Some thoughts on the Lost Company

[spyrer2000]

XxunderOATHxX, I don't think this thread is a good place to discuss this issue. I'm sure MA will chime in shortly. I also recommend that you use the searchy-skull for the previous thread and examine the evidence that refutes your claim there.

[spyrer2000]

The reason he has a frostblade and a thunderhammer is to make him flexible. The reason i use these two weapons is because they are IMHO the best weaponry for a lord. The frostblade is good for chopping up troops and the thunderhammer gives +1 attack. What happens when you run into a dreadnought or armour or something? then you use the thunderhammer and the frostblade confers +1 attack. Combine that with a wolftooth necklace and a belt of russ and its gold.

I discussed this issue previously about "Dreadnought insurance" - while normally I am a fan of making HQ units versatile, I have to disagree that setting up a 13th Company Wolf Lord with a thunderhammer is a good idea. Generally, my Wolf Lord's retinue of Storm Claws pack has enough powerfist swings to handle any Dread that wanders too close. Meltabombs are much more cost-effective as "Dreadnought insurance" and also strike at the Wolf Lord's Initiative.

 

You can disagree all you like, but i have been playing the 13th company since it came out, what i stated is from my experience. A thunderhammer is far more effective, especially against big creatures, or multiwound characters. A powerfist is more cost effective but not as versatile.

 

My point is that thunderhammers are only better than powerfists some of the time. I'm sure someone with better math skills than myself can run the numbers to prove it one way or the other. This particular issue falls back on my playing style (and you can ask MA about this if you like!) - I prefer stuff that works in any game, against any enemy. Thunderhammers work well only against SOME enemies - there are plenty of armies (non-mechanized Tau, Kroot Mercenaries, footslogger Orks just to name a few) where powerfists will get you just as much mileage if not more (since you're saving points). Now, all that being said, I do have at least one thunderhammer in the army I am fielding now - because I like 'em. :P

 

Because for the cost of one MoTW i can equip 3 characters with a wolftooth necklace which is more effective then one character. You'll argue about the benefits to the squad and i guess i can't really agree as my main opponents are orks and nids mainly and i really don't want orks hitting me on 3+ especially choppas.

I'm wondering if you're certain that you're familiar with the way that Mark of the Wulfen works...you are aware that the Wolf Lord gets +d3 Attacks with this piece of equipment and becomes fearless, right? Those two benefits alone elevate MOTW head and shoulders above the Wolf Tooth Necklace. I'd only recomment the WTN if you're really hurtin' for points (such as in a Combat Patrol game or similar size). Those extra D3 Attacks are what clinches the deal and will usually keep the Wolf Lord from having to worry about choppas - on average, he'll kill nearly every enemy within 2" at Initiative 5 with a frost blade or lightning claws.

 

Everything i said was from my own personal experience, but then i have a completely unorthodox play style, so meh.

 

If by "unorthodox" you mean "likely to win only with luck", then I'd have to agree.

 

Oh and by the way i don't really appreciate the fact that you jump on me for expressing my opinion. I have not done this to you, so maybe you could extend me the same courtesy huh? I was just adding a few things i think you missed from my own experiences of finding them really effective. However you probably haven't played with these things i suggested so don't worry about it.

 

No need to get offended, my good man. I stepped in because many of your statements were clearly contrary to things I have learned in my own experience to be wise moves in 13th Company army building. Nothing personal at all. This is a discussion board, and that means that folks are occasionally going to disagree with you. How you back up your claims is entirely up to you.

[DepthCharge]

*Hovers outside of thread, ready to bash it*

 

It appears as though you guys are striving to keep things impersonal (good).

 

Something that I always keep in mind when I'm posting though, is that different people have different strategies, and suffer from (benefit?) from different luck with regards to their strategies.

 

If someone always seems to have SPECTACULAR luck with a unit that should perform poorly in a given situation, it could be the luck (though luck generally doesn't last), or due to the fact that it fits the players overall style and strategy.

 

To each his own, and we're all permitted to disagree with each other, so long as we respect each other. It's a DC-given right :P

 

Thus concludes my monthly 'Make sure you all remember to be considerate' speech.

[Grey Mage]

Oi, thanks Depth... the subtle smacks upside the head there were starting to concern...

