spyrer2000 Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 There's nothing wrong with Wulfen - I think they are great models. However, you really need to plump for the Wolf Priest to lead 'em or they become somewhat uncontrollable. Also, they don't have anything higher than Strength 5 (unless with the aforementioned HQ model), so your opponent can throw something at them they can't hurt to keep 'em away from his vulnerable units. A Chaos Dreadnought with all the trimmings can keep your Wulfen from doing much of anything most of the game for considerably less points. Just something to keep in mind if someone is considering dropping Storm Claws altogether in favor of Wulfen. Personally, I think they're like peanut butter & chocolate - two great tastes that taste great together. Just have both in your army. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 15, 2005 Author Share Posted January 15, 2005 - If you are willing to pay the extra points then the plasma cannon is superior to the missile launcher. S7 is also useful for glancing and even penetrating light armour. The plasma cannon is also great for killing tough units like terminators. Rarely do I find the extra 12 inches afforded by the missile launcher comes into play. IMO Space Wolves should not be fearful of things like overheating. I find it interesting that most players won't think twice about rapid-firing a plasma gun, but then are concerned about one shot from the plasma cannon. There are a lot of opinions on how to properly army the Long Fangs, and they are all valid. Lascannons and plasma cannons is by no means the best option. It is the most expensive though and also the most powerful. -MA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 15, 2005 Author Share Posted January 15, 2005 - For Wulfen as an elite choice I advocate one full squad lead by a Wolf Priest. Of course there will be times the opponent has something like a dreadnaught which can put a big dent in the path of the werewolves. This is where tactics come into play... such as teleporting beside the dreadnaught and blasting it to smithereens with all your nice shiney meltas. Tactics are what allows you to get the most out of each unit and avoid their potential downfalls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyrer2000 Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 I find it interesting that most players won't think twice about rapid-firing a plasma gun, but then are concerned about one shot from the plasma cannon. The thing is, it's not one shot - it's six shots in an average game. A plasma GUN has to get in range before you can fire it, that's one turn. You get to shoot once at long range (13"-24") on average, then 2-4 shots at 12" or less, then you're in assault or dead in the average Space Marine squad or Grey Slayer squad. The Plasma Cannon is firing once per turn, every turn on average for 6 shots, one of which, by average, will overheat. I'm sure someone with better math skills can run the numbers more comprehensively, but I think you understand my point. :) The missile launcher is clearly superior for MOST tasks in 40K - better range, better Strength, more versatile, costs less, doesn't overheat. In some limited instances, I agree it's better to go with the plasma cannon. I suppose I'll just chalk this one up as another playing style difference between us, MA. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyrer2000 Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Just something to keep in mind if someone is considering dropping Storm Claws altogether in favor of Wulfen. This right here is what I was talking about. Of COURSE tactics can overcome the drawbacks of any given unit - but it's wise not to lose out on the options available. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyrer2000 Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Here's a thought about the Lightning claws - MA has a good point, these things are super-deadly. I was thinking, though - why pay a premium for Lightning claws? 13th Company WGPL's can get 'em super-cheap at 20 points for a pair! A 13th Company WGPL with Mark of the Wulfen and Lightning Claws costs 71 points, a lot less than the Wolf Lord, and fights with only one less Attack! So, it would seem the best deal would be to kit out a WGPL with Lightning Claws and send him in with the Wolf Lord to wreak a similar kind of havoc. I'm curious to try this out myself and see how well it does... of course, the WGPL is striking at Init 4 instead of Init 5, and that can make a big difference. Hmm. Perhaps the Wolf Lord IS the best place for Lightning Claws, even if they aren't cheap. Hmmm... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 15, 2005 Author Share Posted January 15, 2005 - I typically see people take three missile launchers and a lascannon for their Long Fangs, or something quite similar. So this seems to be the most popular choice. If you take the cheaper weapons the biggest payoff IMO is that you have spared some points that could elsewhere in the army when the Long Fangs are killed. My Long Fangs rarely survive past the third turn. -MA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 15, 2005 Author Share Posted January 15, 2005 - My Wolf Lord is on a bike and has three bikers plus four wolves for his retinue. This is a small unit and cannot generate anything near the number of attacks as a full squad of Slayers or Claws on foot. I would rather arm the pack leader with a powerfist to make the squad more versatile. I don't take powerfists for the two bikers because generally they don't last long enough against hard units to be able to strike back. Invariably the Wolf Lord is the last one standing, so he always has the best potential for the most kills. That is why I give him the lightning claw as opposed to the pack leader. One thing I am not about is scrimping on points when it comes to wargear so I squeeze in a couple more Space Wolves. The Lost Company HQ are big and bad... giving them cool wargear fits the theme. Many players are taught to frugally spend their points on wargear. Some people even feel MotW is not worth the points because it is expensive. Like I said, that is not my style. If your aim is to save points then just say so. You don't need to justify to me why a missile launcher is better than a plasma cannon. :) -MA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 15, 2005 Author Share Posted January 15, 2005 -Fast Attack- Fast Attack is also fast to die. :) You have two choices - Fenrisian wolf packs and Storm Claw bikers. The wolf packs are a real deal because they are cheap and can serve a very useful purpose in the army. A squad of Storm Claw bikers is expensive for what you get, plus they are a small unit, can't dish out a lot of punishment, and will die quickly if pressed hard. Still a squad of Storm Claw bikers are very cool and fit in with the theme of the army. -Fenrisian Wolf Packs I don't use them but I have nothing bad to say about them. I would rather spend the points on more Space Wolves in power armour, but that is me. Two squads of ten Fenrisian wolves each costs a total of 200 points. That is quite cheap for this army. Because the wolves have fleet of paw plus the pre-game Scout move they are extremely fast and can engage the enemy in close combat the first turn. A full squad can also dish out a lot of attacks on the charge. They benefit from ATSKNF and have the same close combat characteristics as a Space Wolf. How can you argue with that? By cutting back on wargear and choosing the cheaper options for other units it is not hard to make room for at least one wolf pack. Here is the flip-side to wolf packs... they die quickly because of their terrible armour save. So if they don't make it into close combat they are not doing much for your army. However, because they are so fast they probably more often than not will reach close combat. If your opponent starts the game with all of his units embarked in vehicles the wolves may come running back with their tails between their legs. That should not be that case most often though. -Storm Claw Bikers Small, expensive, but very fast and they have access to power weapons, powerfists, and special weapons. I see them as best used when taken as a retinue for the Wolf Lord. As a retinue they can combine into one powerful unit that has more staying power. You can use the bikers as either a tank hunting unit or an assault squad. If you use them as a tank hunting unit then make sure to take two meltaguns and possibly even a pack leader with a combi-melta and powerfist/thunder hammer. This unit costs roughly the same as a squad of Long Fangs, plus they are far more versatile. The advantage that Long Fangs have over the bikers is range and LOS. As an asault squad they can do well against weak units such as Guardians but can end up in trouble if they try to tackle something large and mean. You can either throw them forward to quickly engage the enemy, or hold them back as a counter assault unit when that one extra charge makes all the difference. Next -> Wolf Lord Biker army Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The WarpGhost Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 A 13th Company WGPL with Mark of the Wulfen and Lightning Claws costs 71 points, a lot less than the Wolf Lord, and fights with only one less Attack! So, it would seem the best deal would be to kit out a WGPL with Lightning Claws and send him in with the Wolf Lord to wreak a similar kind of havoc. I'm curious to try this out myself and see how well it does... of course, the WGPL is striking at Init 4 instead of Init 5, and that can make a big difference. Hmm. Perhaps the Wolf Lord IS the best place for Lightning Claws, even if they aren't cheap. Hmmm... i use 2 LCs on pack leaders for Kill Team but in normal games the powerfist is just too useful to pass. @MA: well, i totally disagree on the plasma cannons; ive often found their shorter range a real problem, and apart from rare moments (ie when i killed 9 Immortals with 2 PCs in one go; ive yet to play an army with much in the