New Chapter

[Einsatz]

Is it plausible that a marine chapter was created, say around the 17th founding, and was made from the geneseed of the ultramarines, but trained by a cadre of other marines?

 

The wolves and blood angels excel at H+H, so they would train the assault, iron warriors and imperial fists for siege, and so on.

 

Much like a Ordos xenos kill team as the training cadre?

 

It would not effect the abilities of the marines in any way (NO special skills), but would be shown in some part by the hereldry of the squads. I plan on making the squads wear hereldry to mark them much like grey knights in power armor.

 

My vet and termies would wear individual hereldry like the GK.

 

Is this way off fluff? I'm trying to make a DIY chapter and it's really kicking me in the <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>.

 

Any replies would be most welcome.

[ironloki]

Well generally if marines where to be trained by some veterans from a chapter they would be taught in all aspects (Assault, seige etc) equally as it would prove too cumbersome to get different marines in from different chapters to train each aspect individualy. :D

 

Also Iron warriors would not train them as they are heretics ;)

 

I suggest checking out some of the threads in the DIY forum as Aurelius has some nice stickies which will help you alot :cuss

 

Edit :I decided to whack this over to Liber as you'll get more detailed advice here :D

[Einsatz]

LOL - I meant Iron Hands. I should have known that, as much as I despise Chaos.

 

Thanks.

[warlordgrubnatz]

im shure this could be possible. it sounds good and im intrested :)

[Ferrata]

Why dont you do a crusade army. Ones made up of men/units from different chapters to go on some cruasde. This could lead to having special squads (such as veteran bp + ccw to represent Blood Angels)

 

Ferrata

[Einsatz]

I'm thinking crusade army. Lots of battle damage, and pieces of chaos armor (icons removed), like the 13th company. Heed the wisdom, and take the fight to them for traits and have faith in suspicion (no psykers in the eye) and flesh over steel (drop pods?)) for drawbacks. Of course this would be the army already on the crusade. (sorry mini's are already built).

 

The flip side would be the other army I'm building. Very scout heavy (maybe tac squads as vets) to represent my "in training" army.No mercy, No respite and take the the fight to them as traits with Aspire to glory and faithful unto death as disadvantages (the vets and dreads being on crusade).

 

The chapter badge and armor color would be the same for both armies the "vet" army would just have the different traits and the chaos armor swaps.

 

I'm thinking they crusade, come back resupply and crusade again (into the eye maybe), the other army would be the recruits and/or trainers preparing new marines for the crusade.

[Aurelius Rex]

Why dont you do a crusade army. Ones made up of men/units from different chapters to go on some cruasde. This could lead to having special squads (such as veteran bp + ccw to represent Blood Angels)

 

Ferrata

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There may be some misunderstanding between Ferrata's idea for a Crusade Army and Einsatz's enterpretation. :)

 

Ferrata was talking about when a wide variety of chapters send a squad or two each for a mission/crusade/to accompany a Rogue Trader, so taking part in an honourable action while not weakening their own fighting strength too much. The Ultramarines Cadian Honour company is another great example, guarding the eye and made up of squads from the UM second founders (First Born) as well as the UM themselves.

 

It gives you a chance to try out loads of different painting styles so you could have an assault squad each from the Blood Angel and Raven Guard, a devastator squad from the Imperial Fists, a tactical squad from the Dark Angels and a land speeder from the White Scars etc etc.

 

You couldn't pick and choose the traits for each unit individually, and straight codex marine ruled may be the best way to represent them moderating their chapter differences to work together.

 

A really nice and interesting, fluffy idea. Not a chapter in itself, but an army to be proud of.

 

Einsatz, you appear to be talking about a crusading chapter, like the Black Templars, or maybe one that has been sent on a penitent crusade for naughty deeds, like the Lamenters when they got mixed up with the Astral Claws.

 

Both are reasonable army ideas with a lot of potential.

 

The idea of having different squads trained by different chapters is original, but to me runs the risk of losing focus to the central theme of the chapter. Also, if some squads were trained by different chapters the training would have blended together over the 6+ millennia and lost it's distinctiveness, and would probably give something akin to the Codex Astartes teachings of the Ultramarines, as the different groups come to terms with meshing their disparate trainings.

 

This might be a useful post on training successors, and is part of a wider thread that has loads of helpful ideas on creating a DIY chapter. The successor training thing is partly extrapolation, not gospel, but should give some pointers. :)

[Einsatz]

I like the idea of a crusade chapter, in some ways. But, that's not what I had in mind.

[Einsatz]

I was figuring they would modify thier tatics over time, thereby becoming a seperate chapter and loosing the special abilities of the training cadre.

