11th Edition Codex Discussion

[jaxom]

Roboute Guilliman

• Primarch-level statline.
• Movement tricks from constantly being in all three Combat Doctrines (CDs). Can't be tar-pitted, can leave bad match-ups. Opponents have to be wary of possible 26" (27"?) melee threat range; 18" is more average.
• Versatile and hard-hitting combat options.
• Aura re-roll 1s to hit and wound is only way to get those re-rolls for many units.
• Can put one unit into any Combat Doctrine and it stacks with other sources of CDs. The stacking could be useful on something like a Redemptor Dreadnought or Aggressors to gain Assault and Advance+Charge on the same turn.
• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• Might be an auto-take if the points are right.

 

Marneus Calgar

• Movement tricks from constantly being in all three Combat Doctrines (CDs). Possibly more useful than Guilliman because Calgar can lead units. We've seen what Calgar and hit unit of choice can do with Advance+Charge in many 10th ed Stormlance lists.
• Still hits like truck. Twin-linked is more valuable now. I choose to reframe the Extra Attack as an uppercut.
• Can pick a unit within 9" (kind of an odd value, but I guess a 24" bubble was too large while an 18" bubble was seen as good) to be in a CD. Useful for turns when not using a CD or if you want a unit in a different CD than the rest of the army. If your plan is Calgar+Unit and one other Go-Unit, this lets you avoid needing a Captain or other thing which can hotswap Doctrines.
• Can choose one non-Terminator unit to Deep Strike. We saw how useful this can be with Uriel Ventris. Eradicators, Sternguard, or a good Torrent unit Deep Striking 8" from something has a lot of possibilities.
• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• No native Feel No Pain.
• Probably an auto-take for Ultramarine players.

 

Tigurius

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord. Unusual for a Librarian-type.
• Storm of the Emperor's Wrath psychic shooting is reliable with D3+6 attacks and always -2AP and 2D.
• Rod of Tigurius is okay as a Str 7 force weapon. Useful breakpoint against Gravis, Plague Marines, Custodes.
• Hood of Hellfire is a psychic hood that also works against Mortal Wounds. Could be useful in the right meta environment.
• The 1/6 chance of being Battle-shocked is a serious downside if you want to use both psychic powers in the same turn.
• +1 Sv for your unit has some interesting possibilities and is almost always useful.
• 24" 2D3 Mortal Wounds can be useful to snipe Characters whose units have died or to get rid of the 1-3 survivors of shooting.
• There are probably more useful and/or reliable options.

 

 

Cato Sicarius

• Becomes Support if Calgar is in your army. This creates an interesting dynamic where he could be in Calgar's unit or more interestingly,  possibly in a unit with a different Character. It will be enlightening to find out what other Characters can Lead Victrix Guard.
• Gives a 6" reactive move when an enemy unit gets within 8" during the Movement phase. I think we all know how useful this can be,
• Further positioning jank with -1CP when using Heroic Intervention. Notably, still prevents other units from using the Stratagem.
• 2 of 3 melee profile options are more useful into other Marine-esque armies.

 

Titus

• A blender of GEQ and MEQ.
• Gives Bodyguard unit Sustained Hits 1:non-Monster/Vehicle. The stipulation goes away when Assault Doctrine is active for the unit (wave hi, Calgar).
• Heals once per battle and has 2+ Fight on Death. Might be worth running on his own depending on points.
• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.

 

Wardens of Ultramar

• Now with ObSec at end of Movement phase.
• 3 unit redeploy, always useful.
• Abilities are not associated with specific models in the unit (I guess someone picks of the banner or starts working the Strategium if Gadriel or what's-her-name go down).
• Still an annoying assortment of statlines and weapons (interesting design choice - Gadriel's bolt rifle has the same firing options as Intercessors).
• Support - add 20 wounds to another unit.

 

Victrix Honor Guard

• Ancient and Champion are now Epic Heroes and "add a body" upgrades to the unit. Normal unit size is 1-6 Victrix Guard models.
• Still has surge move when one or models are destroyed during shooting phase.
• Ranged weapons are now Str 5 to mirror bolters/bolt rifles.
• Blades of Honour (Champion melee) now Str 6 to keep wounding MEQ on 3+.
• MC Power Weapons are still Str 5, not so good into MEQ and TEQ. Though...
• ...Banner of Macragge still has once per battle +1A and +1S. Also now gives ObSec, so that's fun.
• The -1 to wound rolls no longer requires a Character in the unit.
• I expect tournaments will see a lot of 1 Victrix unit with both Epic Hero upgrades, Calgar, and Konorius; 1 Victrix unit with Sicarius and a Leader (if possible), and then depending on points a 1 Victrix unit with no Characters.

