Tau Marines

[Commissar Molotov]

Some other notes:

 

- Having Gibraltar as a homeworld will cause you major problems. Your chapter becomes a sworn enemy of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Not only because you use xenos kit and all the jazz, but because you're occupying a blessed forgeworld, that the AdMech want back.

 

- How exactly would a group of say ~700 marines get two ships (especially battle barges) back into orbit after they crashed? It seems difficult for me to accept. Perhaps the Tau sent them on their way back to Macragge.

[Hagar_The_Bear]

What part of "Doesn't play well with others" do people not understand. Marines barely get along with other Imperials for the most part. The war against the alien and the heretic is a war of ideas. Ideas are the core of any civilization and outside ideas create question and doubt. Such things must not be allowed. The Tau way of life is anethema to the Imperial creed. The Tau are an aggressive civilzation that has made moves to absorb Imperial held worlds. They have even managed to draw men to their cause and way of life. From that standpoint they are no different than Chaos.

 

Faith in the Emperor. Faith in Russ. Faith in yourself. Faith in the Empire of Mankind. There is no room for anything else.

[DraXaus]

typical Imperial dogma, but how dose that add to our conversation here?

[Det Gr]

It adds to the onversation by clearing up that fact that Marines and Tau does not play well together.

[DraXaus]

of course it dose, but this isn't your normal Ultramarine sussessor chatper, fighting the good fight. Believe me, this is far more interesting...

[Lion in the Stars]

Do I need to find the pic of a marine with a shuricat?

 

I want to make/build some of these myself, but... too many other projects on the forge.

[neosonichdghg]

Thanks a lot, Molotov. I'm really sorry, it just seemed like you didn't read the explanations. Again, my bad.

 

I'll try to address the issues you put forth in order. The fluff will be updated soon.

 

With the Tyranids, thanks. Like I said, I've never been really good with dates. I love your idea with the Inquisitors, would it be reasonable for the Dragons to live on an otherwise inhabited planet? Is Macragge inhabited other than the Ultramarines?

 

Yes, they are a Dark Angels successor. In the original fluff, they were a spaceborne chapter even in the beginning and I had a really wierd experiment thing. I thought it would be more logical for a spaceborne chapter to be a Dark Angels successor.

 

I didn't really have a specific planet in mind for their training, it seems like it wouldn't matter. Could you suggest a suitable world from the Gothic Sector?

 

They don't use fighters? Oh. I'll work on that, but some rewording should probably fix the problem.

 

With the psykers, I was referring to the Navigators. I didn't know they weren't connected with the Warp like Librarians and such. So, I guess the Navigator should just be killed in a Warp drive failure like I originally said.

 

Thanks for the information on the Warp storm. What will probably happen in the new version is that the shields are weakened, and the ships are attacked, but the demons are unexpectedly chased off by others wanting to corrupt the Marines rather than kill them.

 

Gribaltar...I don't see anything wrong with using the name for a couple reasons. First, the colony of Gibraltar is not exactly prominent in history. Second, I did change the name slightly, and the sound of it is significantly different. Third, it's not a reference to the colony any more than Terminators are a reference to Ahnold. I did actually change the world to an agri-world rather than a forge world, I just forgot to update the fluff before I moved it.

 

 

I did intend for the Orks to attack off planet, although I agree it's not very clear. Maybe they should be already on the planet, though. My original idea was that the Dragons spent quite a while on Gribaltar, away from Imperial propaganda, and then were surprised when the Tau's behavior did not fit with what they had been told in the past.

 

When they get back...yeah, I do have real problems there. I'll have to think about that one. Any suggestions?

 

All right, the final deluge. They went to the Tau basically because Chaos actively denounces the Emperor and because the Tau helped them in the past. That becomes more significant because their relationship with the Tau is simply one of convinence. Basically, they're hanging with the Tau while they recover and until they figure out how to get at the High Lords. They absoltutely loathe the Lords, who are viewed as the source of the corruption in the first place. They think the Imperium has fallen basically because it is so oppressive. In their eyes, the Emperor's ideal was a harmonious system. That sounds stupid, but it seems like the Imperials are just telling everyone that's what they still have. So...all right, I'm having trouble explaining this one. Do you see what I'm saying?

 

The timing...you mentioned that the Damocles Crusade is only a few hundred years old. But that wasn't when the Tau started, was it? It seems not unreasonable for the Dragons to meet the Tau before the Crusade. But maybe I'm wrong.

 

I like the idea that maybe the Tau helped with their ships. This would further cement the idea of the Tau as a possible resource later on.

 

Thanks again for your input. You're a credit to the forum, sorry I snapped at you.

 

EDIT: Lion, do you mean shuriken catapault? Maybe you could find a pic on the GW website, try the classic figures.

[Commissar Molotov]

We all misunderstand people from time to time. With a text-based format, it's inevitable. I find it helps to presume the best of people on forums, however.

 

-------------------

 

Yes, it is possible for a marine chapter to make a home on a planet inhabited by normal humans. Most chapters do. They tend to recruit from those humans.

 

Being a Dark Angels successor has nothing to do with being in space. The Black Templars are space-born, for example. Gene-seed (DNA) doesn't have much of an impact on what equipment they have.