 

I was going to make them a chapter in the warp for 10K years, but said no it's been done. So, I went with the two army idea, one one crusade and one trying to be accepted for the crusade

 

I have liked the idea of a crusade army since way back. I do not however like the lack of uniformity on the table. There is always the chance that I'll play against someone that has the same army as one of my squads.

 

I just don't want to "copy" straight from the GK. I thought it would be interesting to show small stuff from the other chapters in my hereldry. Maybe a wolfs head in the corner of a shield or a winged sword as part of a tac marines shoulder pad. Not the whole pad mind you, maybe just 1/4 of it. I would even consider using models from other ranges to show the distinction of the squad. Although in my own chapter color (black with red shoulder pads).

 

Another reason I went with the crusade and return idea is most people said I would have to take mutations and/or bionics. I don't want a chaos army. I want to show that they crusade for decades or centuries (depending on the warp) and have to scrounge armor and equipment.

[Einsatz]

I was just thinking about the eldar (don't ask me why). LOL.

 

What if my marines were given the armor from the marine that thier gene-seed came from. Not the same as the eldar holding the spirits within the armor. But, it could help to explain why the wollf head is on the aquila or why the chain axe is still used. The scout could even be "named" when he becomes a marine, so that the essence of the original crusader was intact? kind of like the sword masters of Ginaz, for those brian herbert fans out there?

 

Am I drifting farther and farther away from the fluff???

[Dannage]

Einsatz, you sound a bit like me. :)

 

I'm using some bits and pieces from other chapters in my army but I don't think that using the model means you have to adjust the fluff accordingly. As per the post I've just written in the Emperors Vengeance thread, I don't think cross training is of any use because you have to think of chapters as if they are breeding and not just training. Because they have different and specific genestock, if you introduce an outside element, then you pollute the genesee purity and you create a divergence.

 

From a fluff point of view this idea would be great, because if you took gene stock and engineered 30% of it to be Blood angel and 70% ultramarine, then I am presuming you would get a bunch of semi vampiric marines. Ultaimtely, much like in higher generation vampires in world of darkness this thins the line and then that's effectively a cure for the curse of Sanguinius and the Space Wolves continuing mutation.... But if it were possbile, I'm sure it would have been thought of already. :blink:

 

Personally, I think having a bit of animal skin on your armour doesn't make you a space wolf, these are just animal skulls and skins and hey, if you area fleet based chapter, then you recruit from different worlds and, like my chapter will, you will have people who have their own customs and work those customisations on to their armour. As much as we as modellers like our soldiers to be individual, I'm sure the soldiers themselves would have the same desire, were they real. My guys have crossed half the galaxy, so they've picked up some trophies along the way, so my fluff goes that way instead (but can keep the uniformity you crave because they are still one army).

 

You may also notice in my fledgling history though, that I've made the EV an Ultramarines successor, but they split into four battle groups and went on a big crusade, one of those battle groups spent some time with Salamanders and Blood Angels, two of the groups travelled near Fenris and spent a lot of time fighting alongside space wolves, etc. Plenty of ways around it basically. :)

 

Finally, if you want some other torphies or bits, then you can use replacement armour bits. Let us say a group of your marines was cut off from the chapter and fought alongisde a similarly cut off band of another chapter. If their adventure was long and bloody, then members of both sides would be dying. If your most trusted comrade ended up being of another chapter and he fell in battle, maybe you would wear his helmet or his breastplate as a sign of honouring him? Plenty of scope for this on vehicles too, where long winded campaigns have resulted in you either just not having any paint to hand, or not having time or inclination to paint over the armour you just ripped off that broken predator.....

 

Looooads of avenues to explore, to customise your army. :)

 

... I'll shut up now.

[Ferrata]

From a fluff point of view this idea would be great, because if you took gene stock and engineered 30% of it to be Blood angel and 70% ultramarine, then I am presuming you would get a bunch of semi vampiric marines. Ultaimtely, much like in higher generation vampires in world of darkness this thins the line and then that's effectively a cure for the curse of Sanguinius and the Space Wolves continuing mutation.... But if it were possbile, I'm sure it would have been thought of already

 

They did, well it was crossed with the Fists, and it created the Lamenters, the most unluckiest chapter out there.:blink: :) This was during the cursed founding, so they dont temper with seeds anymore, just pure bread.

 

Einsatz I think you need to think hard about what your chapter wants to be, because at the moment I can see you having a broad theme and just ending up with a blob of brown paint :) Instead of a nice extreme colour.

 

Ferrata

[Einsatz]

I've gotten it down to an incomplete crusade. I'm thinking along the lines of boarding specialists (hulk). I am putting them far out to the western sector, near the halo zone. I am going to say that the crusade required no new marines, so the marines on crusade keep thier glands until death. When one marine dies, his glands are transferred into a scout. At that time the scout would be "renamed" and given the battle gear of the fallen marine. The history of the marine would be recorded throughout all of the "reincarnations", allowing the same marines to complete the crusade.