way of transports) they arent hitting more than 1 model each. lascannons generally have them beat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 15, 2005 Author Share Posted January 15, 2005 - I wouldn't compare a plasma cannon with a lascannon. The lascannon is for tank busting and the plasma cannon is for troop killing. You can compare the missile launcher with a plasma cannon though. The plasma cannon has the missile launcher beat when used for troop killing since it is a S7 AP2 blast template... the frag round does not compare, except for its greater range. The missile launcher is better for tank busting, but only by one point of strength... however I take plasma cannons for troop killing. -MA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 16, 2005 Author Share Posted January 16, 2005 -Army Lists- Now I am going to briefly describe three styles of army lists that I have played. There are other ways to play the army and no one is the best. I think you should choose a style that fits you as both a general and hobbyist. The Lost Company offers many opportunities for the avid painter and converter. This is an army that can look great as well as win it fair share of battles. -Wolf Lord Biker This is the army list that I currently play and have been playing for over a year. It is based on a lot of experience on the table top. This is the army that I will be using for RTTs and GTs this year. :) Wolf Lord - MotW, Belt of Russ, combi-flamer, lightning claw, bike, frag grenades - 4xFenrisian wolves Storm Claw biker retinue - 2xFlamer WGPL - MotW, combi-flamer, powerfist Rune Priest - MotW, Tactical dreadnaught armour, combi-melta, Frost blade Wolf Priest - Wolf tooth necklace, Balms & healing potions, thunder hammer, frag grenades :elites: 15xWulfen :) 9xSlayer w. 2xMeltagun WGPL - MotW, thunder hammer, combi-melta (This pack leader is modeled to look like an Iron Priest, as I believe the Lost Company will need one. :)) 9xSlayer w. 2xPlasma gun WGPL - MotW, thunder hammer, combi-plasma, runic charm :heavy support: 4xLong Fangs w. 2xPlasma cannon & 2xLascannon Pack leader That is the entire list and consists of fifty models. There are three fast units - bikers, Wulfen, and the Rune Priest. Most people have not faced the Lost Company so your speed can really surprise them. If the opponent is not careful and sets up too close to the Wulfen then I can charge them the first turn. If the Wulfen can charge the first turn with full numbers then the game is won. Fifteen Wulfen plus the Wolf Priest, all hitting at I5 with their sheer number of attacks is simply overwhelming. I spread out the Wulfen so they can engage as many enemy units as possible. There have been times when they simultaneously charged three separate units. Often the squad of Slayers with plasma will setup beside the Long Fangs and create a solid firebase. The Rune Priest teleports with the other Slayer pack to destroy enemy tanks or shoot hard units such as terminators. Usually by Turn 2 the Wulfen can engage the enemy in close combat. I keep the bikers held back as a second wave for assaulting. The bikers can speed in and hit very hard. Often the squad of Slayers with plasma launch a third and final wave for assaulting. Should the Rune Priest survive the initial teleport anything else he accomplishes is just icing on the cake. I have played against some very good opponents with this army and done well. I feel it is the most competitive of the three I am describing. Some of my victories have come against the Iron Warriors and Lost and the Damned, both featuring two ordnance weapons apiece. I am daring with the Wulfen and Rune Priest (plus gating Slayers). You have to take some chances against good opponents that have a lot of firepower if you want a chance to win. I won't stick the Wulfen out to soak up tonnes of small arms fire, but I will move them out in front of ordnance (all spread out from each by two inches) if I know they will reach close combat the following turn. As I said earlier, if seven to eight Wulfen plus the Priest reach close combat they will get the job done. Mine have killed many a greater deamon, including the Great Unclean One. Play them as if they are Fearless and you will reap the rewards. Stcking it out there is find and dandy but it as just as important, if not moreso to hug cover! Never march mindlessly out into the open and soak up untold wounds. There was one game against a very Shooty Dark Angels army that I put all my Wulfen out in the open, hoping for an early charge. All the werewolves were shot down in their boots before they could issue back a single punch. It was a close game but that mistake cost me the victory and I learned my lesson. Go with prudence over luck. Next -> Slayers + Long Fangs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurgle infestation Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 i noticed the comments on how to use a rune priest b4so i thought i would share sum experience of their potential my best friend has 13th co. and uses a really annoying