Space Sharks

[Cpt_Tiberius]

I am considering a Space Shark army and was wondering if there was any official fluff for them from the old days. I have some Ideas about how I envision their background but I don't want to contradict anything in the official canon.

 

I am specifically interested in any examples of their combat doctrine. I saw the trait listing for them in the Badab War Campaign pack, and I feel it is completely out of character. (Is there any fluff to back up the wanna-be Iron Hands traits?)

 

Any help would really be appreciated. Thanks!

[Vodunius]

no real fluff i believe other than that they were a in the Badab War.. they *may* have been involved in the final assault against Badab itself (or that may have beent he Star Sharks)

 

as for the Iron Hand wannabe~ness being out of character, they dont have enough fluff to (zilch infact) for it to be out of character, however its not without precident, the illustrations for marine uniforms for the RT book and the Badab war tended to try and have something unusual on each marine (eg: iron hand having a bloodied bandage around one thigh) ~ the Space Shark one had a bionic leg

 

one important point, the B&C avatar is << is wrong Space Sharks had a red helmet stripe (it was RT Space WOLVES that were codex grey with a yellow helmet stripe)

[Brother Vidius]

Don't know about fluff but someone on here had a lovely Space Sharks army.

[Cpt_Tiberius]

Well I feel like they gave them the mechanical feel just because he had a bionic leg. which is not a very good reason at all and just smacks of laziness. I would probably give them no mercy no respite to make them more intimidating like their namesake.

 

As far as being mechanically inclined that seems much more suited to the Red Scorpions with there use of robots.

 

And I was planning to use the red stripe anyway since it fits in with my background story.

[Codexmaker]

I know their chapter badge was updated from the olf rogue trader one your using on your avatar. It's shown atIron Hands.com. No new fluff I'm afraid. There's no problem with modifying their traits a bit to reflect the inaccuracy of the traits provided during the badab war campaign as well as any changes that have occurred to the chapter since the badab war.

[Ferrata]

Space Sharks have the following Traits -

 

Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients, Scions of Mars and Eye to Eye.

Badab Link

 

These where released by GW. These maybe their traits for the Badab period, so they might have changed (Howling Griffons are more Assualt Squad than then) but Im guessing they wont have changed much.

 

Ferrata

[Cpt_Tiberius]

I know that those traits were given to them. My question was more along the lines of:

 

A. Why?

 

B. Is there any pre existing fluff from any of the previous editions that would support these traits being attached to them.

 

C. If I don't want to use them would I be able to use my army in tournaments with the traits I think they should have or will I be forced to use the traits above?

 

Personally I feel that the Traits were only chosen because the picture from the Badab war article back in the day had the marine with a bionic leg. I do not feel that it is at all justified as most chapters use bionics, not just those with Scion of Mars.

 

But having said that. If there is actual fluff to back this up then I will gladly use them. However I feel that they mixed these traits up with those of the Red Scorpions. I mean "Slow and Purposeful" for the bonus squad? That just doesn't make sense.

 

 

-On a side note- I am curious as to why this post (or those for the Subjugators, Hawklords or Mortifactors) were moved to the Liber Astartes section. These are not DIY chapters, but ones actually created by Games Workshop. I'm fairly new to this board so maybe I just don't understand the rules.

[Codexmaker]

A. Why?

Because they wanted to make the Badab side aggressive using traits and the Imperial side defensive (hence the heavy use of Honour Thy Wargear). Official fluff was ignored or not even looked up when making these traits.

 

B. Is there any pre existing fluff from any of the previous editions that would support these traits being attached to them.

 

Nope.

 

C. If I don't want to use them would I be able to use my army in tournaments with the traits I think they should have or will I be forced to use the traits above?

I consider it your duty to give them traits they should have, to correct the mistakes of someone from GW too bone-idle to do his frickin' research.

 

Personally I feel that the Traits were only chosen because the picture from the Badab war article back in the day had the marine with a bionic leg. I do not feel that it is at all justified as most chapters use bionics, not just those with Scion of Mars.

 

Exactly.

 

But having said that. If there is actual fluff to back this up then I will gladly use them. However I feel that they mixed these traits up with those of the Red Scorpions. I mean "Slow and Purposeful" for the bonus squad? That just doesn't make sense.

Nothing does when you don't bother doing research.

 

-On a side note- I am curious as to why this post (or those for the Subjugators, Hawklords or Mortifactors) were moved to the Liber Astartes section. These are not DIY chapters, but ones actually created by Games Workshop. I'm fairly new to this board so maybe I just don't understand the rules.

 

Because they are not one of the 'lesser' chapters i.e. first founding chapters without their own personal codex.

[Commissar Molotov]

Codexmaker, do you actually have any fluff (quoting a source would give your argument credibility) that disproves the traits that GW assigned the Space Sharks?

 

From what I know there isn't much fluff either way for the Space Sharks. GW is the official source of fluff. If they were to tell us in a new edition that the Battle for the Emperor's Palace actually took place on the Sea of Tranquility on the Moon, we'd have to accept it.

 

That said, if you can give us fluff that suggests the traits Tiberius has a 'duty' to assign to them, I'd be glad to hear it. From what he said, Tiberius is happy to play them with GW's traits, it's just not quite how he'd imagined them from the (limited) showing they've had in GW literature.

 

All I know is that the homeworlds of the Mantis Legion and Executioners were forfeited to the Space Sharks and Star Phantoms for their part in the war.

[Cpt_Tiberius]

I assumed that was the case.

 

So why would you make the Side that is laying seige to a system ( i.e. the Imperials) defensive, while those being besieged (i.e. renegade marines) offensive? That just doesn't make any sense.

 

So, now comes the question. What traits do I use? On one hand I could use "See but Don't be Seen" with it's Infiltrate and Acute Senses to represent the cunning and tracking abilites of a shark. Or I could use the "No Mercy No Respite" with it's Furious Assault to represent the vicious attack of a shark. Both have their merits.

 

As far as disadvantages go. I would have to go with "Death Before Dishonor" as none of the other disadvantages mesh with the background I have developed so far.

 

 

What do you guys think?

[Codexmaker]

I don't know where I got the impression that the loyalists had lots of the 'Honour Your Wargear' trait. I was wrong, and I apologise for that.

 

As for the traits for the Badab war guys:

 

The Executioners are one of the only chapters that wear camouflage. Infiltration and stealth are very important to them, yet the Badab War leaflet does not allow them to infiltrate. Clashes with 1st ed.

 

The Tiger Claws (aka the Red Corsairs) have never had access to true grit and have never had more than the usual number of assault squads. They also have access to bike squadrons as normal. This is according to their codex entry in 2nd ed. chaos codex.

