in with a 1/3 chance to wound now.

[Mazer Rackham]

25 minutes ago, Zebukkuk said:

This is not an evil plot for galactic dominion.  

 

You're, uh, speaking for yourself there.

 

*Gets back to Huron Blackheart's Life Hacks: Vol 23*

 

[Halandaar]

5 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

I’ve felt the spread of stats needed to happen for a long time personally, I think we will see similar elsewhere too as the various books come out, with point adjustments to fit

 

Agree, I think the game could stand to strip out a few of its special rules and have the factions/units differentiated more at the statline level.

 

There was a small move towards this a few editions back (8th maybe? I've already forgotten, it was whenever Marines went up to 2 attacks) with stuff like Orks getting a point of toughness, but it was always hamstrung slightly by stats capping out at 10. Now that the cap has been gone for a bit, it makes sense to see more movement in the stats of the units.

[01RTB01]

The system is also hamstrung by d6 system but that isn't going to change sadly. 

[Dr. Clock]

2 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

If the other cult Marines are anything to go by 5 man Squads of your battleline are gonna be more expensive, not less.

Sure! I just want to be able to take a 5-man at all again, and I think this is the time to do it. I'm okay with an extra 1-2 points per guy if it means I have a 'basic marine' unit available at closer to 5% of a list than 10% per marine squad. The extra points on the 5-man data-sheets are also usually warranted by the champions having special kit in other marines lists as well, whereas WE would only be up 1 plasma pistol on 2x5 Zerks vs taking a 10 mob... But I'd still be fine with paying a 5-10 point premium on the small squads if it means I can squeeze more marines into my... marines list, as you say. I personally identify more as a Daemonforge player though, so I'm mostly just trying to hold on to that half of the list without losing my screen as well. Assuming an overall 10% points rise, I think the answer currently will be to drop the Daemon Prince (except when I occasionally play an Icons list and run three with 60 jakhals and no marines in a few months).

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.