 

I would stay away from the Gothic sector, which is fairly well-detailed, from the BFG books.

 

I must confess you'd just written Gibraltar. I didn't see your slight alteration in spelling. I must confess it rankles a bit, but it's not so bad. A billion worlds to name; humans are going to be unoriginal sooner or later.

 

Staying away from Imperial propaganda matters little. Those inside the chapter carry out the propaganda. Chaplains especially.

 

All right, the final deluge. They went to the Tau basically because Chaos actively denounces the Emperor and because the Tau helped them in the past. That becomes more significant because their relationship with the Tau is simply one of convinence. Basically, they're hanging with the Tau while they recover and until they figure out how to get at the High Lords. They absoltutely loathe the Lords, who are viewed as the source of the corruption in the first place. They think the Imperium has fallen basically because it is so oppressive. In their eyes, the Emperor's ideal was a harmonious system. That sounds stupid, but it seems like the Imperials are just telling everyone that's what they still have. So...all right, I'm having trouble explaining this one. Do you see what I'm saying?

 

You might need to consider stating that your marines don't particularly like the Tau, or don't like working with them, or the like. The fundamental thing most people will say to you time and again is that marines don't like aliens, and they don't like working with aliens. There's a reason that Kroot Mercenaries aren't allowed to ally with the Space Marines (rules-wise).

 

So if you can turn it around to say that your marines don't like the Tau, but need refuge, then you're on a better ground fluff-wise.

[neosonichdghg]

Yeah, there were a lot of things I didn't make clear. I'll fix it soon.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no!

 

This topic should be killed, and I wish that players would pay attention to the fluff and stop being such awful power gamers. You only want Marines to shield your Tau from hand to hand, because if you gave a :lol: about the fluff at all you wouldnt even be thinking about Space Marines working for Tau. The "reward" that has been talked about so far isnt an enriching story or a new interesting idea, but rather an overwhelming edge on the table top.

 

I would never play against anyone who was trying to use Space Marines as Tau mercs. My friends and I would never allow such an army to be present in our gaming group. I'm not the only one who feels this way. And its not just because were fluff nazis. Its because youre trying to powergame and that wrecks everything. You have a Kroot meatscreen, heck you can even have Gue'la in your army if you want. No marines, not now, not ever. If you said this to a GW games designer they'd slap you if they could get away with it.

 

Does anybody think its reasonable to start saying that the Imperial Guard are recruiting Orks and so take Orks and Guard as the same army? Or Eldar and tyranids? No :P way!!!!! Then why does anybody think that its at all reasonable to mix Marines and Tau?! Why? Why would anyone even think of such a thing, and how could anybody support this! The only way that I'd ever say that it was ok with me or anyone who takes this game even moderately serioulsly is if you planned on just painting up the models and then playing with them alone in your basement, all by yourself, and set up little tea parties and held one in each hand and shook them while pretending to speak for them in funny voices.

 

No way. Never ever. Space Marines will turn to chaos before they'll turn to Xenos species. It will never happen and would be cheating of the worst sort on the table top.

[Ferrata]

Im not sure if they ever mentioned using SM as allies to Tau on the Table Top, just in fluff. Warmaster Phthisis its down to the individual what is correct or not for themselves. I'm not a fan of this project, but after my first few comments I have left it rather untouched because my views have been voiced, and they have taken note and continued. There's nothing more I can do besides commenting on what they do write now while ignoring the basic principles I hold against it. Im sure you could have voiced your opinions in a more acceptable manner.

 

Make Liber a happy place, because we are the intellectuals of the Bolter and Chainsword :lol:

 

Ferrata

[Commissar Molotov]

Phthisis, some would call me a 'fluff nazi' too. Some have.

 

But this is the army of a guy you'll never meet. As a poster in Liber, it's best to be reasonable. Your post is inflammatory and doesn't contribute to the issue at hand at all. I personally am against Tau marines. I think neosonichdghg knows that. But I'm trying to help him fit into the 40k universe as best they can, to help him.

 

Perhaps neosonichdghg does want marines to shield his Tau from hand-to-hand. They're two seperate armies, forming two seperate detachments, and would be allowed in a large game. That's not 'cheating' at all.

 

As to whether he 'gave a :lol: about the fluff', he's already made a greater step than most by realising his chapter would be hated, reviled and exterminated. He's even go so far as to say that his marines don't like the Tau, but that they're working alongside them until they can tear the High Lords of Terra down from their false thrones.

 

In that sense, they're not 'Tau Mercs'. Perhaps they're being manipulated by the Tau, but they are not in the employ of the Tau, and circumstances have forced their hand.

 

Please be civil with your arguments, Phthisis. As Ferrata said, this is the civil end of the board.

[Einsatz]

Ouch. My soldiers call my miniatures my "dolls". But, I swear I "never" make them talk in funny voices. :lol:

 

The fluff of the game is constantly evolving. I am against tau and marines, especially marine mercs.

 

However, beastmen used to be good guys. They had little pants and helmets. I even had a beastman standard bearer back in the day. Oh and I had two eldar mercs with bow pistols. My tyranid playing friend still complains that he can't use Zoats anymore. It's fluff it changes. The same as people that want to have "good guy" traitor legions. It's all a personal look at the game.