 

The Fire Hawks (aka Legion of the Damned) have never had the option of taking 2 special weapons nor have they ever had furious charge, according to their unit entries in 2nd and 3rd ed., as well as their codexes in 2nd, 3rd and 4th ed. They also have access to bike squadrons and attack bikes, and have some very good models for them too.

 

The Sons of Medusa are descended from the Iron Hands judging by their colour scheme, chapter badge and name. Yet their traits are nothing like the iron hands and they have Flesh Over Steel!

 

The Red Scorpions are fanatically devoted to stealth tactics according to 1st ed., even sometimes refusing to fight alongside those chapters that won't use stealth, yet the Badab list gives them pure assault tactics with no option to infiltrate!

 

The Exorcists are a recently founded chapter (M40), so they ought to have aspire to glory. They were founded to combat the daemonic, and have higher levels of adrenaline and abnormal levels of serotonin, which would be perfectly represented by furious charge, yet they do not have the right traits. Their background from the armageddon3 website says that when they started fighting their first few missions, they had a squad of grey knights in reserve, yet their Have Faith In Suspicion trait prohibits them from allying with psykers, which rules out all grey knights units!

 

 

You're right. I can't prove that the Space Sharks have been given the wrong traits. But I can demonstrate that the Badab War leaflet clashes with just about every major source of fluff ever produced by GW. That's why I have such contempt for this leaflet as a source of reliable information.

 

As for the Space Shark traits, I recommend that you use whatever you want, but preferably try to stay in character. Taking the trait that allows acute senses is a good idea, as sharks are infamous for their ability to smell a few drops pf blood underwater from several miles away. I also think that no mercy, no respite is a good idea too, given the reputation of sharks for ferocity. If I was using them, I would go for:

 

No Mercy, No Respite, See, But Don

[Ferrata]

I would say that GW has given a Chapter Traits you have the choice of using the Traits, or going straight codex like the chapters of legend. They might not be to your liking, you might not agree with them. But if your doing a chapter which has been given traits, you have to use them or none.

 

The only way you could change them is to say "Well the Badab war was quite a while ago, I'm playing a more up-to-date version", but you would still have to stay close to what they were. Not many chapters are suddenly going to change how they fight. If you dont like those two traits, maybe drop one for something similar, but not go from shooty to combaty.

 

The Sons of Medusa are descended from the Iron Hands judging by their colour scheme, chapter badge and name. Yet their traits are nothing like the iron hands and they have Flesh Over Steel!

A successor chapter does not need to be like its parent chapter. Look at the Mortifactors and the Ultras. Compare the Imperial Fist to the Black Templars. BT to the Crimson Fists.

 

On a side note- I am curious as to why this post (or those for the Subjugators, Hawklords or Mortifactors) were moved to the Liber Astartes section. These are not DIY chapters, but ones actually created by Games Workshop. I'm fairly new to this board so maybe I just don't understand the rules.

 

They have not had an IA article produced by GW for them, thus are IA chapters. As there is very little fluff, you are basically doing a DIY chapter where GW has made the scheme, badge and name for you

 

 

Ferrata

[Rogue Trader]

The Executioners are one of the only chapters that wear camouflage. Infiltration and stealth are very important to them, yet the Badab War leaflet does not allow them to infiltrate. Clashes with 1st ed.

Not sure where you're getting this from. I've never read anywhere that the Executioners "are one of the only chapters that wear camouflage". Since you seem so keen on quoting 1st ed, you'll surely be aware that every chapter used camouflage back then. Under current fluff, the See, but don't be seen trait states that many chapters use stealth in various forms (such as camo) to gain an advantage, again, not limiting it's use to the Executioners.

 

It's also worth nothing that just because a chapter uses camo, doesn't automatically mean they are going to infiltrate. The IG paint Baneblades in camouflage, but you don't see many infiltrating Baneblades, do you?

 

 

The Tiger Claws (aka the Red Corsairs) have never had access to true grit and have never had more than the usual number of assault squads. They also have access to bike squadrons as normal. This is according to their codex entry in 2nd ed. chaos codex.

The Tiger Claws and the Red Corsairs are not the same organisation. We all know the Tiger Claws became the Red Corsairs after the Badab War, but the traits list in the Badab .pdf are for the Tiger Claws at the time of the Badab War. Does it not occur to you that the organisation of a renegade band of mercenaries might be ever so slightly different to that of a chapter of Space Marines? Even if they are in the process of rebelling against the Imperium, they still have the compostion and resources of a SM chapter.

 

I'm also not sure what relevance the 2nd ed rules have on this discussion. We're in 4th edition now, the rules from 2nd ed are redundant. I also fail to see the point of your comment on bike squads. Where in the Badab .pdf file does it say they can't take bike squads?

 

 

The Fire Hawks (aka Legion of the Damned) have never had the option of taking 2 special weapons nor have they ever had furious charge, according to their unit entries in 2nd and 3rd ed., as well as their codexes in 2nd, 3rd and 4th ed. They also have access to bike squadrons and attack bikes, and have some very good models for them too.

Again, you're making the mistake of confusing the Fire Hawks with the Legion of the Damned. At the time of the Badab War the Fire Hawks were a normal SM chapter, they hadn't suffered the catastrophe that would make them the LoTD, so any comparisons with existing LoTD rules are redundant and a waste of time, as they are not the same army.

 

 

The Sons of Medusa are descended from the Iron Hands judging by their colour scheme, chapter badge and name. Yet their traits are nothing like the iron hands and they have Flesh Over Steel!

That's your personal opinion. It's never been stated one way or the the other whether the Sons of Medusa are Iron Hands descendants. So far as I can see, the only link is the name of the IH homeworld. I see nothing in the green and white colour scheme to link them to the black Iron Hands, and nothing in the skull with an iron halo symbol to link them to the spread hand symbol of the Iron Hands... the closest link I can manage is that the word 'Iron' is in 'Iron Halo' and 'Iron Hands' and that's pretty damn tenuous at best.

 

Regarding the traits, who says any Iron Hand descendant has to be a carbon copy of the IH? How boring would it be if every successor chapter was identical to the first founding chapter if claimed geneseed from? It's entirely feasible that millennia of war and different command staff, not to mention a different homeworld and recruits would create an entirely different culture within the chapter. For an excellent DIY example of this, I'd suggest you read SCC's Index Astartes: Brazen Claws to see just how different an IH successor can be.