 

Personally I like the idea of the frostblade-thunderhammer. Id use a lightningclaw/thunderhammer if I could, but alas tis not possible. A simple power weapon might be a bit cheaper... but I think your HQ should be outfitted first, and then the rest of your army built around them. Especially for SW's, of any variety.

 

But, as a relative newb, take that with a grain of salt.

[The WarpGhost]

I perfectly understand the use of T-Hammer on the Lord, and on pack leaders, and not using the MotW. I just dont have time for it ;)

 

OK, Wolf Lord. It is a good combo. The 'hammers not so effective now, but the cost is something else; it works in your army because of your points-saving in other areas. I dont think it would be a good idea otherwise.

 

In packs, well, i dont personally use them but thats for 1) i didnt have the bits and 2) we're likely to start paying full price for 'hammers and twin LCs and frankly i cant see any way to save points; theyre unlikely to change the list much at all.

 

My disagreement on the MotW isnt for effectiveness (i didnt use it myself for a while), but on pure character. Its to me the personification of the 13th Company; forget the free termie honours, or Retinues. Its the very thing that conjours up the image of the howling wolfmen leaping from the trees to bring bloody ruin upon the enemies of the All-Father :devil: . We're never going to agree so we can happily ignore this. :)

 

even if i knew what 'yo moms foo' was i wouldnt drop on it (sounds painful ;) )

 

Keep up the both feet routine!

[spyrer2000]

This might be a good time to explain more in depth my playing style when it comes to choosing weapons and wargear. For me, I try to analyze the stuff I buy for my army in the following way.

 

1. Is this weapon/wargear going to be useful in any game vs. any army? (including any mission and any level of mission)

 

Thinking about it in terms of sheer effectiveness in any given Assault Phase, lightning claws and the frost blade are hands down the best two options. Why? Because these two weapons are very effective against the vast majority of the models the Wolf Lord is going to face. I acknowledge there are a few specific models that would be better handled by a thunderhammer - Dreadnoughts come to mind as the best example. However, I have to balance the odds of coming up against a Dreadnought vs. the high cost of the thunderhammer. In the long run, it's far more cost effective to just buy some 5-point meltabombs as "Dreadnought insurance" to give the Wolf Lord something to fight with and trust that the Storm Claws' powerfists will handle it if the meltabombs don't. In short, lightning claws and the frost blade are going to be effective in any game vs. any army. The same can't be said for the thunderhammer.

 

2. Is the points cost for this item worth what I want it to do? (i.e., could I just buy more Grey Slayers instead, and if I did, would that be more worthwhile?)

 

This factor is important when discussing high-value wargear (in the 20's and 30's) since you can often get one or two solid models out of it. The thunderhammer costs as much as a Grey Slayer and a Fenrisian Wolf, both models that I have in my army. Weighing the loss of these models vs. the gain of the thunderhammer, I don't see it as a good trade (my squads are all at even numbers, so losing even just one model makes the squad more vulnerable to becoming a non-scoring unit).

 

In the end, I have to state again that I think the lightning claws and frostblade are far better choices for an IC. Are there times that a thunderhammer will come in handy for a 13th Company army? Absolutely - but WGPL's can pick it up far cheaper than your IC's and will get to attack more often with it to boot (since they are NOT IC's and don't have to be in base-to-base contact to swing).

[generic_goon]

Okay after reading spryer replies I have a few questions.

 

I don’t know weather im just being pedantic and the “or” was meant to "and" in the above post but you only get the second weapon bonus with lightning claws in you wield a pair. So you are either equipped with 1 LC and a FB, 2LC, or 2LC and have a FB strapped to your back, is this pedantry or can you arm IC with lots of wargear.

 

Lets take a silly example giving an IC a thunder hammer, a pair of lightning claws, a combi-bolta and a bolt pistol and swap between combinations that suit you? I hope not as I’ve been missing out on some good power gaming. As a rule of thumb I thought it was one weapon per hand, is this right?

 

Also I have this strange feeling that a thunder hammer is a two handed weapon but I cant find any rules to support that have i been cheating myself?

 

If you have one LC and FB do you split your attacks between each weapon or take all with one? (I.E. your normal attacks with the ability to re-roll wounds or your normal attacks with +1 strength, or half and half?)

 

I personally never put TH or PF on IC’s as they really do not want to squander their high I which I have paid points for it. It seams to me that’s a real advantage for the 13th co and TH’s and PF kind of act against it.

 

I see what your saying about making a genralist army but if you know who your going to play you might as well tweak yours a bit, you opposition will be.

