More Space marine units going to Legends

[Lord Marshal]

13 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

It took 9 years. Every argument was made. Every counter was made. Hard to accurately gauge the most prevailing opinions without hard data.

 

I think it's one of those situations where the online discourse surrounding it gave an extremely disproportionate voice to the anti-Primaris side versus how many people either liked them or didn't give enough of a damn to care. Hell, how many people loudly insisting GW will never get any money from them again if they squat Firstborn are now sat on 3000pts+ of Primaris? Everybody saw the writing on the wall and the desire to play with a 'legal' (non-Legends) Marine army has outweighed the number of people sticking to their guns by a huge margin.

 

In my anecdotal experience, once 9th edition hit and people had three years to understand where this was heading, I almost never saw Firstborn models unless it was a vehicle somebody had from prior to 8th edition or it was a tournament game where a Firstborn unit being good outweighed the foreknowledge it was going to be binned off sooner rather than later (and even that was rare).

 

There's no hard data, but GW like their money more than anything else, and if Primaris were a failure of sales or marketing (especially in an era of 'memberberries) we'd have seen the new Intercessors instead be a true Tactical Squad rather than 8th edition Intercessors just with a couple of helmets, pauldrons and a backbanner tossed in. 

 

I don't have any skin in the 40k Marine game though, so this is just an observation of mine rather than falling down on one side or the other (I do dislike their lore though).

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Lord Marshal

[nodnol88]

Even as a Marine player I don’t have any skin in this game. I left the hobby as a youngster and when I returned I could see the writing on the wall with the Firstborn so never invested in them. 
 

If the rumours are true on a new Rhino and Landraider, then it wouldn’t surprise me if in a few years we get replacements for the tanks being sent to legends anyway, and maybe a streamlining of the range. 
 

This needed to happen though. I think the biggest loss is actually the loss of weapon variety, particularly with the Devastator Squad. Where are the Primaris Grav weapons (Techmarine aside), or bigger version of Neo-Vulkite? 
 

A lot of the retired units already have rough approximations in the newer kits, like Impulsors for Razorbacks and Gladiators for Predators, but there’s now a hole for a new Primaris flyer, siege tank and artillery tank. 
 

Valrak colloquially referred to this edition as a fast attack edition, so I wonder if next edition is the heavy armour edition. The second wave for 11th could be the Rhino and Landraider refresh and then 12th can introduce the new whatever to fill the gaps. 
 

 

[Orange Knight]

I would argue that a Siege Tank like the Vindicator has no place in a Marine Chapter, and belongs more in a Marine Legion.

A Siege Tank camping outside the walls doesn't play to the shock and awe, lightning assault that the Chapters are built around, although I don't feel so strongly about it that I see it as a real negative.

 

Now that the codex is cleaned up, I would like to see some exciting new units in the future. More gravis variants, more phobos variants etc, and of course - more chapter specific units across the board to make each chapter more distinctive. Give the White Scars jet bikes like the one used by their character, for example.

[Evil Eye]

27 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I would argue that a Siege Tank like the Vindicator has no place in a Marine Chapter, and belongs more in a Marine Legion.

...What? The Vindicator has been a mainstay of the Astartes vehicle fleet for most of 40K's lifespan. It certainly has more business in the Codex than the various Aspect Marines or the vile excuses for grav-tanks we're stuck with now.

[Mogger351]

Please don't rehash the old stuff good/bad vs new stuff good/bad cycle again.

[Jukkiz]

GW could easily keep og vanguard, sternguard, devastators, assault and tacticals boxes out for all the useful bits they have that CAN still be used with primaris. But nooo, lets primarinade everything so they can IP and name lock their silly ideas and slowly trickle maybe couple useful extra bits around

[FarFromSam]

Luckily primaris tanks are there to buy instead of rhino chasis visuals.  And they have the iconic marine stubbers!  And boring predators only have like 4 guns, these have 5!  And what mainline battle tank doesnt need like ... 4 JET ENGINES?    Oh, and in the decaying imperium of the 41st millennium what heavy battle tank shouldnt.... fly?  My dads tank can totally beat up your dads tank.

 

In a few years maybe theyll retire these and we'll get tanks that can fly into the sun and fight on lava land or somethin.  

[Marshal Reinhard]

21 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I just realized, that since any and all devestators are desolation squads now... you could technically swap all guns on the desolation squad with the guns from a devastator kit now, and you'd not even have to explain the proxy.

Someone else apparently had the same thought: (or well, made primaris sized devestators that are now a desolation squad):

 

Courtesy of this instagram account: https://www.instagram.com/p/Dcb6tm_jXLI/?igsi=bHQ0YzNvcGZzMm0z

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Marshal Reinhard

[Tastyfish]

42 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I would argue that a Siege Tank like the Vindicator has no place in a Marine Chapter, and belongs more in a Marine Legion.

A Siege Tank camping outside the walls doesn't play to the shock and awe, lightning assault that the Chapters are built around, although I don't feel so strongly about it that I see it as a real negative.

 

Now that the codex is cleaned up, I would like to see some exciting new units in the future. More gravis variants, more phobos variants etc, and of course - more chapter specific units across the board to make each chapter more distinctive. Give the White Scars jet bikes like the one used by their character, for example.

 

Don't think of it as a 'siege tank' but instead a breaching tool. Can't easily drop pod into some fortifications, so send a door kicker down to smash a hole then drop marines to surge through the breach.

[Crimson Longinus]

9 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

 

Don't think of it as a 'siege tank' but instead a breaching tool. Can't easily drop pod into some fortifications, so send a door kicker down to smash a hole then drop marines to surge through the breach.