 

 

 

The Red Scorpions are fanatically devoted to stealth tactics according to 1st ed., even sometimes refusing to fight alongside those chapters that won't use stealth, yet the Badab list gives them pure assault tactics with no option to infiltrate!

I'm afraid you might have mis-interpreted the Red Scorpion fluff slightly. Yes, they have refused to fight alongside other marine chapters, but not because they refused to use stealth. The exact quote is (my emphasis):

 

The Chapter of the Red Scorpions not only sticks strictly to the lore of camouflage handed down from their original founding and embodied in the Codex Imperialis, but views any deviances from this practice as tantamount to heresy. This has led to the Red Scorpions actually refusing to fight alongside other Marine Chapters on a number of occasions - one of the reasons why they were mostly confined to space lane duties during the Badab War." The 'lore of camouflage' referes to the innumerable official or approved color schemes detailed in the Codex Imperialis for use in battle campaigns.

So their refusal to fight is related to the use of unofficial colour schemes, not their allies stealthiness or lack thereof.

 

The Red Scorpions themselves don't always use stealthy tactics - for example, they are responsible for the creation of the LR Helios for seige work - hardly stealthy at all. From Imperial Armour Update:

 

"It was constructed by the Red Scorpions when extra artillery support was needed during the Siege of Helios - it was felt that the Whirlwinds alone could not deliver enough fire into the citadel and the Red Scorpions were unwilling to rely upon Imperial Guard support."

It's also worth noting from the quoted section reagrding the Badab War that they were confined to space lane duties during the Badab War. I'd say in those circumstances, where they're likely to be engaged in heavy ship-to-ship boarding actions that assault tactics would be an absolute necessity. It's also pretty hard to inflitrate during boarding actions wouldn't you say?

 

 

The Exorcists are a recently founded chapter (M40), so they ought to have aspire to glory. They were founded to combat the daemonic, and have higher levels of adrenaline and abnormal levels of serotonin, which would be perfectly represented by furious charge, yet they do not have the right traits. Their background from the armageddon3 website says that when they started fighting their first few missions, they had a squad of grey knights in reserve, yet their Have Faith In Suspicion trait prohibits them from allying with psykers, which rules out all grey knights units!

Actually, they're not a recent founding, and certainly not M40. You claim to have read the official fluff from the Armageddon 3 website, yet apparently missed the fact that the report is dated 013.M36 at which point the first two companies of the chapter had been created.

 

++OT begins++

I also take issue with the statement (that I've seen you make here and elsewhere) that any chapters formed in M40 "ought to have" Aspire to glory. Why? A chapter founded in the early years of M40 has had two thousand years (we're up to 999.M41, remember) to acquire the artifacts and wargear prohibited by the trait. Even with a 26th Founding chapter (250-odd years old) it would be perfectly possible to have any wargear they chose - say the chapter was founded on or close to a Forgeworld or has close ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus... they're not going to be going short of fancy wargear are they?

++OT ends++

 

As to the Grey Knight issue - the GKs were held in reserve in case the Exorcists re-succumbed to daemonic influence, not to assist them in the battle. It also only mentions that the Gks were present at that one mission, not the "first few". The report implies that the chapter would be under 'careful monitoring' for some time, which to me gives them every reason for them not to want to ally with psykers - you have someone subjecting you to repeated psychic and/or daemonic testing and you're gonna get sick of it after a while...

 

 

You're right. I can't prove that the Space Sharks have been given the wrong traits. But I can demonstrate that the Badab War leaflet clashes with just about every major source of fluff ever produced by GW. That's why I have such contempt for this leaflet as a source of reliable information.

Unfortunately, it seems your 'demonstration' needs a little more research...

 

 

As for the Space Shark traits, I recommend that you use whatever you want, but preferably try to stay in character. Taking the trait that allows acute senses is a good idea, as sharks are infamous for their ability to smell a few drops pf blood underwater from several miles away. I also think that no mercy, no respite is a good idea too, given the reputation of sharks for ferocity. If I was using them, I would go for:

 

No Mercy, No Respite, See, But Don

[Codexmaker]

The Executioners are one of the only chapters that wear camouflage. Infiltration and stealth are very important to them, yet the Badab War leaflet does not allow them to infiltrate. Clashes with 1st ed.

 

Not sure where you're getting this from. I've never read anywhere that the Executioners "are one of the only chapters that wear camouflage". Since you seem so keen on quoting 1st ed, you'll surely be aware that every chapter used camouflage back then. Under current fluff, the See, but don't be seen trait states that many chapters use stealth in various forms (such as camo) to gain an advantage, again, not limiting it's use to the Executioners.

 

Some chapters used camouflage more than others, notably the executioners and the red scorpions that I know of. Their fluff hasn't changed since then, whereas you'll see fewer references to the other chapters using camouflage these days.

 

It's also worth nothing that just because a chapter uses camo, doesn't automatically mean they are going to infiltrate. The IG paint Baneblades in camouflage, but you don't see many infiltrating Baneblades, do you?

But the Executioners and Red Scorpions have a history of using camo more than others even back in 1st ed. when camo use was common. Under more recent fluff, it has been pointed out by GW that many chapters have bright uniforms and avoid camouflage because they consider it a form of cowardice. This is probably the origin of the Have Pride In Your Colours trait. The fact that the Executioners and the Red Scorpions still utilise camo marks them out as being more pro-stealth than the average chapter.

 

The I.G. camo all their tanks to reduce the accuracy of high altitude air strikes, it's for a different purpose.

 

The Tiger Claws (aka the Red Corsairs) have never had access to true grit and have never had more than the usual number of assault squads. They also have access to bike squadrons as normal. This is according to their codex entry in 2nd ed. chaos codex.

 

The Tiger Claws and the Red Corsairs are not the same organisation. We all know the Tiger Claws became the Red Corsairs after the Badab War, but the traits list in the Badab .pdf are for the Tiger Claws at the time of the Badab War. Does it not occur to you that the organisation of a renegade band of mercenaries might be ever so slightly different to that of a chapter of Space Marines? Even if they are in the process of rebelling against the Imperium, they still have the compostion and resources of a SM chapter.

 

The 2nd ed. codex chaos included a list for the Red Corsairs. That list mentioned that although the red corsairs are drawn from many many chapters, the veterans and terminators are all from the first company of the Astral Claws. If the Astral Claws had true grit and more than the usual number of assault squads, it would have been represented by the veterans keeping those skills and perhaps having elite assault squads as a choice. Their first company remained pretty much the same (they were drawn from codex: space marines at no additional cost) at the 'present' time.