 

If playing blind tornement the yes be genralistic on the other hand its not like your wolf lord wakes up and goes hum fighting armourd company latter but changing my kit would be to much effort to pick up the power fists.

[spyrer2000]

I understand almost nothing of what you're talking about, generic goon.

 

Just to be clear, when I say that I think a frostblade and lightning claws are better than a thunderhammer, what I mean specifically is a bolt pistol and frostblade combination OR a pair of lightning claws, not both at the same time.

[generic_goon]

For a person who dosnt understand you have answered my question very well.

[spyrer2000]

I did my best. :devil:

[Mountain Angel]

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A character can take two single-handed weapons or a single-handed weapon and a double-handed weapon... so you cannot take a pair of lightning claws and a thunder hammer.

 

I see the benefit of taking both a Frost blade and a thunder hammer, but feel it is better to equip the Wolf Priest as such. It is expensive, but it is also quite an excellent combination of weapons for an independent character. I think most people are against taking the two due to the amount of points. I highly recommend the combination for a Wolf Priest leading a large pack of Wulfen. You are going to score more kills with the nasty combo when compared with one more Slayer and Fenrisian wolf. The trick is to know where to draw the line when selecting wargear. As I have said many times the Lost Company really needs their wargear.

 

:devil:

 

@Bloodwraith

 

Your tone was aggressive IMO and I also felt you have not thoroughly read all my tactica based on your questions. Heck, I don't expect anyone to read it all... but if you are going to ask a question about the tactica it is highly recommended.

 

-MA

[spyrer2000]

A thunderhammer is certainly a lot more understandable a purchase when made for a Wolf Priest rather than a Wolf Lord. :devil:

[DepthCharge]

However, you must consider the benefit of putting a Thunder Hammer on a Wolf Lord. For my money, a Wolf Lord with a belt of russ (and perhaps with a runic charm or runic armor) is one of the better characters to put a Thunder Hammer on.

 

Why?

 

The additional wound he has is critical in bringing the Thunder Hammer to bear. If he dies before he swings, what's the point? So you want your Init. 1 weapons on your most survivable characters, which usually means either Pack Leaders, rank-and-file pack members, or high-wound/high-toughness IC's. You want them to be high wound or high toughness because by the very nature of being an IC, they can (and will) be targetted before they swing.

 

The new rules for close combat though, make it tough to make sure that your Wolf Lord, or any character with a Thunder Hammer, for that matter, will be allowed to get his swings in against anything but big, hard to kill things (like Tyranid Big Bugs).

 

Why? I'm sure Wolf Lord Lars can tell us. With the new version of the assault rules, it's very, very easy to remove models from base-to-base contact with a character, and if he's not in base-to-base, since he's an IC, he's kind of left out there in the breeze, with no models to attack (and few/none to attack him).

 

That's why utilizing their I5 is EVEN MORE critical now in 4th edition. I still plan on modeling my Wolf Lord Thorvaldr with a Thunder Hammer, but at least for a while, it's going to be for bad-ass model purposes, not for gameplay.

[Mountain Angel]

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NOTE - I added a diagram to the section on teleporting... here it is again fro your viewing pleasure. :devil:

 

-Teleporting (aka The Gate)

The ability to teleport a unit with several meltas is very powerful but requires skill to correctly pull off well. Some people have given up on the new deep strike rule with the advent of V4... however, how many Necron players do you know that have since stopped using the Veil of Darkness?

 

If your opponent is not prepared for this special movement then you stand a good chance to easily destroy some of his armour. If your opponent deploys in such a manner to attempt protecting his tanks then he has probably not placed them in the best tactical positions. So either way using The Gate is going to throw a big monkeigh wrench into your opponent's best laid plans.

 

I typically teleport three or more times a game. I like to first teleport in with all the melta toting Slayers, blow up some tanks, then teleport back for the plasma toting Slayers and hose down closeby enemy troopers. I aggressively use The Gate and most often it has paid off.

 

Here is a simple diagram showing the alighment of the combined unit's bases when teleporting:

 

http://warp-space.net/Gate.jpg

 

The black circle represents the Rune Priest. The grey circles represent the first Slayers, which are placed in base contact with the Rune Priest. The red circles represent the last four Slayers, which are placed in base contact with the first six Slayers. Finally each empty circle represents one inch and helps you visualize how close you can place the combined unit beside an enemy vehicle.