 

Exactly this. Vindicator and Stormtalon are the two units from my active marine army that will be affected by this, and the vindicator will be sorely missed. It just has an iconic look and has been a MVP in many games. 

[Mogger351]

Just now, Crimson Longinus said:

 

Exactly this. Vindicator and Stormtalon are the two units from my active marine army that will be affected by this, and the vindicator will be sorely missed. It just has an iconic look and has been a MVP in many games. 

You can still use it outside of tournaments, in lists you build in the app, fully supported.

 

If we're talking competitive use then builds changing and swapping units is expected.

[ChargingSoll]

Yo people they just edited the dreadnought in now aswell to the list of legends. 

 

They have no mercy for survivors.

[Firedrake Cordova]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I would argue that a Siege Tank like the Vindicator has no place in a Marine Chapter, and belongs more in a Marine Legion.

A Siege Tank camping outside the walls doesn't play to the shock and awe, lightning assault that the Chapters are built around

Whilst some Chapters very much do specialise in lightning assaults, it's probably inaccurate to say it is the only form of engagement employed by the Space Marines as a whole. I might be misremembering, but I seem to remember when the mixed metal and plastic Vindicator kit was introduced way back in WD 231, it was described more as an assault tank, used for dealing with hard points and urban assaults where extreme short-ranged firepower was required.

[nodnol88]

The Rhino has “Last Chance To Buy” on the UK site.

 

Refresh coming sooner rather than later? 

[phandaal]

4 minutes ago, Firedrake Cordova said:

Whilst some Chapters very much do specialise in lightning assaults, it's probably inaccurate to say it is the only form of engagement employed by the Space Marines as a whole. I might be misremembering, but I seem to remember when the mixed metal and plastic Vindicator kit was introduced way back in WD 231, it was described more as an assault tank, used for dealing with hard points and urban assaults where extreme short-ranged firepower was required.

 

Many chapters are explicitly heavy metal enthusiasts, yeah. Imperial Fists are big fans of their Vindicators, and other chapters like the Aurora Chapter make heavy use of all different kinds of armor. Chapters have also been noted to typically have about a dozen Vindicators apiece on average for the last 20+ years.

[Orange Knight]

13 minutes ago, nodnol88 said:

The Rhino has “Last Chance To Buy” on the UK site.

 

Refresh coming sooner rather than later? 

 

New kit or a re-boxing. They might be removing the Razorback bits from the box.

[Mazer Rackham]

17 minutes ago, nodnol88 said:

Refresh coming sooner rather than later? 

 

Just confirmed, new Rhino variant transport leaked:

 

Mk III 'Mehtul Bawkses'

 

Spoiler

 

 

[mecanojavi99]

I can totally see a new artillery tank that is literally a version of the Impulsor with an even bigger missile launcher array that could double as AA.

[Xirix]

1 hour ago, ChargingSoll said:

Yo people they just edited the dreadnought in now aswell to the list of legends. 

 

They have no mercy for survivors.

Dreadnought though, not Venerable. The Dreadnought model's already been gone for a while.

[FarFromSam]

Oof, losing the regular dreadnought is a shame, but between the two it makes sense if most dreadnoughts are venerable i guess.  Would appreciate an upsized ferrum.  The remptor looks pretty cool, i can't think of a dreadnought i don't like. 

 

Checked.   I thought the floating tanks had the fly key word... what's the point of floating tanks with jet engines?   Other than to look like  children's saturday cartoon slop that is?

Edited 4 hours ago by FarFromSam
Got off topic, sorry.

[Evil Eye]

4 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

Please don't rehash the old stuff good/bad vs new stuff good/bad cycle again.

"Old good new bad"-posting will continue until the new stuff stops being bad.

[Lathe Biosas]

11 minutes ago, FarFromSam said:

Checked.   I thought the floating tanks had the fly key word... what's the point of floating tanks with jet engines?   Other than to look like  children's saturday cartoon slop that is?

 

Only the Flying Tanks of the Custodes have FLY... which is really strange to me.

[Evil Eye]

1 minute ago, Lathe Biosas said:

 

Only the Flying Tanks of the Custodes have FLY... which is really strange to me.

Fluffwise I was under the impression it was because the grav-tanks are so damn heavy that the grav-repulsion tech (which is very crude compared to Custodes vehicles and works more like a sort of brute force gravity-thruster, hence pancaking anything that gets caught underneath it) is only just able to lift them off the ground. Crunchwise I guess it's for balance. I don't mind as it means you can convert/proxy them with tracks and it won't lead to silly "How the feth does that work!?" moments.

[phandaal]

10 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Fluffwise I was under the impression it was because the grav-tanks are so damn heavy that the grav-repulsion tech (which is very crude compared to Custodes vehicles and works more like a sort of brute force gravity-thruster, hence pancaking anything that gets caught underneath it) is only just able to lift them off the ground. Crunchwise I guess it's for balance. I don't mind as it means you can convert/proxy them with tracks and it won't lead to silly "How the feth does that work!?" moments.

 

This has come up every now and again due to various depictions of those grav tanks in lore. The bottom line is they do not behave in a manner consistent with any kind of modern-day tech equivalents like hovercrafts or even with existing 40k tech like the grav plates on a Speeder.

 

The lore depicts them doing what seems cool in any given scene. The rules make them do whatever the rules people feel is appropriate on the table. It won't map back neatly to any consistent depiction of the tech or any kind of analogous 21st century machine.

[LSM]

47 minutes ago, FarFromSam said:

Checked.   I thought the floating tanks had the fly key word... what's the point of floating tanks with jet engines?   Other than to look like  children's saturday cartoon slop that is?

 

IIRC, Repulsors and Impulsors originally had [Fly] in 8th, but lost it in... 9th?