 

I say try to find a gaming group that is willing to play 2nd ed. rules and use them as allies! :P

 

Better days.

[neosonichdghg]

Wow. I would totally agree with you (apart from the flaming) but this is a case of a simple misunderstanding. I'm not using any Tau. This is just a vanilla Space Marines army converted with Tau bitz and with cool fluff.

 

I repeat, no Tau will be present on the battlefield. Just Marines.

 

On a side note, the two forces rarely even fight together even in the fluff. The Tau guard the borders as usual, and the Dragons are available in the case of a specific target. Basically, the Marines are used by the Tau just like they are used by the Imperium: called in to strike independently at a hardened target. Actually, there is a rather cool peace between the two factions. The Marines trade help for equipment, but they're only staying around until they're ready to pack up and go after the High Lords in some way. It's merely a temporary alliance of convenience.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

Alright. That was very out of character for me. I'm normally a very calm and collected person, and after reading my last post I realized that it read with quite a bit more fire and anger than I had intended. I have to admit that I had intended some fire and anger though, although not to the point to be flaming. I'm sorry if I offended anyone and I'll be more careful to write posts that are more logos than pathos in the future.

 

However, that being said. I have recently dealt with a virtual flood of players trying to create an army out of some kind of Tau-Marine alliance. This has been EXTREMELY frustrating for me as I have been seeing gamers at my local shop showing up with Tau armies, normally unpainted or basecoated at best, fielding one or two squads of their old Ultramarines or Space Wolves armies out in front as a screen for their fire warriors and tanks claiming that the marines had allied themselves with the Tau or were working for them temporarily. I think that many of you would be as disgusted with this turn of events as I am. I refuse to play against such an army, but that isnt as far as it goes. Some of the players have started to expand the Tau-Marine idea into their own armies, taking units from one army and mixing them hap-hazardly with squads from another army and then coming up with some fluff reason why they can do it. All just to make a harder army and make it easier to win. I remember back in the day when people would refuse to fight an Eldar army because it had 3 Wraithlords because it was unfluffy and power gaming. But now, not only am I seeing more and more of this army mish-mash, I'm seeing more and more players saying that its justified because its all about how the player wants to play the game. And they act like there's something wrong with me because I play by the rules and dont mix army lists!

 

I saw a kid yesterday with a Daemonhunters army, fielding Grey Knights and Tau together. Maybe that will explain why I snapped.

 

In my opinion, the thing that makes Warhammer 40K so great isnt the cool models (although they are cool), or the game mechanics, but the story behind the game itself. I love looking at a battlefield and coming up with the stories and the characters behind the models and the scenario. We all know its a game, but how many of us know more about the Warhammer 40K universe than we know about the histories of our own families? People talk about the 40K fluff like its real, and thats not a bad thing. The background and the history and the stories and the heroic imagery are what sucked us in to this hobby in the first place. Many of us were reading 40K novels and codexes for the sheer enjoyment months or years before we ever bought a model. Its no wonder that Games Workshop is so protective over its Intellicetual Property, as that is the very core of the hobby and the community itself.

 

All Space Marines hate all Xenos. I think that was brought up in this post somewhere, and it was brought up in every post Ive seen about the Red Dragons chapter on other sites like the librarium. Even the traitor legions hate all xenos. You would no sooner find the Red Corsairs allying themselves with the Tau than you would the Space Wolves. The one thing that all space marines have in common is their belief in the destiny of humanity. Where, in the past, Space Marines have fought along side alien species, as soon as their mutual enemy was destroyed they turned their bolters on their one-time allies. Space Marines in the current incarnation of the game (meaning forget about Rogue Trader), would never use Xenos equipment. Bolters and power armor and every little piece of their equiment is a holy artefact, their wargear was a gift from the Emperor himself. They would be as loathe to discard their battle gear as they would be to discard their own geneseed. Once again, even the Traitor Legions refuse to use xenos equipment. Quite frankly, the Marine models with Tau wargear is a blatant fluff violation. Marines cooperating with Tau is also a blatant fluff violation as they would be more likely to try to exterminate them. Not only that, but having read the fluff youve created around the Red Dragons, their alliance with the Tau is completely unneccessary.

 

Chapters go rogue. Even the most upstanding chapters refuse to submit to the High Lords on a constant basis. They even refuse the Inquisition and Rogue Traders on a constant basis, and they get away with it on a constant basis. The Blood Angels and Space Wolves refuse to surrender their geneseed to the High Lords. The Dark Angels refuse to reveal their history to the High Lords. Many chapters are not fans of the Inquisiton or the Imperial government. Many chapters believe that the government of the Imperium is corrupt. None of them go running to the enemy to help them "fix" the Imperium. The Tau dont want to see the Imperium repaired, they want to see it consumed into their empire. Thats not what your chapter wants, is it? Your marines sound like they want to help the cause of the Imperium of Man, and so what are they doing collaborating with its enemies instead of exterminating them? Your chapter can dislike the Inquisition and the High Lords and not even be a rouge chapter, as most chapters dont like them either!