tactic against me... he takes a rune priest w/ all sorts of goodies (including a combi flamer) who then teleports in with a 8 strong devastator squad with either 4 meltaguns (he uses 2 army lists) or 4 flamers and 1 combi flamer (pack leader) . this squad lays down 6!!! templates and then charges the remains of the squad/ squads (when he has 2 targets he doesnt fire his packleader and fires at both units) this has ruined my tactics in one turn b4 i could counter it... so there are other ways to use rune priests my two cents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyrer2000 Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 First turn charges with Wulfen can be extremely difficult. Only one standard mission sets up models closer than 24" apart - Cleanse (and even then, models must be more than 18" apart). The only real hope of a first turn charge with Wulfen is an opponent who moves directly towards them in his own Movement Phase if he wins the first turn. I'm not so sure I'd want to count on that. By contrast, Fenrisian Wolves can get a first turn charge nearly any time they want. I think only a foolish opponent would head directly towards such a huge unit of Wulfen and put himself in that kind of situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 16, 2005 Author Share Posted January 16, 2005 - I have had my fair share of charges on the first turn with Wulfen. My local group has been known been known to use missions other than those provided in the rulebook. One of my favourites is Fist Fight... no power weapon/powerfist/attacks that ignore armour saves. Throw off the gloves and lay down some serious smackdown. Whoever is the baddest mother f*cka will prevail. :) Okay... five flamer templates is totally insane! I would love to do it too! :) -MA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 16, 2005 Author Share Posted January 16, 2005 - Okay... the hour is late and the ale flows freely... my Rune Priest is chilling with his mandolin and ready to stroke out a little tune... Take these broken wings and learn to fly Blackbird singing in the dead of night Take these sunken eyes and learn to see You were only waiting for this moment to be free Blackbird fly into the light of the dark black night :) -MA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurgle infestation Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 yup it hurts my army in a big way every time... problem is i taught hi the trick... silly me :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GilgaladMightyElf Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 i noticed the comments on how to use a rune priest b4so i thought i would share sum experience of their potential my best friend has 13th co. and uses a really annoying tactic against me... he takes a rune priest w/ all sorts of goodies (including a combi flamer) who then teleports in with a 8 strong devastator squad with either 4 meltaguns (he uses 2 army lists) or 4 flamers and 1 combi flamer (pack leader) . this squad lays down 6!!! templates and then charges the remains of the squad/ squads (when he has 2 targets he doesnt fire his packleader and fires at both units) this has ruined my tactics in one turn b4 i could counter it... so there are other ways to use rune priests my two cents. well theres the legal way and the illegal way. a) theres only 5 models in a long fang pack, :) the pack leader can't have anything else, and c) he can't assault after gating so you can just shoot all 5 of the models easily enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-723939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 16, 2005 Author Share Posted January 16, 2005 -Grey Slayers + Long Fangs This is not your typical Lost Company army list. I devised it to fight my brother's Blood Angels: :) Wolf Lord - MotW, Frost blade, storm bolter, tactical dreadnaught armour (I have the Logan Grimnar model and wanted to use it :)) Rune Priest - MotW, Frost blade, combi-melta, tactical dreadnaught armour :) 9xSlayers w. 2xPlasma gun WGPL w. MotW, thunder hammer, combi-plasma 9xSlayers w. 2xPlasma gun (Joined by the Wolf Lord) 9xSlayers w. 2xMeltagun WGPL w. MotW, thunder hammer, combi-melta :heavy support: 3xLong Fang w. 2xPlasma cannon & lascannon Pack leader 3xLong Fang w. 2xPlasma cannon & lascannon Pack leader This is a defensive army that shoots as much as possible before they launch a counter assault. Because I was playing my brother's Blood Angels I knew he would be bringing Death Company and a big Honour Guard (both with jump packs). I use the Rune Priest with the squad of Slayers sporting meltas to wait until the Death Company have moved out of cover then I teleport beside them and fire away. I chose the meltas because the Death Company cannot roll for Ignory Injury from S8 attacks. The trick is to kill three to four Death Company Marines and reduce their overall size. A small Death Company is much easier to handle in close combat. The two squads of Long Fangs are also intended mainly for anti-troop dakka, with the lascannons