 

Kaius Konorius

• Gives Feel No Pain 4+ to other Character models in his unit (wave hi, Calgar).
• Has WS 2+ and re-rolls 1s to hit (and wound) against Character units.
• Wrecks face against T5 or less Characters. Slightly less against T6-9 Characters. Precision attack option is 5A S10 AP3 3D.
• The Sweep option is good too (particularly against Character units if you want to wipe the Bodyguard first).  6A with Cleave 2, so 7A against 5-person unit and those are Str 6 (a good breakpoint now especially re-rolling 1s to wound) AP3 2D.

 

Ultramarines still have a great roster of unique characters to choose from. Tigurius is the only one that I don't see having an obvious place in a list.

 

Next post: the other Chapter-characters.

[jaxom]

Darnath Lysander

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• Optimal targets for his melee profile are now power armoured elites; think Chosen, Bladeguard, anything T5 and 3W.
• -1 to hit rolls against unit, along with Ancient in Terminator Armour (the old Transhuman Toughness) plus possible Armour of Contempt or -1D strategem would make a nasty Terminator unit to shift.
• Reliant on army CD for movement tricks.

Tor Garadon

• Hand of Defiance hits like a truck, especially against Monster/Vehicles (effective Str 14 AP4 4D).
• Unless errata'd, Signum permanently removes a unit's ability to benefit from cover.
• If not noticeably more expensive, could be worth taking over a Gravis Captain, particularly with Eradicators. The downside is losing the very useful ability of putting a Gravis Bodyguard unit into any CD.

Aethon Shaan

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• A blender of MEQ. Sustained Hits 2 is now :non-Monster/Vehicle.
• Master of Shadows jank is gone. Now you pick any friendly Astartes unit to re-roll charge roll until next Command phase.
• Blackwing Mantle staid the same.
• Reliant on army CD for other movement tricks.
• Still really good, but not the terror he was.

Kayvaan Shrike

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• Lone Op and then Stealth and -3" detection range when anyone gets close enough.
• Remains quite useful because of ability to enter strategic reserves if unengaged at end of opponent's fight phase.
• Good melee against MEQ, twin-linked helping overcome Str 5. Precision too.

Vulkan He'stan

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• Feel No Pain 6+.
• Gauntlet of the Forge is reliable against GEQ with D6+3A Torrent Str 6 AP1 1D. It has Close-Quarters *cackles maniacally in the tar pit*.
• Spear got a break point increase againt Gravis, Terminators, Deathguard, and Custodes; went from Str6 to Str 7.
• Forgefather no longer gives re-rolls, but an effective +1 to wound roll by giving +2Str.
• Still ridiculous when on his objective of choice, all that is unchanged but more useful considering the 11th ed nature of objectives.
• No longer gives additional OC to Infernus Squads, but they greatly benefit (in action-ability) from his detachment rule.
• Very much still has a place in an army with a lot of Torrent and Melta weapons.

Adrax Agatone

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• No CD manipulation, would benefit from Assault Brethren because of rare unit's melee attacks re-roll all wound rolls in Assault Doctrine. Otherwise just re-roll 1s to wound.
• -1 enemy OC when engaged; I see possibilities with Reivers.
• Malleus Noctum still great. Str10 AP2 D3, but there are ways to get additional AP and the wound re-rolls help against T6 and greater targets.
• Still combos well with Assault Intercessors and Bladeguard. I think it depends on how you want to use him, and thus the Ancient type you can add to the squad. Or an Apothecary....

Caanok Var

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• Axiom no longer sweeps, but has Cleave 1 and AP3. No break point increase, still Str 8.
• Cold and Calculating combos well with Assault Terminator unit ability, but most benefits tactical Terminator unit who shoot and melee.
• Cerebrex Logic Engine only gives Scouts 6" to one unit, no more reposition too.
• Hopefully points will go down.

Iron Father Feirros

• You're still taking him to buff and heal your tanks.
• He's still remarkably damaging in melee.
• Gives old Transhuman Toughness to his unit.

Kor'sarro Khan

• The glow up is real, relative to changes in other parts of the codex.
• 2 anti-infantry 2+ devastating wounds close quarters BS3+ D2 attacks, also effectively Assault.
• Moonfang is Anti-Character 5+ Devastating Wounds Precision with WS2+ 6A and D2.
• His unit re-rolls hits of 1 and wounds of 1 against Character units. No fishing for 5+ to wound, but gives a real nice chance of it happening anyway.
• Has Str6 for good breakpoints against non-Character units, but why are you attack non-Character units?
• Unit gains Assault for ranged attacks and Lance for melee attacks.
• Combos real good with a Lieutenant and a Captain (more on this when I end up talking about combos).