 

Neosonichdghg, I have been here keeping track of your DIY chapter since you first decided that you wanted to make your own chapter and your own fluff. I was one of the first people to respond to you on LO when your idea was that they jumped off of the Dragon's Claw in a big cloud and floated over to other ships to board it and me and a couple of others explained to you why that wasnt going to work. I still stand by now what I said to you then (and it appeared that you had taken my advice, but apparently not so), that the best and most rewarding fluff is written inside of the bounds already established, because heroes need limits to be human. Your chapter will be just as interesting, and much more believable, if you foucus on their struggle against the corrupt forces inside the Imperium and forget about coming up with some gimmick. Good and rewarding story telling is about overcoming obstacles, not some new piece of technology or some new way of allying your forces, and using technology or some gimmick like a Tau alliance actually detracts from it and makes it cheap. Then they just pushed a button or got somebody else to fix their problems for them and the human element is erased, your story is made sterile. On top of that, you'll be creating some great fluff, made even greater by its adherence to the style and intent of the 40k universe. You'll have an army that nobody will roll their eyes at or refuse to play against, and the doors for gaming groups will be wide open. But as it is, I'm sorry to say, I know of no gaming groups that are worth their weight in pvc, that would let your army near their tables.

 

I hope you take this to heart.

[Commissar Molotov]

Phthisis, I guess that's the closest you'll offer to an apology, so it's accepted. Whilst the issue of Tau Marines (rightly) stirs up a lot of controversy, civility is the name of the game. There's no need for any fire and anger.

 

However, that being said. I have recently dealt with a virtual flood of players trying to create an army out of some kind of Tau-Marine alliance. This has been EXTREMELY frustrating for me as I have been seeing gamers at my local shop showing up with Tau armies, normally unpainted or basecoated at best, fielding one or two squads of their old Ultramarines or Space Wolves armies out in front as a screen for their fire warriors and tanks claiming that the marines had allied themselves with the Tau or were working for them temporarily. I think that many of you would be as disgusted with this turn of events as I am. I refuse to play against such an army, but that isnt as far as it goes. Some of the players have started to expand the Tau-Marine idea into their own armies, taking units from one army and mixing them hap-hazardly with squads from another army and then coming up with some fluff reason why they can do it. All just to make a harder army and make it easier to win. I remember back in the day when people would refuse to fight an Eldar army because it had 3 Wraithlords because it was unfluffy and power gaming. But now, not only am I seeing more and more of this army mish-mash, I'm seeing more and more players saying that its justified because its all about how the player wants to play the game. And they act like there's something wrong with me because I play by the rules and dont mix army lists!

These armies are in blatant violation of the rules, nevermind the fluff. A Tau army with one or two marine squads isn't legal and so you have no obligation to fight against them. If the players in your area are 'hap-hazardly mixing army lists' then there seems to be something wrong with their understanding of the rules.

 

In my opinion, the thing that makes Warhammer 40K so great isnt the cool models (although they are cool), or the game mechanics, but the story behind the game itself. I love looking at a battlefield and coming up with the stories and the characters behind the models and the scenario. We all know its a game, but how many of us know more about the Warhammer 40K universe than we know about the histories of our own families? People talk about the 40K fluff like its real, and thats not a bad thing. The background and the history and the stories and the heroic imagery are what sucked us in to this hobby in the first place. Many of us were reading 40K novels and codexes for the sheer enjoyment months or years before we ever bought a model. Its no wonder that Games Workshop is so protective over its Intellicetual Property, as that is the very core of the hobby and the community itself.

 

Yes, the fluff is vitally important to us. Most of us, anyway. I would certainly agree with you on what you say here.

 

 

All Space Marines hate all Xenos. I think that was brought up in this post somewhere, and it was brought up in every post Ive seen about the Red Dragons chapter on other sites like the librarium. Even the traitor legions hate all xenos. You would no sooner find the Red Corsairs allying themselves with the Tau than you would the Space Wolves. The one thing that all space marines have in common is their belief in the destiny of humanity. Where, in the past, Space Marines have fought along side alien species, as soon as their mutual enemy was destroyed they turned their bolters on their one-time allies. Space Marines in the current incarnation of the game (meaning forget about Rogue Trader), would never use Xenos equipment. Bolters and power armor and every little piece of their equiment is a holy artefact, their wargear was a gift from the Emperor himself. They would be as loathe to discard their battle gear as they would be to discard their own geneseed. Once again, even the Traitor Legions refuse to use xenos equipment. Marines cooperating with Tau is also a blatant fluff violation as they would be more likely to try to exterminate them. Not only that, but having read the fluff youve created around the Red Dragons, their alliance with the Tau is completely unneccessary.

Yes, all aliens are hated by all marines. Xenophobia is encouraged in the Imperium, because (in part) to the principles of monodomination. The galaxy is the Emperor's, and that gives humanity the right to expel those that trespass.

 

However, the Imperium does use equipment recovered from aliens. The C'tan phase knife used by Callidus Assassins. Or the xenos technology incorporated into the first (and only) Acheron cruiser.