for anti-armour. This army did well against the Blood Angels. I have not used this army against other armies besides the Blood Angels. At 24" range it can shoot quite well. I have played Deathwing before and know that 24" is nothing to sneeze at if you can pour out lots of firepower. Next -> Werewolves as a Troop Choice Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-724053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord calgar Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 eariler in the thread you seemed undecided between wulfen and storm claws I go with one of each. and use the storm claws to support the wulfen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-724175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 16, 2005 Author Share Posted January 16, 2005 - My standard army list features three HQ, two full squads of Slayers, one full squad of Wulfen, and a Long Fang pack. The Wolf Lord is mounted and has both Fenrisian wolves and a retinue of Storm Claw bikers. If I was playing a foot slogging army then a squad of six Storm Claws would make a nice escort for the Rune Priest or Wolf Lord. -MA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-724197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 16, 2005 Author Share Posted January 16, 2005 -Wulfen as a Troop Choice Okay, this is the final army list that I will cover. There are several variants on this theme that I have played. I find it to be a hard army to win with but I'm sure others can do better. The first variant is as follows: Wulfen, Fenrisian wolf packs, Long Fangs. You take three to four large squads of Wulfen, two to three wolf packs, two squads of Long Fangs, plus the HQ. This is a good list to use a foot slogging Wolf Lord as the Wulfen and wolf packs are plenty fast. The wolf packs are the first wave and move out quickly to tie up the enemy battleline. The Wulfen follow closely behind as the second wave along with the HQ. The Long Fangs sit back and pepper the enemy from afar. I place the wolves on one flank so they have the numbers. The Wulfen packs should be spread out so the enemy cannot funnel them into bottlenecks with cheap units such as empty transports and Land Speeders. This is one army list where the Long Fangs should be relatively safe, as the enemy will be very busy shooting the wolves and werewolves. The problem with this list is the lack of powerfists and thunder hammers. You could drop one unit of werewolves for a squad of Storm Claws, but remember that the Storm Claws cannot be everywhere at once. You'll be relying upon the Wulfen to get most of the dirty work done. This is definitely one army list where the Wolf Priest with a thunder hammer has a role. This is the second variant I have used: Wolf Lord biker w. retinue, Rune Priest on bike, Two full squads of Wulfen (one lead by the Wolf Priest), Full squad of Storm Claws with two powerfists and tooled WGPL, Squad of Long Fangs. A Rune Priest on a bike! Why waste the power to teleport? The biker gives the Rune Priest enough speed to keep up with one squad of Wulfen, plus the only unit you might want to teleport is the Storm Claws. To me there is no big advantage teleporting the Storm Claws since they are not well suited for tank hunting. I have found these two army lists very fun to play, but rarely won with i.hem I'm sure you could make a few changes and it might do quite well. In general I have found that taking Wulfen as a Troop choice does not make for the best army but it is always a blast. Next -> Tactics Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-724233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 Tactica I am going to break this section down into three bits: Movement, Shooting, Assaulting. That should wrap things up. If you have any questions or comments let me know. :) -MA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-724618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyrer2000 Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I think the idea of replacing a Long Fangs pack with a small Storm Claws biker pack has some merit. It's worth trying out. I made a 4-man Storm Claws biker pack with WGPL, MOTW, powerfist, and two meltaguns for just a few points less than my standard 5-man lascannon/missile launcher Long Fangs pack. The Storm Claws are more mobile and have similar tank-busting capabilities...it might be worthwhile to try it out and see how it goes on the battlefield. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-724658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Angel Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 - It could work, and the bikers benefit from Turbo-Boost. If you miss with both meltaguns it could get ugly though. The bikers are much more versatile. I would toss in a combi-melta for the pack leader. :) -MA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/63898-some-thoughts-on-the-lost-company/page/2/#findComment-724725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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