NL non-chaos

[Einsatz]

OK, I'm sure this will get hammered quick.

 

I just finished "Heart of Darkness" and I've read "Lord of the Night".

 

So, this is what I'm thinking. A splinter group of the NL run into the western secor of space following the heresy. (they are smart enough to know which way to run) They lay low for centuries mostly making attacks look like xenos, or obliterating the evidence.

 

Sometime 2,000 years ago a group of marines come into the sector. The NL ambush them and/or infiltrate the base of the chapter. The chapter is destroyed but not killed. The NL keep some in stasis/ embryonic (SP) tanks. They use this stock of marines to send gene seed samples back for testing. The NL would then be able to "modernize" their force. Now, sooner or later they will be called upon to fight for the imperium. The chapters colors would be used and the NL would fight or at least appear to fight ;) .

 

I fully believe the NL were done wrong. Kurtz was the greatest of the primarchs (well, top 5 at least). No demons, no slaves to chaos. Just marines continueing to fight for the sake of fighting. This would have no effect on game play. I would be able to fight for or against chaos.

 

Does this idea suck, or does it have at least a shred of merit?

[ChickenMonkey]

As long as you used (for each game) either NL list or DIY marines, I'd say cool.

Seems pretty believable to me.

[Librarian- Melechor]

The Night lords would never send captured geneseed back to the adeptus mechanicus i'm afraid, they are no longer part of the imperial system and no longer affiliate themselves with such things. The geneseed sample-sending occured after the heresy, so the NL wouldn't know about the idea of doing it anway. ;)

[Rogue Trader]

Ignoring the whole 'dreadful cliche of loyalist traitors' discussion for the moment, there's a few points that could use some work...

 

So, this is what I'm thinking. A splinter group of the NL run into the western secor of space following the heresy. (they are smart enough to know which way to run) They lay low for centuries mostly making attacks look like xenos, or obliterating the evidence.

How did this 'splinter group' of the Night Lords survive for eight thousand years without the resources of either the Imperium or the EoT to sustain them?

To all intents and purposes, you're saying they are normal marines... so how did they live so long? I doubt that they'd have the resources to set up a new chapter and draft recruits etc, and they wouldn't have the various effects of the Eye (tears in reality, warp time distortion etc) to keep them alive for so long...

 

Who are they attacking? The Imperium? If so, why? You said you think the NL were "done wrong" and weren't really traitors, but yet you have them attacking the Imperium... I'm also not keen on the "make it look like xenos/destroy the evidence" idea - that's more Alpha Legion tactics than NL...

 

 

Sometime 2,000 years ago a group of marines come into the sector. The NL ambush them and/or infiltrate the base of the chapter.

Again, sounds more like Alpha Legion to me... also, how big is the 'splinter group' that they can take down an entire chapter of marines with so little trouble?

 

 

The chapter is destroyed but not killed.

Eh? ;) Might want to explain that a bit more... the chapter was destroyed, which implies no remains were left of them, yet they weren't killed? If the loyalist marines were still alive, they'd still be fighting, especially against traitor marines

 

 

The NL keep some in stasis/ embryonic (SP) tanks. They use this stock of marines to send gene seed samples back for testing. The NL would then be able to "modernize" their force. Now, sooner or later they will be called upon to fight for the imperium. The chapters colors would be used and the NL would fight or at least appear to fight

[Tubal]

If you're going to paint a loyalist chapter and use loyalist rules, why do you even bother with the NL stuff? ;) What we're trying to say, I think, is that you need more of a reason for their behaviour.

 

And by the way, Konrad Curze was a murderous psycopath even before he met the Emperor as well as suffering from tainted visions pushing him further into madness... But hey, if you think he's nice that's your right!

[Einsatz]

the Emperor used Kurtz to complete his goals, then had him killed when he was no longer useful.

 

Marines have the ability to create new marines. Most traitor legions have devolved to the point of beastmen. During the heresy legions were huge. Thats why today there are over 1000 "loyal" chapters, and nine traitor legions.

 

NL were every bit as crafty as AL. They never really fell to chaos, as much as they were pushed. Legions are not stupid. (maybe the WE legion). They understand how the imperium works. By maintaining the charade of the the "other" chapter, the NL would be able to function with realitive impunity. The gene seed sent back for testing would be almost like a trade to get information and equipment from the imperium. If there is no reason for the imperium to look, the imperium won't look.

 

I'm not going to run them as loyalist traitors. I hate the idea myself. Why would the NL want to be forgiven, they were the ones betrayed. I think many of the traitor legions lost their nobility due to the powers of the eye of terror. Marines that never went into the eye, would have been able to hide out, especially if they layed low. They would not have been warped by chaos. The would be able to work by any means to gain the vengeance they deserve.

 

Better days.

[ironloki]

Marines have the ability to create new marines.