 

Chapters go rogue. Even the most upstanding chapters refuse to submit to the High Lords on a constant basis. They even refuse the Inquisition and Rogue Traders on a constant basis, and they get away with it on a constant basis. The Blood Angels and Space Wolves refuse to surrender their geneseed to the High Lords. The Dark Angels refuse to reveal their history to the High Lords. Many chapters are not fans of the Inquisiton or the Imperial government. Many chapters believe that the government of the Imperium is corrupt. None of them go running to the enemy to help them "fix" the Imperium. The Tau dont want to see the Imperium repaired, they want to see it consumed into their empire. Thats not what your chapter wants, is it? Your marines sound like they want to help the cause of the Imperium of Man, and so what are they doing collaborating with its enemies instead of exterminating them? Your chapter can dislike the Inquisition and the High Lords and not even be a rouge chapter, as most chapters dont like them either!

 

Neosonichdghg, I have been here keeping track of your DIY chapter since you first decided that you wanted to make your own chapter and your own fluff. I was one of the first people to respond to you on LO when your idea was that they jumped off of the Dragon's Claw in a big cloud and floated over to other ships to board it and me and a couple of others explained to you why that wasnt going to work. I still stand by now what I said to you then (and it appeared that you had taken my advice, but apparently not so), that the best and most rewarding fluff is written inside of the bounds already established, because heroes need limits to be human. Your chapter will be just as interesting, and much more believable, if you foucus on their struggle against the corrupt forces inside the Imperium and forget about coming up with some gimmick. Good and rewarding story telling is about overcoming obstacles, not some new piece of technology or some new way of allying your forces, and using technology or some gimmick like a Tau alliance actually detracts from it and makes it cheap.... [snip]

 

I would agree with you here, however, that the Tau connection doesn't seem to add much to the Red Dragons. There are chapters excommunicated by the Inquisition that don't go running off to the Xenos. I think most (fluff-savvy) people have made it clear that Tau Marines shouldn't be encouraged. At the end of the day it's neosonchdghg's chapter and he can do what he likes.

 

Quite frankly, the Marine models with Tau wargear is a blatant fluff violation.

 

A group of marines cut off behind enemy lines during the Damocles Crusade attempt to fight their way home. Their bolters run out of ammunition, so they scavenge what they can from the enemy and fight as only a marine can.

 

:D

 

I just created a justifiable reason for a marine clutching a Pulse Carbine. And if the 13th Company are likely to use chaos armour, tainted by the warp, then I think a marine would cope with using Tau weaponry. He wouldn't like it, not at all. He'd likely submit to punishment when he returned to the chapter. But it's possible.

[Daeothar]

@ Commissar Molotov: No doubt you even surprised yourself with that one... :D

 

I like it lots; it would definitaly fit.

 

Although I am not half the fluff nazi as others are (I tend to think in RT terms still; just about everything goes, it's a big universe, it's my army, there's an explaniation for everything etc etc) I wasn't too certain this idea would work. Now I'm sure the right angle has presented itself and this would surely make for a solid piece of fluff while allowing for all the modelling opportunities neosonichdghg craves. Everybody happy.

 

And all that in a civil way too... :)

[Tubal]

We know there are stong opinions against Tau-allied marines, WE KNOW! Now, can we get on with the topic without flames and counterproductive complaints?

Phthisis, you personal experiences with bad players are in no way on topic. Btw, chaos do use Xenos allies in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels and can take Kroot allies. Your puritan views on the fluff isn't even supported by GW.

[Aurelius Rex]

A potentially explosive flamewar nicely extinguished.

 

Kudos to all the members of the Volunteer Fire Department*. <_<

 

Tau allied marines are indeed a contentious issue, but that was not a great surprise. I am sure that all discussions can be dealt with in a reasoned manner, OK?

 

As I percieve it one of the things that people are objecting to is the basic premise that marines would work so closely with Xenos races. Personally I feel that if you can come up with a good enough rationale then you can get away with most things. It seems that a number of posters feel that the reason given for their lifestyle choice could do with some more shoring up, and have given examples of how it could be done. Ultimately it is up to you... :angry:

 

The second thing that people have a concern with is the hybrid armylist / wargear. I mentioned in a previous post that taking an exclusively Codex legal marine list and making it clear to the opponent that the 'counts as' rule is in effect, so that the pulse rifles all use bolter rules etc. I was glad that you seemed to be doing this, but the addition of modified markerlight rules and the like were a concern. If you are only playing with close friends who agree, then fine. Unfortunately as soon as you play a new gamer, or in a tourney the creative additions to the rules are going to be siezed on as trying to wring the maximum advantage out of arbitary rules.

 

You could test your creativity one more time by using the 'Counts as' rule to simulate the same effects legally from options or wargear in the codex... say call the markerlight an auspex, or even just have it for show and give it no game effect. This should keep all the game balance problems in check, as long as everything is nice and obvious. ;)

 

What do you say? :D

 

 

 

* This is a reference to the VFD secret society in the highly enjoyable Lemony Snicket books. :)

[Warmaster Phthisis]

hmmm.. Look, I'm sorry for being so uncivil. I'm not sure exactly what kind of apology is expected of me though, Commissar Molotov. My last post was intended to be a full apology for the 'flaming' as that was not what I had meant to do at all. I'm formally apologizing agian for the inflamatory nature of my first post. I did not consider that they way that I had put my statements were going to be considered to just be mean and not logical because I was was insensed at the time and in this thread there are several other posts of the same tone that were not reacted to. I bear no ill will to anyone in this forum, I was simply attempting to make an empassioned statement. If this is something that can't be put behind us, simply ask me to leave B&C and never return I'll be happy to do so.