 

You should be able to place your full squad of Grey Slayers in two circles (as shown above) around the Rune Priest when teleporting the combined unit. If you place the Rune Priest six inches away (1/2 range for meltaguns) from the target you wish to shoot and he has teleported with a full squad of Slayers then the maximum separation distance between the closest model to the object is two inches assuming there is no scatter. Therefore, a good rule of thumb is to place the Rune Priest nine inches away from the target object - there is a slighter chance of drifting over the enemy unit and the majority of your meltaguns should be at 1/2 range.

 

It's much easier to teleport beside one enemy tank rather than between two. I think this where many players are having problems. It all comes down to placement. There is not much you can do about rolling boxcars, but then again the odds are rather low.

 

 

Next -> Turbo-Boost

[spyrer2000]

Shouldn't it be 8" instead of 9"? 8-2=6" for meltagun double AP range.

[Mountain Angel]

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The extra inch is a safety margin. You can place Slayers with meltas on the outer circle to keep them at 1/2 range.

 

-MA

[Bloodwraith]

Your tone was aggressive IMO and I also felt you have not thoroughly read all my tactica based on your questions.

My tone was agressive? what? how can you tell what my tone was? tone doesn't come across well in type. It was actually an innocent set of questions, nothing agressive about them.

 

Heck, I don't expect anyone to read it all... but if you are going to ask a question about the tactica it is highly recommended.

 

I did read it all, yes all of it. I was referring to lists and weaponry with my questions and statements. You covered three lists, which for want of a better word are not generic. Why cover only three armies? is it because you only have experience with three armies? By the way, i agree with most of what you say i was just pointing a few things out. I think covering a generic list would make this topic an even more invaluable source of information for new players.

 

The reason i don't like the MoTW is because in an expensive army, saving points is important and i wouldn't use the MoTW in games less then 2,000 points, i much prefer the wolftooth necklace. Again thats just me.

 

If by "unorthodox" you mean "likely to win only with luck", then I'd have to agree.

 

Its interesting that you make a snap judgement like that, when a.) you don't know my playing style and b.) what list i use. You see one character in my army and you assume that based on that one character i am likely to only win by luck. Haven't you heard that a good general can win with just about any list?

By the way, DC did a topic on the wolf lord with thunderhammer and frostblade which is where i got it from and it has worked for me very effectively. Each to their own, what works for one may not work for another.

[spyrer2000]

Bloodwraith, I get the impression you're responding emotionally rather than rationally. I suggest you go back and read this page of the thread again in full.

[DepthCharge]

Bllodwraith, Mountain Angel thought your tone was aggressive. He clearly states that it was his opinion (IMO). You made it clear that your tone was not meant to be aggressive. That little misunderstanding should end there.

 

The 'unorthodox'-comment part is up to interpretation. You can play with an unorthodox style and still win with skill. In fact, I would say it's far MORE of a challenge to play outside the norms (Beaver :evil:).

 

If MA believes that Bloodwraith wins soley due to luck, that's his choice, though he probably hasn't seen your lists or your playing style. Luck runs out (as our local screwball Decoy has shown us). It is a fickle thing.

 

Strategy, both in the creation of one's army list (with knowledge of his opponent), as well as deployment and actual in-game strategy, and (let's be honest) a little luck, are what really win games.

 

All in all, a little understanding is all that is needed here. Put yourselves in the other guys shoes, and we can all run around in a field of flowers with our bare feet, then set fire to the field and cackle madly as we dance.

 

Oh, how we shall dance!

 

(In case you didn't follow me, just play nice, saavy?)

[spyrer2000]

The extra inch is a safety margin. You can place Slayers with meltas on the outer circle to keep them at 1/2 range.

 

MA, my math still works out to 7" if you teleport the Rune Priest on target 9" away from the enemy unit. The Rune Priest is 9" away, the inner circle is 8" away, so the outer circle would be 7" away. What are your thoughts on this?

[spyrer2000]

DC, thanks for your attention to this thread. I was thinking that (with MA's permission?) I'd explain a bit about tactics & strategy discussions.

 

It's all very well and good for someone to say "X is good." But WHY is X good? Simply stating "X works for me" is not a good argument. In short, tactics and strategy discussions are only really fruitful and useful to new and veteran players when the poster's claims have something to back them up.