True to an extent but they need equipment to do so (labratories etc). Most traitors in the EoT dont have that much access to this and turn to the crazy people such as Bile and/or the Gods for reinforcements

 

They never really fell to chaos, as much as they were pushed

 

The Night lords were loonies basically. They were always unorthodox and were pushing things too far. Nobody pushed them at all. The only thing close to that would be when they tried to lock up Kurze to try and figure out what was wrong before he wipped Dorn (Still gotta love them though :devil: )

 

The gene seed sent back for testing would be almost like a trade to get information and equipment from the imperium. If there is no reason for the imperium to look, the imperium won't look.

 

This is the one thing im unsure about myself. If the imperium caught wind of a traitor chapter they would hunt them down let alone give them more equipment. I suppose you could go along the line that they seized several planets, ships etc with geneseed, laboratories in them but im not 100% about that B)

[Dead.Blue.Clown]

"The Night Lords have returned, sir."

 

"Emperor's Golden Balls! What did you say?"

"They're back. And they say they never wanted to be Chaos scum. To prove their good intentions, they slaughtered another chapter and are using their captured geneseed to "modernize" themselves. Now they want to fight for the Imperium."

 

"I see. Despatch the Ultramarines immediately."

 

"Why, sir? To welcome these poorly-reasoned, unrealistic Chaos-tainted evil freaks back into the fold?"

 

"No, dear servitor. To wipe them from the face of the galaxy. If you can find the Flesh Tearers, ask them if they fancy beating the crap out of these new Night Lords, too."

 

"But sir, the Flesh Tearers are dangerously close to be declared Excommunicate Traitoris themselves. They eat the flesh of their enemies - and allies - and are almost uncontrollable, sometimes even killing Imperial citizens in their berserk fury!"

 

"True, but insane vampire cannibals are still leaps and bounds better than those damn Night Lords. I guess that says something about how truly beyond redemption the Night Lords are, eh? While you're at it, get me Logan Grimnar on the phone, and see if the Space Wolves want to go hunting for heretics."

[Tubal]

I'm quite sure he meant they've kept their real identities hidden and masqueraded as the defeated chapter, sending in captured geneseed when a tithe was demanded.

[Dead.Blue.Clown]

I'm quite sure he meant they've kept their real identities hidden and masqueraded as the defeated chapter, sending in captured geneseed when a tithe was demanded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Perhaps so. But that's hardly the kind of chapter that would like to serve the Imperium, let alone one that would survive without scrutiny for very long.

 

"We want to rejoin the Imperium of Man. And to do this, we slaughter a chapter, harvest their geneseed to use as a big lie to those in power, and essentially replace a loyalist chapter at full strength with an undermanned group of renegade almost-Chaos marines who wish to change their ways. No chance of Chaos taint in that list of actions!

 

Incidentally, we're not evil, but the Emperor was pissed at us for constantly going over the top with torture and genocide and all that jazz back before the Heresy. But like I said, we're good guys now. Uh...except for that part when we slaughtered a chapter. And that part where we post their geneseed back to the Imperium. And, well, pretty much everything else about our chapter. Give us a chance, though, eh? What's 10,000 years between battle-brothers?"

 

:devil: Nah, I can't see it happening.

[Tubal]

Where does all this loyalist stuff come from? He clearly states that they are NOT loyal:

I'm not going to run them as loyalist traitors. I hate the idea myself. Why would the NL want to be forgiven, they were the ones betrayed.

They are under cover, not redeemed.

[Ferrata]

Bead.Blue.Clown, while your post are amusing, theres no need for them. If you dislike an idea you state what you dont like about it, simple

 

Ferrata

[Dead.Blue.Clown]

Bead.Blue.Clown, while your post are amusing, theres no need for them. If you dislike an idea you state what you dont like about it, simple

 

Ferrata

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, good point. I didn't actually wanna be mean to the guy. Apologies all round, Einsatz.

[Einsatz]

Dead.blue. clown. If they make you stop posting on this thread, send me stuff in IM. HAHAHA. Your posts are great. I loved the "get logan on the phone part".

 

I have 4 "loyal" chapters, plus GK, WH, and DH armies. I want to run against the grain for awhile. Not a fan of demons. The NL turning to chaos was simply trading one master for another. The NL wanted freedom to revel in slaughter, I love that idea. HAHAHA, sick I know. But, hey it's a fantasy game.

 

To maintain the influx of equipment and remain in good standing the <insert chapter name> would have to 1) send gene seed sample tithe to the AM. 2) remain at the call to the "loyalist" imperium.

 

1) tank grown humans would be the source of the gene seed samples. The gene-seed from the slaughtered chapter would be the stock used.

 

2) equipment and armor could be kept in the chapter colors while a portion could be sent to the NL in hiding. When called upon to fight for the imperium, the NL could use the "loyal" color scheme and either fight a protracted campaign (gaining little ground) or have difficulties in the warp and arrive too late for the battles. Isssues could always allow small groups of marines to be sent. Xenos in the area of the homeworld for instance. It's very seldom if ever that an entire chapter goes to war.

 

I am going to build a chapter that is neither loyal nor chaos, but is actually both. Makes no sense I know. it will work out when i actually work on the fluff. I hate marine armies out there that are renegade because they don't like the imperium. They are indoctrinated to follow the orders of the emperor. From "birth" a marine is brain washed to follow orders. I find it hard to believe so many are disobeying.