 

But if its a full retraction of the statments that were made (instead of the tone that they were made in) then what I gave was indeed the best apology that you could expect from me. Mixing marines with Tau on the table top is indeed the worst type of powergaming and is deserving of ridicule. Nowhere in this thread was it clearly stated that Marines and Tau were not to be fielded simultaneously until after my first post. In fact in areas it was mentioned combining Tac squads with gundrones and integrating tau upgrades and weaponry into the marine equipmment, which lead me to believe that they were to be fielded simultaneously. If you read my first post, you'll see that the entirety of it is focused towards the idea of fielding marines in a Tau army like you would feild Kroot Mercs. Is everybody agreed with me that Marines should not be allowed to be fielded as Troop choices in a Tau army for a "marine screen" as not only is it against fluff and blatant powergaming but also very illegal in terms of rules?

 

I have seen photos of marine models that have integrated Tau bitz and I have to say that I like them. They look cool. The trick here is coming up with good and accurate fluff to explain why the Marines have some Tau gear on them. Upon hearing a good explanation that fits the existing fluff of the 40k universe, I'd say something like "good job" or "I like it" and give it my support. So far, the focus of the Red Dragons has been that they have joined the Tau Empire. I havent been satisfied. As of yet Ive heard plenty of explanations of why the Red Dragons would become a renegade chapter. Quite a few chapters have gon renegade for one reason or another and yet none of them have ever become a part of another race's empire, choosing to fight for xenos against the Imperium. GW is very clear on why this wouldnt happen, because Space Marines are brainwashed to hate Xenos of any kind and to support humanity over all else. Marines who have devoted themselves to chaos do so because they think that chaos is whats best for humanity, or that the Imperium is harmful to humanity in general. I understand that the latter reason is why the Red Dragons moved away from the Imperium. So, what you need to do is come up with a very very good reason to override GW cannon completely and explain why the Red Dragons would join the Tau empire and fight for them against humanity. So far, I dont think such an explanation can be made, but if you find one then I'll give it to you. I'm actually a very reasonable person and right now thats why I think the Red Dragons fluff is completely unfeasable. There are many examples in 40k history of marines being cut off behind enemy lines, for centuries even. History shows that when Marines are cut off with no hope of supply, they continue the fight against the enemy clandestinely, attempting to return to their chapter while recconoitering the enemy and doing as much damage as possible

 

Molitov, your explanation for Marines with Tau wargear does work. I think that the Red Dragons could be modeled with Tau equipment and still fit the 40k background. Here's an idea:

The Red Dragons were involved in the Damoclese crusade, but as they are a Dark Angels sucessor they deomonstrated their tendency for secrecy and solitude by breaking away from the battle plan and pursuing their own campaign against the Tau. The Red Dragons spearheaded far inside of Tau territory and attempted to move behind the Tau defenders, simultaneously cutting off Tau supply and preventing any reinforcements from reaching the front. However, the Red Dragons, as many members of the crusade, had severely underestimated the combat abilities of their Tau enemies. Being deeper into Tau space, the Tau were able to bring heavy resistance to bear against the Red Dragons in one of their systems and though the chapter fought valliantly and destroyed many enemies they could not escape the fury of the Tau. Their fleet was ambushed as they attempted to flee the system and critical damage was done to their battle barges and strike cruisers, forcing their Chapter Master to cut power and attempt to drift to the end of the system. However, not every ship made it far enough out of the star's gravity well to safely engage their warp drives. The Tau were scouting through the system to hunt down and capture the remainder of the chapter, but Space Marines refuse to be captured. Some ships fought to the death using the last of their strength to take out as many Tau as possible. Some activated their warp drives and their fate was initially unkown. The majority of the chapter, however, found themselves drifting slowly towards the systems star and rather than allowing themselves to be immolated they boarded their drop pods and thunderhawks and evacuated their ships. They landed on a nearby Tau sept world and immediately began raiding the Tau for supplies and doing the only thing they could, continue to fight against the Tau for their survival. The Red Dragons sucessfuly fought against the Tau of the sept and avoided destruction for decades, although many losses were sustained. Then, suddenly out of the warp a space hulk arrived, created of the massed hulks of the Red Dragons fleet that had activated their warp drives. Their drives had been too damaged to escape the twisted singularity of the systems star, and had remained in the warp stranded for decades. The Red Dragons on board their ships found their ships being pulled together slowly in the warp and twisted into one vessel. Instead of fighting it, they helped the process, joining the ships together many times purposefully and combining their power systems in hope that they could generate enough energy combined to escape the system. Eventually, the hulk acheived enough mass and fell suddenly out of warp space in system. Christened the Dragons Claw by the remaining Red Dragons, the hulk did not yet have the capacity to leave the system and they still were obligated to find their brother marines who stayed to fight. The amassed weapons batteries of the Dragons Claw battered aside the planetary defenses of the sept world and took up high orbit, and hailed on all marine channels in hopes of finding survivers. And survivors they found, the remanents of the survivors had been fighting a guerilla war on the sept world for decades, having long run out of munitions and replacement equpiment and had taken to using what they could scavenge from Tau wreckage. Stalwart as ever, the Red Dragons once again continued a large scale campaign against the Tau on the sept. The heavy raiding which had occured over the previous decades had significantly weakened the Tau's ability to fight, and the Red Dragons quicky acheived victory and they exterminated every Tau they had found on the planet. Having no warp travel and being stranded on the tau sept world, they claimed it as their own and renamed the planet Gibraltar in honor of their lost Battle Barge/Chapter hero. Many times the Tau have counterattacked, but the might of the Dragons Claw and their sheer tanacity has allowed them to emerge victorious from the fires of many battles. They still contine the struggle to repair the Dragons Claw to warp capability, desperately trying to reconstruct their ship with information and equipment recovered from defeated Tau. However, there is no way of telling whether they will ever succeed in their endeavours or eventually fall to the Tau and be destroyed. Add in any anti-imperial ideology to the Red Dragons you want.