Suboden Khan

• Now T6 like other bike units.
• Onslaught Gatling Cannon more targeted to its purpose; only DevWounds against non-Monster/Vehicle.
• Spear got a breakpoint increase from Str6 to Str7 and is now AP3. Power sword no longer a separate attack profile, but provides 3 attacks with Su:cuss:s 1:non-Monster/Vehicle. He won't be wiping 1W squads alone anymore.
• Unit has Assault for ranged attacks. Bit of a boondoggle because Outrider bolt weapons are Assault. Benefits any plasma pistols in the unit *shrug*.
• Unit has Advance+Charge, but is not in Assault Doctrine (for purposes of stratagems and other things which get a boost in Assault Doctrine). If in Assault Doctrine, +1 Advance and Charge rolls.
• Unit has Mobile, which effectively is the same as the old Skilled Riders.
• Still really good as a lone missile unit against MSU MEQ and certain no-InvulSave Monster/Vehicle profiles.
• Still excellent with Outriders, who give him +1D (goes from 2D to 3D) and Su:cuss:s 1 when they charge, and he gives them Advance+Charge and Mobile.

That't it for now. My next post will be Captains but that won't be for at least 15 hours.

[Tacitus]

Where did you find them? 

[jaxom]

There was post in the Rumors discussion leading to a Reddit post with it.

[Indy Techwisp]

5 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Where did you find them? 

 

Entire Codex has leaked

[redmapa]

Well without the points or my army's rules Im very interested in Rhinos but that will depend on how much they cost, because I can see bringing two rhinos to sling units forward BUT if they are cheap enough I think 3-4 Rhinos with Crusader squads or assault intercessors could be an interesting alternative to Land Raiders, most of my lists were 3 Land Raiders so maybe I can swap one of them to bring 3 Rhinos if the points remain about the same.

 

It certainly wasnt a flashy release but there are some nuggets of fun here and there, the Gauntlet detachment looks like  good way to boost your infantry and you can sort of make a Command Land Raider, that seems fun.

[Prot]

One thing I'm wondering... is as I see the dataslates looking so good... really a massive upgrade for the faction. To me this is to compensate for the 'band aid' of Oath of Moment being torn off.  Now marines don't have (or need ) the damage band aid.

 

But the side effect is I wonder what (if any) motivation there is to play the vanilla marine code.... I mean if you think back to before Oath very few players (especially competitive) chose a Codex chapter because you got (nearly) all the units of the Codex compliant player, but you got your own cool 'chapter specific' stuff on top of it.

 

So I wonder if we're headed for that kind of era again? or is there a competitive reason to stick with a codex compliant chapter?

[jaxom]

43 minutes ago, Prot said:

But the side effect is I wonder what (if any) motivation there is to play the vanilla marine code.... I mean if you think back to before Oath very few players (especially competitive) chose a Codex chapter because you got (nearly) all the units of the Codex compliant player, but you got your own cool 'chapter specific' stuff on top of it.

 

So I wonder if we're headed for that kind of era again? or is there a competitive reason to stick with a codex compliant chapter?

Usual "professional tournament players will chase the most efficient options for what they want to do" caveat. Will the Supplements be just better? I don't know. Will they offer more options? Yes, unless one wants one or more Codex special characters. For example, if I want to run bikes, Dark Angels have more options unless I want to benefit from Suboden Khan. If I want to run jump packs, Blood Angels have more options unless I want to use Shaan or Shrike. Supplements will have more options for mixing detachments. However, Ravenguard are a good example of how a detachment and character can be better for a style of play than more unit and detachment options.

 

There aren't other Marine players around me. I spent the vast majority of 10th using only generic units. My lists were usually competitive and my opponents had to work to win when I lost (though I had trouble dealing with Custodes); I've about a 60% win rate for 10th ed. But all the big tournament coverage I watched with professional players looked nothing like how I build lists and they always had special characters and/or units in them. So if competitive is meant to be read as "wins tournaments" then I expect we'll still a lot of Named Chapters with Unique Units.

 

Note - this is based on an incomplete picture. We don't know what changes are going to happen to the Supplement chapters. If things stay relatively the same, then I feel okay sticking with all of the above.

[Tacitus]

14 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Entire Codex has leaked

Yeah but my google skills are counter intuitive in these situations because I get flooded by 10th Ed Leaks, and 9th Ed Leaks, I was hoping someone would just link. 

[Tacitus]

34 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Yeah but my google skills are counter intuitive in these situations because I get flooded by 10th Ed Leaks, and 9th Ed Leaks, I was hoping someone would just link. 

Terminator Strike Force has half the Aggressor Bomb already.  Find a way to give them Crits on a 5+ and the Bomb is back. 

 

Chaplains removing Battleshock + Librarians rolling 1's giving battleshock seems like it might see a lot of Chaplain/Libby wingmen setups. 

 

I lost my Guilliman immunity bubble with the changes to Phobos Libbies. 

 

The Apothecary Reductor Pistol change is weird but I don't think it actually changes much beyond very niche situations. 