 

I'm also not sure what relevance the 2nd ed rules have on this discussion. We're in 4th edition now, the rules from 2nd ed are redundant. I also fail to see the point of your comment on bike squads. Where in the Badab .pdf file does it say they can't take bike squads?

Their character shouldn't really change much from 2nd ed. unless they get new fluff saying otherwise. It says they have Eye To Eye, so no bike squads.

 

The Fire Hawks (aka Legion of the Damned) have never had the option of taking 2 special weapons nor have they ever had furious charge, according to their unit entries in 2nd and 3rd ed., as well as their codexes in 2nd, 3rd and 4th ed. They also have access to bike squadrons and attack bikes, and have some very good models for them too.

Again, you're making the mistake of confusing the Fire Hawks with the Legion of the Damned. At the time of the Badab War the Fire Hawks were a normal SM chapter, they hadn't suffered the catastrophe that would make them the LoTD, so any comparisons with existing LoTD rules are redundant and a waste of time, as they are not the same army.

 

They have the same organisation, they just don't have their invulnerable save and deep strike yet, plus the consequnces of being cut off from their support (no land speeders etc.), If the Fire Hawks were allowed to have 2 special weapons in their tac squads, there's no reason for the lotd to do otherwise. If the Fire Hawks had the furious charge skill, then the Legion of The Damned would still have it too.

 

The Sons of Medusa are descended from the Iron Hands judging by their colour scheme, chapter badge and name. Yet their traits are nothing like the iron hands and they have Flesh Over Steel!

That's your personal opinion. It's never been stated one way or the the other whether the Sons of Medusa are Iron Hands descendants. So far as I can see, the only link is the name of the IH homeworld. I see nothing in the green and white colour scheme to link them to the black Iron Hands, and nothing in the skull with an iron halo symbol to link them to the spread hand symbol of the Iron Hands... the closest link I can manage is that the word 'Iron' is in 'Iron Halo' and 'Iron Hands' and that's pretty damn tenuous at best.

 

What other explanation is there for being called the Sons of Medusa? What other Medusa could they possibly be referring to? Plus throw in the iron halo in the symbol for the cherry on top and the clues are pretty strong.

 

Regarding the traits, who says any Iron Hand descendant has to be a carbon copy of the IH? How boring would it be if every successor chapter was identical to the first founding chapter if claimed geneseed from? It's entirely feasible that millennia of war and different command staff, not to mention a different homeworld and recruits would create an entirely different culture within the chapter. For an excellent DIY example of this, I'd suggest you read SCC's Index Astartes: Brazen Claws to see just how different an IH successor can be.

 

But surely no iron hands successor would volunterily take Flesh Over Steel, as they value machinery over flesh, but I suppose they could have gone through a similar ordeal to the Brazen Claws.

 

The Red Scorpions are fanatically devoted to stealth tactics according to 1st ed., even sometimes refusing to fight alongside those chapters that won't use stealth, yet the Badab list gives them pure assault tactics with no option to infiltrate!

I'm afraid you might have mis-interpreted the Red Scorpion fluff slightly. Yes, they have refused to fight alongside other marine chapters, but not because they refused to use stealth. The exact quote is (my emphasis):

 

The Chapter of the Red Scorpions not only sticks strictly to the lore of camouflage handed down from their original founding and embodied in the Codex Imperialis, but views any deviances from this practice as tantamount to heresy. This has led to the Red Scorpions actually refusing to fight alongside other Marine Chapters on a number of occasions - one of the reasons why they were mostly confined to space lane duties during the Badab War." The 'lore of camouflage' referes to the innumerable official or approved color schemes detailed in the Codex Imperialis for use in battle campaigns.

So their refusal to fight is related to the use of unofficial colour schemes, not their allies stealthiness or lack thereof.

 

Ah. I get it. I thought that the other chapters were opposed to stealth as it was a bit cowardly while the Red Scorpions were devoted to it because it was the word of the codex astartes.

 

It's also worth noting from the quoted section that they were confined to space lane duties during the Badab War. I'd say in those circumstances, where they're likely to be engaged in heavy ship-to-ship boarding actions that assault tactics would be an absolute necessity. It's also pretty hard to inflitrate during boarding actions wouldn't you say?

Yeah.

 

The Exorcists are a recently founded chapter (M40), so they ought to have aspire to glory. They were founded to combat the daemonic, and have higher levels of adrenaline and abnormal levels of serotonin, which would be perfectly represented by furious charge, yet they do not have the right traits. Their background from the armageddon3 website says that when they started fighting their first few missions, they had a squad of grey knights in reserve, yet their Have Faith In Suspicion trait prohibits them from allying with psykers, which rules out all grey knights units!

Actually, they're not a recent founding, and certainly not M40. You claim to have read the official fluff from the Armageddon 3 website, yet apparently missed the fact that the report is dated 013.M36 at which point the first two companies of the chapter had been created.

 

I was quoting ironhands.com. He's normally really reliable. Besides, I usually skip the stardates as just a bunch of numbers, so when ironhands said they were M40, I didn't remember reading otherwise.

 

++OT begins++

I also take issue with the statement (that I've seen you make here and elsewhere) that any chapters formed in M40 "ought to have" Aspire to glory. Why? A chapter founded in the early years of M40 has had two thousand years (we're up to 999.M41, remember) to acquire the artifacts and wargear prohibited by the trait. Even with a 26th Founding chapter (250-odd years old) it would be perfectly possible to have any wargear they chose - say the chapter was founded on or close to a Forgeworld or has close ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus... they're not going to be going short of fancy wargear are they?

++OT ends++

 

Then you underestimate how rare terminator suits and relics are. Even with close ties to the ad. mech it'll take a while before they acquire some relics. Besides, if M40 foundings aren't Aspire To Glory, then what are?

 

As to the Grey Knight issue - the GKs were held in reserve in case the Exorcists re-succumbed to daemonic influence, not to assist them in the battle. It also only mentions that the Gks were present at that one mission, not the "first few". The report implies that the chapter would be under 'careful monitoring' for some time, which to me gives them every reason for them not to want to ally with psykers - you have someone subjecting you to repeated psychic and/or daemonic testing and you're gonna get sick of it after a while...

I just don't see a chapter dedicated to fighting the daemonic refusing to fight alongside grey knights and psychic inquisitors (which means most of them in my experience) as well as not using librarians themselves, as psykers are one of the best units you can use against the daemonic. It's just not logical.

 

You're right. I can't prove that the Space Sharks have been given the wrong traits. But I can demonstrate that the Badab War leaflet clashes with just about every major source of fluff ever produced by GW. That's why I have such contempt for this leaflet as a source of reliable information.