 

Thier time on crusade and thier distance from friendly sectors requires them to scavenge from the enemy. Hence chaos armor bits. I think that since the marines were forced to keep the original numbers, the squads were named after the SGT and hereldry created for the squad.

 

All I need now is the reason for the crusade, and some odd bits of fluff. How does this sound?

[jimmythemoose]

Ok, I'm not sure you fully understand how genessed works. Every marine has two progenoid glands (which make genessed) which are harvested, one which is taken out of their neck 10 years after it has been implanted and one in their chest which is removed once they die. These are then implanted into a normal human along with the other implants to create a marine. A scout is not a normal human, it is just a marine who's implants (particularly the black carapace) are not fully matured yet and who is inexperienced in battle. All scout already have geneseed in them.

 

As for the rest of the idea I'm not really sure what it is I your ideas seem to be all over the place. Is it a crusade made up of different chapters, or one chapter? If it is one chapter then why were they trained by different chapters (an unlikely occurence IMO)?

 

The chaos armour is also unlikely, the 13th company only get away with it because they haven't been in contact with the imperium for 10000 years. To be honest at the moment it just sounds like you want to have a mix of a crusade chapter and the 13th company.

[angelspast]

Eh.. not quite. The progenoids can be harvested at roughly 5/10 years, neck/chest respectively. The harvested progenoid is not implanted into a aspirant. The progenoids are organs that over time absorb genitic material from the marines unique implants, forming germ cells. These germ cells are 'genetic blueprints' for the marines special organs. The germ cells are then extracted from the progenoids and a new set of organs is grown in chemical vats. Once they're grown the process of implantation, chemical treatment, hypnotherapy, and training begins anew.

 

White Dwarf 98 ;) Perhaps the best place to find geneseed info ^_^

 

 

Einsatz: It's not uncommon for armor and gear to be re-used. Rather than trying to tie geneseed directely into it, just have the new aspirant take up the name of the deceased marine, and use his gear?

[jimmythemoose]

I stand corrected. Isn't it weird though how despite the chest progenoid being ready to harvest at 10 years in nearly every story featuring marines dieing it mentions their chest geneseed. This makes me think they just leave it in until they die.

 

Also for those who don't have WD98 the article on the UK website is quite similar.

[angelspast]

IMHO most of the progenoids that are recovered from battle losses haven't fully matured. They still might contain some of the needed germ cells though, and thus are still valuable.

[Einsatz]

You are right I was wrong. The Progenoid organs are inserted during the next to last phase. while scouts. It's the final stage that completes the transission. Well, at least it's the last implant.

 

I don't think I'm "all over the place". My chapter is on crusade, for a past misdeed. They want to make amends for thier transgressions. So, they in essence keep the same marines around until the crusade is complete. While I'll have to change when the glands are inserted I'll keep the equipment and name being passed on to the new marine.

 

I think is a religious thing for them. They see the new marine as a replacement of the old. Therefor they do not loose battle brothers and the sins of the chapter can be cleansed.

 

As far as the chaos armor pieces. I removed all the chaos icons, I just think the chaos stuff has a more "gothic" feel. Maybe I could use my chapters paint scheme onto the chaos armor pieces.

 

I don't think I'm doing a good job explaining this thing. I'm thinking about specifics and giving generalizations. I'll work on hammering out the rough spots. Worse comes to worse I'll finish them, call them chaos undivided, and find a kid with no money and give him the army. :D

 

Thanks for all the input.

[Ferrata]

I don't think I'm "all over the place".

 

This was in reference to when you where thinking of having numerous different chapters tutor your chapter

 

Ferrata

[Einsatz]

Ah, I see, Thanks.

 

When I look at my own ideas it even confuses me sometimes ;) . I blame it on post-traumatic stress disorder, and move on. ;) ;) :D ;)

 

The different chapters was to explain the iconography of the marines. I want to do a non-codex chapter (with markings like the GK), but I want to stay away from the traditional skulls and swords. So, I was thinking add a wolf symbol or a blood angel symbol, to part of the hereldry, in place of a skull or sword.

 

 

I can maybe say thier homeworld was destroyed by a xenos, maybe necron or an unknown. I could use a "nova burst" on the shields to represent the destruction of the homeworld.

 

Icon idea sorry, it's a WIP

 

I think this could also explain the crusade, They lost the home world, which caused a failed campaign. The remnants of the chapter went on a penitent crusade in the western reaches.

 

If I painted the chaos armor in my own chapter colors, it would really let me forego the entire chapter idea. So, it will take a little work, but I'll keep trying.