 

Intercessors lost their super shooting, and some range on their bolt rifles, but gained Tactical Mainstay which looks pretty nice. 

 

Omni Scramblers also had a big change and both halves of Gulliman's immunity are gone. 

 

Outriders lost their ability to pack along an ATV.

 

Still sucks to be a Lightning Claw Terminator.  Most of the time.

 

ATV Tank Hunters have an interesting special rule.

 

I given all the non-monster/vehicle I see I wonder if Tau suits stay vehicles. 

 

 

Edited Friday at 09:25 PM by Tacitus

[jaxom]

16 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Terminator Strike Force has half the Aggressor Bomb already.  Find a way to give them Crits on a 5+ and the Bomb is back. 

Off the top of my head, nothing in the new codex can do that. A lot of the combos are gone, in favor of stronger datasheets. It is fairly easy to get Lethal Hits on Aggressors though.

[Tacitus]

19 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Off the top of my head, nothing in the new codex can do that. A lot of the combos are gone, in favor of stronger datasheets. It is fairly easy to get Lethal Hits on Aggressors though.

Yeah I'd have to spend some time looking at the enhancements and dets for sure, but I don't think its a priority I doubt they'd bring it back right after having to nerf it into the ground.  It was the 5+ Crit that made it work giving you more shots/hits on average after rolling than they had before rolling. 

[jaxom]

I just realised I left Transhuman Strategist out from the WS characters. Also abbreviating Sustained Hits resulted in the auto-filter 

 

Captain

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• Relatively unchanged - Finest Hour is +3A and DevWounds
• Strategic Acumen - Command phase to command phase, pick a doctrine for the unit. This gives the unit two extra turns of CD and flexibility on your army-wide use turns.
• MC power weapon got a breakpoint increase, or is just a renamed relic blade: 6A Str6 AP2 2D.

Captain with Jump Pack

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• Strategic Acumen with pretty obvious preference for Assault Doctrine and Tactical Doctrine, as needed.
• Relic weapon is the same as Captain's MC power weapon.
• +1 to Advance and Charge rolls. Nice, but I'll miss the Str bonus on charge.
• Thunder Hammers are now usually 3 damage, his is no exception.
• Thunder Hammer and Chainsword are still locked to the Relic Shield.
• Weapon choice matter more now, each has distinct targets of choice (power fist and thunder hammer overlap).
• You're going to pair him with Vanguard Veterans, just accept it.

Captain in Phobos Armour

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• Strategic Acumen, though has  Assault weapon and many Phobos units do too. Really only super useful for Assault Doctrine if he can join Reivers.
• Contrary to what I just wrote, goes okay with Infiltrators who don't have Assault and can heal him from Precision chip damage.
• Tactical Fluidity - Shoot-and-scoot D6" plus Fallback at end of opponent's Fight phase (so no need for Tactical Doctrine). A very nice ability in all Phobos units.

Captain in Terminator Armour

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• Strategic Acumen and all CD are useful. Terminators with DevDoctrine to get within Rapid Fire range, or even better 9" for shooting are a very real shooting threat against GEQ and MEQ-MSU. Assault Doctrine meanwhile makes a nice threat range extension to their melee optimal targets which are relatively unchanged.
• Gives re-roll Charge rolls to unit, great with Assault Doctrine.
• The Combi-weapon is just straight better than the Storm Bolter against most targets.
• Relic Fist is WS2+ power fist with one less attack than Relic Weapon, both AP2 2D. It'll come down to want you want to target (cough MEQ or New-stodes).

Captain in Gravis Armour

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• Strategic Acumen and all CD are useful. Aggressors with DevDoctrine to get within rance is nice. Assault Doctrine meanwhile makes a nice threat range extension to their melee optimal targets which are relatively unchanged. DevDoctrine and Tactical Doctrine also pair really well with Eradicators.
• Boltstorm Gauntlet is the same profile as Relic Fist.
• MC Heavy Bolt Rifle got breakpoint increase: BS2+ 2A Str6 AP1 3D. Has Heavy, useful against targets in cover.
• Refuse to Yield is the same, more useful now with the changes to Precision. I'd still rather have any of the other previous Captains' abilities.

Captain on Bike

• Transhuman Strategist - additional CP if Warlord.
• Strategic Acumen with pretty obvious preference for Assault Doctrine and Tactical Doctrine, as needed.
• Into the Fray: unit gains Cleave 1 if they made a charge move. Alone, this is okay to meh, depending on target. However, there's a combo with Outriders that make them much better into large units than you'd expect.
• MC power weapon has same stats as Relic Blade; you'll want it for the Outrider combo.
• You can grab the Thunder Hammer and run him with a Thunder Hammer Outrider Sergeant in an MSU for a missile at  smaller Thunder Hammer optimal targets.

Sometime in the future: Lieutenants (preview: they're very useful).