Unfortunately, it seems your 'demonstration' needs a little more research...

 

Yours isn't exactly perfect either you know.

 

As for the Space Shark traits, I recommend that you use whatever you want, but preferably try to stay in character. Taking the trait that allows acute senses is a good idea, as sharks are infamous for their ability to smell a few drops pf blood underwater from several miles away. I also think that no mercy, no respite is a good idea too, given the reputation of sharks for ferocity. If I was using them, I would go for:

 

No Mercy, No Respite, See, But Don

[Commissar Molotov]

Some chapters used camouflage more than others, notably the executioners and the red scorpions that I know of. Their fluff hasn't changed since then, whereas you'll see fewer references to the other chapters using camouflage these days.

There is a reference to the Red Scorpions in recent fluff - they created the Land Raider Helios variant. They did so during the Siege of Helios. They were conducting a siege, and had a large amount of artillery available to them. Whilst it doesn't alter the camouflage angle, it shows that the Red Scorpions are capable of more than sneaking.

 

The 2nd ed. codex chaos included a list for the Red Corsairs. That list mentioned that although the red corsairs are drawn from many many chapters, the veterans and terminators are all from the first company of the Astral Claws. If the Astral Claws had true grit and more than the usual number of assault squads, it would have been represented by the veterans keeping those skills and perhaps having elite assault squads as a choice. Their first company remained pretty much the same (they were drawn from codex: space marines at no additional cost) at the 'present' time.

 

But in second edition, rules like true grit and furious charge didn't exist. Therefore they couldn't be assigned to chapters. Does that mean that the Space Wolves shouldn't have it because they didn't in second edition?

 

Their character shouldn't really change much from 2nd ed. unless they get new fluff saying otherwise. It says they have Eye To Eye, so no bike squads.

Eye-to-eye allows an army to still utilise one bike squad.

 

 

They have the same organisation, they just don't have their invulnerable save and deep strike yet, plus the consequnces of being cut off from their support (no land speeders etc.), If the Fire Hawks were allowed to have 2 special weapons in their tac squads, there's no reason for the lotd to do otherwise. If the Fire Hawks had the furious charge skill, then the Legion of The Damned would still have it too.

 

Consequences of a lack of support, such as revered special weapons failing?

 

What other explanation is there for being called the Sons of Medusa? What other Medusa could they possibly be referring to? Plus throw in the iron halo in the symbol for the cherry on top and the clues are pretty strong.

The Iron Halo is a codex honour badge. As to Medusa, there may be other Medusas that we're not aware of. GW has never officially stated it either way. Regardless, it's possible that a successor chapter could diverge from its' parent.

 

Then you underestimate how rare terminator suits and relics are. Even with close ties to the ad. mech it'll take a while before they acquire some relics. Besides, if M40 foundings aren't Aspire To Glory, then what are?

 

Foundings in M41? Like the twenty-sixth founding, taken from Ironhands.com as 738.M41... only two hundred and sixty years before present time.

 

 

I just don't see a chapter dedicated to fighting the daemonic refusing to fight alongside grey knights and psychic inquisitors (which means most of them in my experience) as well as not using librarians themselves, as psykers are one of the best units you can use against the daemonic. It's just not logical.

 

Psykers are also one of the best weapons to be used by the daemonic. It strikes me as illogical that the Ordo Malleus would allow a powerful psyker (and Space Marine Librarians are amongst the most powerful psykers in the galaxy) to be possessed by a Daemon, a process that even amongst ordinary marines leaves them susceptible to re-possession.

 

 

As far as I can tell, there are two key things to remember regarding the Badab War Traits:

 

1: They are the best fitting for that time period: Given the example of the Red Scorpions, their traits have been altered to show how the Red Scorpions operated in that one campaign, where they conducted boarding actions. It's possible that at other times, they might operate differently, and therefore need different traits. Much like in Battlefleet Gothic there's two Eldar Pirate fleet lists, one for the early war and one for the late war.

 

2: Don't take the traits at face value: 'Flesh over Steel' might not mean the chapter prefers flesh, but that they've lost most of their armoured support due to peculiar circumstances. 'Aspire to Glory' might be applied to the Scythes of the Emperor, not because they're new, but because they've been decimated by the Tyranids and it suits them because most of their fancy gear has been lost.

[jimmythemoose]

Codex maker, are you arguing all of this fluff based on ironhands .com? Have you considered that it might be unaccurate?

[Rogue Trader]

Some chapters used camouflage more than others, notably the executioners and the red scorpions that I know of. Their fluff hasn't changed since then, whereas you'll see fewer references to the other chapters using camouflage these days.

I'd refer you to the trait See, but don't be seen.

 

But the Executioners and Red Scorpions have a history of using camo more than others even back in 1st ed. when camo use was common. Under more recent fluff, it has been pointed out by GW that many chapters have bright uniforms and avoid camouflage because they consider it a form of cowardice. This is probably the origin of the Have Pride In Your Colours trait. The fact that the Executioners and the Red Scorpions still utilise camo marks them out as being more pro-stealth than the average chapter.

The 'cowardice' fluff was 2nd ed. This is 4th ed. The fact that ther Have pride in your colours trait exists means that, yes, there many are chapters that distain the use of camo, but the very existance of See, but don't be seen means that there are also many chapters who do use camo.

 

 

The I.G. camo all their tanks to reduce the accuracy of high altitude air strikes, it's for a different purpose.

Not really. The purpose of all camouflage is to break up the outline of the target, be that Space Marine, Tank or Imperial Guardman. Just because you wear camo doesn't mean you're automatically entitled to infiltrate, or even that you would want to. Wearing camo is an equally valid tactic even standing in the middle of a field firing your gun - it breaks up the outline, making you harder to hit.

 

The 2nd ed. codex chaos included a list for the Red Corsairs. That list mentioned that although the red corsairs are drawn from many many chapters, the veterans and terminators are all from the first company of the Astral Claws. If the Astral Claws had true grit and more than the usual number of assault squads, it would have been represented by the veterans keeping those skills and perhaps having elite assault squads as a choice. Their first company remained pretty much the same (they were drawn from codex: space marines at no additional cost) at the 'present' time.

The 2nd ed codex. You shoot your own argument down right there True Grit didn't exist as a rule in 2nd ed, so how was it supposed to be included? It's a change in the rules allowing a closer representation of the character of the Astral Claws chapter.

 

Saying the vets are former astral claws in no way equates to them retaining the same company structure, and even though selections from C: SM were valid, that's only squad level organisation...

 

 

Their character shouldn't really change much from 2nd ed. unless they get new fluff saying otherwise. It says they have Eye To Eye, so no bike squads.