 

Some good examples of how to prove a tactics & strategy point:

1. Examine the tactic/strategy from the viewpoint of an RTT player - no list tailoring, take-on-all-comers style. This approach maximizes the usefulness and application of a particular tactic or strategy.

1a. If a tactic or strategy works differently against a specific kind of army, it's a good idea to say so. :devil:

 

2. What are the strengths and weaknesses of this tactic or strategy? Does it rely on the opponent doing something silly? (i.e., setting up his army within a certain range of your weapons, no cover on the table, etc.) Are there conditions under which the tactic will NOT work? (i.e., Assault tactics vs. Armored Company)

3. Give a few examples of how and, most importantly, WHY the tactic or strategy is a good one.

4. Be prepared for discussion. That means from time to time (shockingly) people will disagree with you. Remain open for discussion and acknowledge a good point when one is made. I have altered some of my own plans from discussions on this board precisely because other folks have thought of things I hadn't. Nobody can think of EVERYTHING themselves.

 

I'm sure there's more numbers that can be added to this list, but what you see here is just off the top of my head and illustrates a lot of the common difficulties I see most often cropping up on the various B&C tactics/strategy discussions.

 

Those are my ideas, anyways. :)

[Mountain Angel]

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Okay...

 

1> The Rune Priest can have up to two Slayers directly between him and the target... that is two inches of separation between the Rune Priest and the target.

 

2> Add one inch for the minimum separation distance... that totals three inches of separation between the Rune Priest and the target.

 

3> The Slayer on the outer (partial) circle closest to the target is one inch away.

 

3> If you place the Rune Priest eight inches away from the target then the closest Slayer on the outer (partial) circle is six inches away and at 1/2 range.

 

So you are correct in regards to eight inches of separation between the initial placement of the Rune Priest from the target. :devil: The extra inch of safety allows you to safely scatter up to seven inches directly towards the target; i.e., you can add an another inch of separation by placing the outer (partial) circle of Slayers as far away as possible from the target on the opposite side of the inner circle of Slayers.

 

IMO seven inches is cutting it quite close when rolling 2d6 for the scatter distance. ;)

 

 

 

@Bloodwraith

I have so far covered only army lists that I have played. You can use the tactica in regards to the various Lost Company units and wargear to put together a 'generic' list. Honestly I though don't believe there is truly such a thing as a generic list. I am considering putting together an 'Putting It All Together' section at the end of the tactica which would help you build an army list in more general terms.

 

:)

 

-MA

[generic_goon]

How are you measuring seven inches from the target to be so precise in these stactics? I thought you had to place your telport marker without measuring anything can you be sure you are 7 inches away or is this an ideal case senario?

[Mountain Angel]

-

I used to place the ordnance template spot on everytime back when you had to guess the distance. If you make an effort you can learn to visualise distance. It really helps too.

 

:devil:

 

-MA

[Mountain Angel]

-Turbo-Boost-

This special movement allows your bikers to move between 18 - 24 inches during the movement phase. You do not have to move in a straight line, however you must end up at least 18" away from your starting point and cannot move through difficult/impassable terrain. Use the special movement to weave around difficult terrain!

 

If your Wolf Lord or Wolf Priest is mounted on a bike and has Fenrisian wolves as wargear, or has joined a pack of wolves then they cannot use the turbo-boost special movement. However, a character on a bike or squad of bikers can use turbo-boost to keep up with a fast moving pack of wolves.

 

When you use turbo-boost the squad cannot shoot or assault and their armour save becomes an invulnerable save. One tactic I have not tried is to take a Wolf Lord with runic armour on a bike and use the turbo-boost move. The Wolf Lord will then benefit from a 2+ invulnerable save until your next turn, then he should be in a great position to launch an assault.

 

You can use turbo-boost to quickly move a squad of bikers across an enemy flank so they will be in a good position to shoot and/or assault the following turn. You can also use turbo-boost late in the game to claim or contest a table quarter.

 

Remember that biker squads are small. If they take enough wounds then they will eventually start to fail those glorious invulnerable saves. When taking a 3+ save you can expect to fail one for every three saves. So as you can see enough shooting can quickly cut down your expensive bikes. It's better to ride in behind a piece of safe cover rather than push them out in the open. Since bikes can move 12 inches during the movement phase and assault another 6 inches it's safe to say one well placed turbo-boost should have your bikers in a great position to do something useful the following turn.

 

 

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