 

I dont think that violates any fluff, I may be wrong though. Not only does this use a perfectly fluff friendly reason for marines using Tau equipment, but it incorporates an early theme for the Dragons that neosonichdghg was interested in (stranded marines trying to build their way off), and lends itself very well to campaign play. Campaigns rock! Well, I'm just trying to help out and be constructive. What do you all think? Does this make up for the harshness earlier?

 

Tubal, I was under the imperession that the example youre talking about was a human cult allied with Xenos, which is quite normal and acceptable. I didnt think that the Xenos were allied with any of the Traitor Legions.

 

Aurelious, it was indeed handled well, and I'm surprised how everybody kept their cool. I really didnt mean to flame though, and if someone had said something rude back to me I would have responded in a similar collected way that I was responded to. As I have said before, I was simply trying to make an empassioned statement, and instead it came out overly-empassioned to the point of being inflamatory and plain rude. One again, I apologize and I hope that we can continue on with the discussion of the topic at hand.

[neosonichdghg]

I LIKE IT! I LIKE IT A LOT!

 

Okay, there is one thing you guys don't quite understand. I will not, in any way, be using special rules for the Dragons. No unusual weapons, no unusual units, no hideous mixture of Tau and Marine, nothing. Just vanilla Marines. Even the handful of special rules I mentioned are things I am considering adding at some point on an experimental basis only. At this point, the Dragons will not get markerlights even as a "get your opponent's permission" thing. They're not even on the board yet.

 

On the subject of the fluff, again, I LIKE IT A LOT! I will probably tweak a few things merely from personal preference, but what you wrote will become the fluff mostly unchanged. Thank you very much. What I will change is, well pretty much just some stuff about their hatred for the Inquisition. It even makes more sense now, because the chapter is so secretive and would really hate the Inquisitors sticking their noses in the Dragons' business.

 

I kinda miss being allied with the Tau (I really like the Tau) but I guess I'll get over it. Maybe I can work it out and come up with something more coherent at another time. For the time being, though, I'll use yours. (If you don't mind, of course)

 

Anyway, what do the rest of you guys think?

[Warmaster Phthisis]

I'm really glad you like it. <_<

 

Of course I dont mind if you use it, I wrote it specifically for you and your army. And feel free to tweak it and add to it as you please. Its completely yours now.

 

I know that youre planning on playing vanilla marines, but there is some room for non-codex behavior in the chapter too from its history. If you do decide to play around with them and do them as a codex-variant chapter, might I suggest that you use See, But Don't Be Seen as it reflects the skills they learned on the Tau sept world hiding from the Tau and raiding. As the requisite drawback you could either use Faithful Unto Death to represent the losses they took in their ill fated campaign, but I think that We Stand Alone works better as they are deep in enemy territory and forgotten by the Imperium and so since theyre cut off from assistance they wont be taking allies. Also, theyre Dark Angels successors and secretive and this is also reflected by that minor drawback.

[Commissar Molotov]

Phthisis, your ideas are of a very high quality, and it's certainly good to have a poster of your calibre in the Liber.

 

As far as I am aware, the Tau codex states that the only chapters involved in the Damocles Crusade were the Iron Hands, Ultramarines and the Scythes of the Emperor. That causes a major problem in your idea because the Red Dragons wouldn't have been involved.

 

That said, it's possible they were involved in a minor role, and because they operate out of the sphere of normal chapters, with their secrecy, they managed to escape most of the official records. That said, two problems:

 

1- The later-founding Dark Angels chapters have no secrets, as they don't know about the fallen.

 

2- There are very few later-founding DA chapters. Index Astartes: Relictors makes it clear that the High Lords of Terra do not like using Dark Angels gene-seed.

 

The idea of the chapter being forced onto a sept world and having to fight to survive is a very characterful one. I'm not sure why the Chapter Master would cut power in the midst of an attack, though.

 

I also can't say that I'm too fond of the "Hulk made from Battle-barges", though. It might be better suited to simply have one surviving battle barge, though that's my personal feelings.

 

Hope this gives some food for thought.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

Thanks a lot Molotov. Good points. I hope you dont mind if I try to work through them.

 

Well, actually there were 5 provisional companies put together from 12 chapters, including the Ultramarines, Iron Hands, and Scythes. I was thinking the same thing that you were about their high level of secrecy and the fact that they followed their own campaign alone keeping them below the Imperial radar as to who was involved in the conflict. On top of that its pretty convenient that since they didnt know the Red Dragons were there that they wouldnt have thought anything strange when they didnt return from Tau space.