Again, not sure where you're getting that from. The Eye to eye trait allows 0-1 bike squads.

 

 

They have the same organisation, they just don't have their invulnerable save and deep strike yet, plus the consequnces of being cut off from their support (no land speeders etc.), If the Fire Hawks were allowed to have 2 special weapons in their tac squads, there's no reason for the lotd to do otherwise. If the Fire Hawks had the furious charge skill, then the Legion of The Damned would still have it too.

Not at all. From WD99:

 

All ranks and companies were abolished, most of the chapter's officers were already dead and the remaining warriors were too few to make up a fully functioning chapter hierarchy. All brothers were to be equal before death - levelled by the certainty of their assured extinction. The warriors decided to expend their lives attacking enemies wherever they could be found. The disease had robbed them of their sanity, but not their loyalty! And their condition gave them powers - powers that endow them with incredible fighting abilities...

 

The Legion has no formal organisation - it fights as a single body of troops. The only tactic possible to such a formation is to steam-roller over the enemy by a steady advance.

 

Facing death - the final equalizer - the marines' command decisions are made by collective divination. Devices, emblems and personal badges are applied over the armour by individuals; they are not indicative of rank or function...

 

The vast stocks of weaponry available to the Fire Hawks were destroyed along with the rest of the fleet. The surviving brothers have only a limited range of weapons, and most are armed identically. Powered armour and weapons are of standard type.

they have no structure, no support, no human back up staff, nothing. The LotD bear absolutely no resemblance to the Fire Hawks

[Rogue Trader]

++Apologies for the double tap - too many quotes for one post++

 

 

What other explanation is there for being called the Sons of Medusa? What other Medusa could they possibly be referring to? Plus throw in the iron halo in the symbol for the cherry on top and the clues are pretty strong.

There are infinite possibilities - they couls have taken their name from the mytical monster, the first chapter master could have been named Medusa. Are you also saying that any chapter whose symbol includes an Iron Halo (a symbol of honour and bravery, nothing at all to do with IH symbology) must be an IH successor?

 

 

I was quoting ironhands.com. He's normally really reliable. Besides, I usually skip the stardates as just a bunch of numbers, so when ironhands said they were M40, I didn't remember reading otherwise.

ironhands.com is a good site, but it does have more than a few inaccuracies... always best to stick to the official word where possible :rolleyes:

 

 

Then you underestimate how rare terminator suits and relics are. Even with close ties to the ad. mech it'll take a while before they acquire some relics. Besides, if M40 foundings aren't Aspire To Glory, then what are?

Um... 26th Founding? I'd say a chapter created in 738.M41 is much younger than an M40 one. Besides, Aspire to glory doesn't always mean the chapter is new - it can represent a post devastation chapter as well.

 

 

I just don't see a chapter dedicated to fighting the daemonic refusing to fight alongside grey knights and psychic inquisitors (which means most of them in my experience) as well as not using librarians themselves, as psykers are one of the best units you can use against the daemonic. It's just not logical.

I kinda agree with you on this, but I can see the point - psykers are at a much greater risk (and are potentially much more lethal) if the daemonic possession goes wrong, so it makes sense to avoid exposing them to the process...

 

 

Granted, GW supplied those traits, but GW also says that quite a few of them are wrong. The Badab leaflet says yes, but it contradicts a lot of other, more established, background information released by GW. What we have here is a few people from GW saying this is how it is and quite a few people from GW saying oh no it's not.

Again, this is merely the case of new rulesets allowing a better representation of the character of a chapter, in ways that weren't available in previous editions, because those rules weren't in place...

 

 

The duty is to the fluff, but because the source is pretty obscure and somewhat dubious when compared to the rest of the fluff, it isn't exactly set in stone.[/i]

As has already been establish - there is no official fluff for the Space Sharks (or many of the other Badab chapters) except for a name and colour scheme, so how can the .pdf be wrong?

 

 

Surely a more important point is that it's his army and that players should not feel that everything they do must be official or approved, as I've read many times when reading WD or the GW website. It's his army, let him decide what he wants to do with it. If he feels uncomfortable with these traits then I have no problem with letting him change them. Why should you?[/i]

I agree absolutely and 100%, and if you look through my posting record, you'll find I always stress that people are free to do what they want with their own armies. The point I was trying to get through to you was that when Cpt_Tiberius asked about Tournament play, the advice you gave was pretty far off base, if he was wanting to use the Space Sharks as Space Sharks. Under those circumstances at a tournament he has to either stick to the traits given by GW or use straight vanilla codex rules. It's one thing at home in a friendly game with your mates, but tournaments are very very different

[Codexmaker]

Some chapters used camouflage more than others, notably the executioners and the red scorpions that I know of. Their fluff hasn't changed since then, whereas you'll see fewer references to the other chapters using camouflage these days.

 

There is a reference to the Red Scorpions in recent fluff - they created the Land Raider Helios variant. They did so during the Siege of Helios. They were conducting a siege, and had a large amount of artillery available to them. Whilst it doesn't alter the camouflage angle, it shows that the Red Scorpions are capable of more than sneaking.

 

I knew they were in imperial armour somewhere! Perhaps they should have See, But Don't Be Seen, and Scions of Mars to represent their inventiveness?

 

The 2nd ed. codex chaos included a list for the Red Corsairs. That list mentioned that although the red corsairs are drawn from many many chapters, the veterans and terminators are all from the first company of the Astral Claws. If the Astral Claws had true grit and more than the usual number of assault squads, it would have been represented by the veterans keeping those skills and perhaps having elite assault squads as a choice. Their first company remained pretty much the same (they were drawn from codex: space marines at no additional cost) at the 'present' time.

 

But in second edition, rules like true grit and furious charge didn't exist. Therefore they couldn't be assigned to chapters. Does that mean that the Space Wolves shouldn't have it because they didn't in second edition?

 

Back then SW had WS 5 instead, but I suppose you're right.

 

Their character shouldn't really change much from 2nd ed. unless they get new fluff saying otherwise. It says they have Eye To Eye, so no bike squads.

 

Eye-to-eye allows a chapter to still utilise one bike squad.

 

Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that Eye To Eye meant no bike squads (apart from scout bikers) and no land speeders.

 

 

They have the same organisation, they just don't have their invulnerable save and deep strike yet, plus the consequnces of being cut off from their support (no land speeders etc.), If the Fire Hawks were allowed to have 2 special weapons in their tac squads, there's no reason for the lotd to do otherwise. If the Fire Hawks had the furious charge skill, then the Legion of The Damned would still have it too.

 

Consequences of support, such as revered special weapons failing?

 

Hmmm...not really. Special weapons are a heck of a lot easier to maintain than vehicles.

 

What other explanation is there for being called the Sons of Medusa? What other Medusa could they possibly be referring to? Plus throw in the iron halo in the symbol for the cherry on top and the clues are pretty strong.

 

The Iron Halo is a codex honour badge. As to Medusa, there may be other Medusas that we're not aware of. GW has never officially stated it either way. Regardless, it's possible that a successor chapter could diverge from its' parent.

 

It just seems like too much of a coincidence though doesn't it? Besides, they're not called Sons of Medusa VII, so it's unlikely to be a different planet, and it's somewhat unlikely that Medusa is the name of a person in this case, what with it being a girl's name.

 

Then you underestimate how rare terminator suits and relics are. Even with close ties to the ad. mech it'll take a while before they acquire some relics. Besides, if M40 foundings aren't Aspire To Glory, then what are?

 

Foundings in M41? Like the twenty-sixth founding, taken from Ironhands.com as 738.M41... only two hundred and sixty years before present time.

 

Yeah but that narrows it down to about 1 chapter, the Storm Giants as far as I know, which doesn't seem to me to be what GW intended when allowing it to be taken in such a wide variety of possibilities. I'm trying to persuade more people to seriously consider taking it, as most of the disadvantage can be nullified by taking a trait that adds another elites choice to your army.

 

I just don't see a chapter dedicated to fighting the daemonic refusing to fight alongside grey knights and psychic inquisitors (which means most of them in my experience) as well as not using librarians themselves, as psykers are one of the best units you can use against the daemonic. It's just not logical.

 

Psykers are also one of the best weapons to be used by the daemonic. It strikes me as illogical that the Ordo Malleus would allow a powerful psyker (and Space Marine Librarians are amongst the most powerful psykers in the galaxy) to be possessed by a Daemon, a process that even amongst ordinary marines leaves them susceptible to re-possession.

 

True, but the Exorcists were taught in the ways of the Grey Knights, a chapter that has always resisted everything the daemonic can throw at them. I would've thought that they might use an inducted grey knight as a librarian instead of exposing a librarian to the daemonic. Makes sense.

 

As far as I can tell, there are two key things to remember regarding the Badab War Traits:

 

1: They are the best fitting for that time period: Given the example of the Red Scorpions, their traits have been altered to show how the Red Scorpions operated in that one campaign, where they conducted boarding actions. It's possible that at other times, they might operate differently, and therefore need different traits. Much like in Battlefleet Gothic there's two Eldar Pirate fleet lists, one for the early war and one for the late war.

 

Which kind of undermines the whole 'use these traits or none at all' argument really. Perhaps this offers a compromise, these traits represent the chapters at the time of the Badab war, but since then lots of interesting stuff has happened to these chapters, thus changing their way of war and therefore their traits too.

 

2: Don't take the traits at face value: 'Flesh over Steel' might not mean the chapter prefers flesh, but that they've lost most of their armoured support due to peculiar circumstances. 'Aspire to Glory' might be applied to the Scythes of the Emperor, not because they're new, but because they've been decimated by the Tyranids and it suits them because most of their fancy gear has been lost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmmm... You have a point, but it doesn't really affect the majority of the points made above.

[Codexmaker]

Codex maker, are you arguing all of this fluff based on ironhands .com? Have you considered that it might be unaccurate?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yaknow, I'm starting to get that impression. I trusted it because it quoted all of its sources and avoided including DIY chapters, so the whole thing looked professional. I'd've never found out otherwise if it wasn't for you guys.

[Commissar Molotov]

I knew they were in imperial armour somewhere! Perhaps they should have See, But Don't Be Seen, and Scions of Mars to represent their inventiveness?

But then they'd only be able to take a three-wound techmarine and not a Commander, and then people would complain about how those traits don't mesh with the fluff. :rolleyes:

 

Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that Eye To Eye meant no bike squads (apart from scout bikers) and no land speeders.

 

If you check page 44 of Codex: Space Marines, Bike Squads, Attack Bike Squads and Land Speeder Squadrons are a 0-1 choice.

 

 

Hmmm...not really. Special weapons are a heck of a lot easier to maintain than vehicles.

I give over to Rogue Trader; his quote explains things better regarding the changes in organisation adopted by the Legion of the Damned.

 

 

Yeah but that narrows it down to about 1 chapter, the Storm Giants as far as I know, which doesn't seem to me to be what GW intended when allowing it to be taken in such a wide variety of possibilities. I'm trying to persuade more people to seriously consider taking it, as most of the disadvantage can be nullified by taking a trait that adds another elites choice to your army.

 

One known chapter. I highly doubt the High Lords authorised a marine founding for only one chapter to be created.

 

 

1: They are the best fitting for that time period: Given the example of the Red Scorpions, their traits have been altered to show how the Red Scorpions operated in that one campaign, where they conducted boarding actions. It's possible that at other times, they might operate differently, and therefore need different traits. Much like in Battlefleet Gothic there's two Eldar Pirate fleet lists, one for the early war and one for the late war.

 

Which kind of undermines the whole 'use these traits or none at all' argument really. Perhaps this offers a compromise, these traits represent the chapters at the time of the Badab war, but since then lots of interesting stuff has happened to these chapters, thus changing their way of war and therefore their traits too.

 

But they are the only traits GW has given them. I might want to use different traits for the Crimson Fists after their fortress monastery blew up, but in a tournament setting, I would have to use the traits in the codex, or straight vanilla. That's the major issue here.

[Codexmaker]

Some chapters used camouflage more than others, notably the executioners and the red scorpions that I know of. Their fluff hasn't changed since then, whereas you'll see fewer references to the other chapters using camouflage these days.

I'd refer you to the trait See, but don't be seen.

 

At which point I curse the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Home Office for banishing me to Thailand where I can't read my codexes, but that's a story for another time...

 

But the Executioners and Red Scorpions have a history of using camo more than others even back in 1st ed. when camo use was common. Under more recent fluff, it has been pointed out by GW that many chapters have bright uniforms and avoid camouflage because they consider it a form of cowardice. This is probably the origin of the Have Pride In Your Colours trait. The fact that the Executioners and the Red Scorpions still utilise camo marks them out as being more pro-stealth than the average chapter.

The 'cowardice' fluff was 2nd ed. This is 4th ed. The fact that ther Have pride in your colours trait exists means that, yes, there many are chapters that distain the use of camo, but the very existance of See, but don't be seen means that there are also many chapters who do use camo.