 

The Red Dragons, of course, have no idea about the fallen and Luther's trechary. It was my understanding, though, that all Dark Angels were secretive by nature anyway as it was one of the passed on personality traits from the Lion. The Lion was, according to what Ive read, was quiet and spoke very little, and was very reluctant to give out information about himself. Nobody really knows what his life was like before Luther found him as he just refuses to tell anyone. It was my understanding that all Dark Angels successors were naturally secretive, regardless of their knowledge of the Fallen, just as other marines have picked up personality traits from their Primarch. On top of that, being Dark Angels sucessors doesnt necessarily have to be the reason that theyre secretive, as there are a lot of secretive chapters that like to keep to themselves and hide everything they can from the Inquisition and High Lords. To a lot of chapters, the nosey Inquisition and Imperial Warmasters are an annoyance that just gets in the way of their job.

 

Its true that the High Lords are not fond of creating chapters from the Dark Angels geneseed. Im not exactly sure why though but I suspect that its because the Dark Angels successors all seem to ignore them completely and shut them out. And even though they dont like to use it, I didnt take that to mean that they never use it. I was under the impression that the only geneseed they didnt continue to use was the Space Wolves and the traitor legions, and that the Salamanders get very rarely used. I went with Dark Angels because it seemed to fit the secretive nature and that it sounded like neosonichdghg was already decided on that geneseed, but the same story could easily work with any chapter, especially Raven Guard, or a chapter with "unknown geneseed" like the Blood Ravens.

 

In BFG there is a rule where if you decide to you can have a ship disengage from battle to escape further damage. The idea is that most sensors detect the energy emitted by the ships power systems instead of the mass. So, if you cut the engines and power down the ships weapons, the blip of the ship on the enemy's sensors just dissapears. Ships engage each other from thousands of kilometers apart and so cant be seen with even the assisted eye unless they are very close. Also, some sensors can sense the metal from magnetism, but this has to be done from a much closer distance than other sensors. Even Tau sensors operate this way. So, if youre the captian of a ship thats getting hammered and you dont want to fight to the end, you can disengage the enemy and try to escape by making a sharp turn and then cutting power and just letting your momentum carry you to the edge of the system where you can power up and jump into the warp and escape. Of course it doesnt always work because youre helpless if they find you or you drift through debris or get caught in a gravity well. Its just like the old WWII U-boat tactic to escape destroyers at the beginning of the war. Battle Barges are formidable ships, but they have weaknesses, and once a ship is crippled its ability to defend itself is greatly reduced. A relentless assault by Tau ships would take many losses as Imperial ships are far superior, but eventually a Battle Barge could be crippled, and then it would be largely helpless. If the Red Dragons fleet was ambushed while attempting to escape, their ships would likely be unable to put up much of a defense and a competent captain, such as the Chapter Master would likely order his fleet to disengage, using the tactic above, in order to save the majority of his fleet and escape the system. Of course, then theyre helpless to the Tau if the Tau can find them, and they have to have strict radio silence, but that figures into the story.

 

As for the Dragons Claw, I know that neosonichdghg has been playing with the idea of a massive starship as his fortress monastery. Ships stranded in the warp naturally gravitate to one another, especially in gravity wells and thats why ships need to reach the edge of the system for them to be able to safely begin warp travel. As their drives were damaged and they translated to the warp inside the gravity well, their ships would be naturally drawn to one another. That is after all how all hulks are made. I'm not so sure it was made of battle barges, it could have been made of a battle barge and any number of strike craft and escorts that drifted together, so it seemed natural to me that they would do something like attaching them together as best they could in hopes that they could get the ships working again by mixing their power. Also, the gravity the hulks produce are what takes them in and out of warp, so it makes sense that the hulk would come back. So it was a really convenient way for neosonichdghg to get the massive ship or hulk he wanted without having to explain why they didnt blow it up or it wasnt infested with genestealers, or explaining how the Ad Mech managed to create it without the existing know how. The ship would be able to hold almost the entire chapter and armory within itself and would make a formidable floating fotress. However, the size of it I'll leave up to the chapter's creator. But because of the fluff regarding their deployment onto the planet, at least one battle barge and several strike cruisers would have had to have been destroyed by either crashing into the sept world, finished off by the orbital defenses, or have drifted into the star, and other ships were destroyed in suicidal attacks when found by Tau patrols. So its not the whole fleet, just the few vessels that managed to translate into warp space. In a chapter, its rare to find more than two battle barges though. If he decides to play BFG it could be a cool conversion and spice up the games a bit as BFG is a lot looser system in terms of adding special vehicles for scenarios and stuff.

 

Thats what was going on in my head when I wrote the story.

[neosonichdghg]

Wow...you guys just rock. Thanks for all your help. Tomorrow I continue my journey toward the ultimate goal of a Dragons army. By the way, sliiiiightly off-topic, I have a Dreadnought! It's really cool, 'cause I put all sorts of Tau bitz on it. The CCW is a buzzsaw made out of a drone and some DE arm blades. It's got all sorts of sensors, a missile pod for smoke launchers, modified AC, crisis vents instead of powerplant thingie...

 

Well, I like it. Anyway, thanks again for the fluff help.