 

So, most chapters occasionally use camo, See, But Don't Be Seen represents those who do more than the usual amount of camo and become experts at it, wheres Have Pride In Your Colours represents those who have gone the other way. Interesting.

 

The I.G. camo all their tanks to reduce the accuracy of high altitude air strikes, it's for a different purpose.

Not really. The purpose of all camouflage is to break up the outline of the target, be that Space Marine, Tank or Imperial Guardman. Just because you wear camo doesn't mean you're automatically entitled to infiltrate, or even that you would want to. Wearing camo is an equally valid tactic even standing in the middle of a field firing your gun - it breaks up the outline, making you harder to hit.

 

So why don't all marines use it all of the time?

 

The 2nd ed. codex chaos included a list for the Red Corsairs. That list mentioned that although the red corsairs are drawn from many many chapters, the veterans and terminators are all from the first company of the Astral Claws. If the Astral Claws had true grit and more than the usual number of assault squads, it would have been represented by the veterans keeping those skills and perhaps having elite assault squads as a choice. Their first company remained pretty much the same (they were drawn from codex: space marines at no additional cost) at the 'present' time.

The 2nd ed codex. You shoot your own argument down right there True Grit didn't exist as a rule in 2nd ed, so how was it supposed to be included? It's a change in the rules allowing a closer representation of the character of the Astral Claws chapter.

 

Okay, but what about the veteran assault squads? Why have they suddenly appeared when they could have been included in the list without making new rules in 2nd ed.?

 

Their character shouldn't really change much from 2nd ed. unless they get new fluff saying otherwise. It says they have Eye To Eye, so no bike squads.

Again, not sure where you're getting that from. The Eye to eye trait allows 0-1 bike squads.

 

I'm getting it from hazy memory of my brief time with my codexes many months ago. :rolleyes: Home Office, :D British Embassy, mutter mutter. I thought that Flesh Over Steel made a lot of units 0-1, but Eye To Eye made a few units unavailable.

 

They have the same organisation, they just don't have their invulnerable save and deep strike yet, plus the consequnces of being cut off from their support (no land speeders etc.), If the Fire Hawks were allowed to have 2 special weapons in their tac squads, there's no reason for the lotd to do otherwise. If the Fire Hawks had the furious charge skill, then the Legion of The Damned would still have it too.

Not at all. From WD99:

 

...

 

The vast stocks of weaponry available to the Fire Hawks were destroyed along with the rest of the fleet. The surviving brothers have only a limited range of weapons, and most are armed identically. Powered armour and weapons are of standard type.

they have no structure, no support, no human back up staff, nothing. The LotD bear absolutely no resemblance to the Fire Hawks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That explains the disappearance of Cleanse and Purify, but how did they forget their ferocity imbued by the No Mercy, No Respite trait? They didn't lose their skills or training with the sickness.

[Commissar Molotov]

So why don't all marines use it all of the time?

 

Because some marines don't believe in camouflage. They believe that the enemy should see them coming, to see the hammer of the Emperor's justice falling upon them. To them, camouflage is cowardice - no 'real' marine should try to hide from enemy fire.

[Rogue Trader]

So why don't all marines use it all of the time?

Precisely for the reason that some (and I stress some) consider it cowardly. Others may choose not to use camo because the sight of a seven foot tall superhuman killing machine striding across the battlefield in bright red armour is enough to scare the bejebus out of most things with half a brain! Intimidation is a big part of what the space marines are about...

 

 

Okay, but what about the veteran assault squads? Why have they suddenly appeared when they could have been included in the list without making new rules in 2nd ed.?

As I've said several times, the new rules allow GW's games developers to add layers to the fluff for various chapters. As I've also said several times, the rules from 2nd edition which you keep waving about are for the Red Corsairs. No such rules were created for the Astral Claws, because no real fluff existed for them, apart from the fact the remnants of the chapter became the Red Corsairs. The existance of elite Assault Squads in the Astral Claws in no way means the Red Corsairs should have them... given that the 'Claws were all but decimated, it's not beyond the realms of possibility to think that the veteran assault squads were at the forefront of the fighting and subsequently took the heaviest losses, leaving none of them alive to become red corsairs...

 

 

That explains the disappearance of Cleanse and Purify, but how did they forget their ferocity imbued by the No Mercy, No Respite trait? They didn't lose their skills or training with the sickness.

No, they lost their minds. Again from WD99:

 

Those who remained were no longer sane. Pain and despair had driven even their hardened minds beyond the point of rationality. Doomed to agonising deaths, they gradually became obsessed with their fate. Now they only wanted to die. But they were still marines, still loyal to the Emperor and humanity. They would not die without a purpose.

It's not beyond belief to assume they lost some skills and/or training along with their sanity. As the LotD, their modus operandi changed to that of the the pinpoint surgical strike, of being in 'the right place at the right time'. That requires all sorts of different tactics to normal warfare.

 

To be honest, arguing over the LotD is the most academic of all the points we've made this afternoon - the events that changed the Fire Hawks changed them in so many different ways incomprensible even to the Imperium's finest minds that to even try and establish any similarity between the FH and the LotD is a futile task.

[Vodunius]

Codexmaker, is there any possibility you could edit your posts so the quotes actually come up as quotes? it would make it alot easier to read

 

regarding the officiality of the assigned traits: i'm fairly certain when these were first put up that the guy who organised the weekend said on the Badab War MSN group that these traits were house rules made by the campaign organisers specifically for that weekend ~ that they are not GW (40k design team) sanctioned rules (eg: no turning up at a regular 40k tournement and expecting to get a free squad)

 

as for the 26th founding: most foundings are believed to be about 30-50 chapters strong ~ just because GW has only confirmed 2(3) members of the 26th doesnt mean that is all there are

 

Exorcists: the date is probably wrong, the actual text says they are part of the 13th (Dark) founding ~ the 21st founding took place in M36, it seems highly unlikely that there would have been 8 foundings in 1 millenium (especially as the 21st, the largest founding since the 2nd founding also took place then: and BEFORE the Age of Apostasy)

 

as for Sons of Medusa.. call me stupid but i dont recall seeing a halo emblem on an Iron Hand ~ are you thinking of the cog/gear that their clan and chapter badges include? both NovaMarines and Sons of Medusa had their chapter badges changed to a Skull & Halo at the same time, and the NM are certainly not an Iron Hands successor ~ also there is at least one picture of an Ultramarine veteran/officer with a Medusa head on his shoulderpad (big art pic in one of the 2e core books)

 

also the Imperium has a million words ~ its perfectly possible that more than one planet was named after a specific old terran mythical creature