 

The emperor ordered genocide and then condemned the way in which it was enacted. He created Kurtz and then cast him away when he was a liability. think into the fluff of 40K. The emperor has more blood on his hands than khorne ever will. "blood for the blood god" is "for the emperor", "skulls for the skull throne" is "souls for the golden throne". Who is evil and who is good? It matters not. An eye for an eye, the emperor had Kurtz killed and the NL will have their vengeance.

 

better days.

[Rogue Trader]

the Emperor used Kurtz to complete his goals, then had him killed when he was no longer useful.

Hardly. Remember Lord of the Night is a biased view, as it was intended to be. I'd suggest reading (or re-reading) the IA for the Night Lords.

 

Konrad Curze (and Kurtz from HofD is not the same character at all :evil:) was regarded with suspicion and distrust by his borther primarchs right from the off. His behaviour was distant, isolationist and paranoid. His heretical beliefs were all his own, and his behaviour degenerated until the events on Cheraut when he assaulted Dorn. He was killed because of his actions, not through a conspiracy by the Emperor. Even prior to his defection, his actions were questionable - virus-bombing an entire continent because an emergent cult devoted to Slaanesh had been uncovered on a remote island? The culling of Grendel's World? Not the actions of a sane or rational individual. The destruction of Nostromo, his own homeworld, goes further to show how delusional and paranoid he had become.

 

It was this action that left Curze open to the 'whispered temptations of chaos'. No action by the emperor or his fellow primarchs pushed him to Chaos. It was his own actions and his dangerously unhinged mind that did that for him...

 

 

Marines have the ability to create new marines.

Yes, but only with the extensive apothecarion facilities available at Fortress Monastery (or maybe a Battle Barge). Certainly a splinter group fleeing from the Heresy wouldn't have the resources (or, most likely the knowledge) available to them to carry out the delicate procedures require to turn humans into marines. You also need to address the materiel aspect - where did they get their power armour, tanks, weapons etc etc?

 

 

Most traitor legions have devolved to the point of beastmen.

Do what? Where did you get that from? The traitor legions aren't beastmen. Ok, maybe they've been affected by exposure to the warp, but devolved into beastmen? No.

 

 

During the heresy legions were huge. Thats why today there are over 1000 "loyal" chapters, and nine traitor legions.

No again, I'm afraid. At the time of the heresy, the nine remaining loyal legions were broken up into fifty one chapters, not 1000. The thousand chapters are a result of twenty four subsequent foundings. The traitor legions numbered nine at the end of the Heresy, and number nine now. The reason? Because they don't have the facilities available to the loyalists for the creation of new marines.

 

 

NL were every bit as crafty as AL. They never really fell to chaos, as much as they were pushed.

I think I've already covered that - I think you're going from the view point of Lord of the Night, rather than the factual basis of the IA. The NL were never crafty - they were brutal, unforgiving and downright sadistic. Not crafty.

 

 

If there is no reason for the imperium to look, the imperium won't look.

I agree with that point... but I still don't buy the "wear the other chapter's colours, and 'pretend' to fight" bit - it doesn't sit right. Night Lords have been Night Lords for 10k years, they won't suddenly repaint their armour (or wear other armour).

 

 

I think many of the traitor legions lost their nobility due to the powers of the eye of terror. Marines that never went into the eye, would have been able to hide out, especially if they layed low. They would not have been warped by chaos. The would be able to work by any means to gain the vengeance they deserve.

The problem lies in that they were already touched by chaos by the time of the Heresy... it's not like that's something you can shrug off. The effect on the traitors in the Eye has only been magnified - it's there in each and every one of the NLs who was alive at that time...

[Einsatz]

I agree with almost every thing you said Rogue. And what I disagree with is due to my writing not yours.

 

I know my fluff is from the "lord of the night". Thats why I want a chapter of NL. :devil: . All fluff is a matter of perspective.

 

By devolved into beastmen, I meant they no longer had the noble purpose of the loyal marines. I know they aren't beastmen. But, just because they do not fight for the emperor, doesn't mean they cannot be noble. The moors were no less noble than the english knights (and both sides attempted genocide). It's all a matter of perspective. I see the chaos legions today as 'uhg, shoot, kill, ugh, next planet".

 

They chaos legions are creating new marines. They just don't create new chapters. There had to have been millions of traitor marines, if after 10.000 years of war they can still deploy entire companies to battle.

 

Better days.

 

+one more thing - aren't the IA articles written from the Imperial perspective? B) +

[Rogue Trader]

I know my fluff is from the "lord of the night". Thats why I want a chapter of NL. :devil: . All fluff is a matter of perspective.

Fair enough B) And as good a reason as any to start any army. One thing that puzzles me - if you loved the NL of Lord of the Night why not go straight NL? Why do the DIY thing? (not that I'm trying to discourage that ;))

 

 

But, just because they do not fight for the emperor, doesn't mean they cannot be noble. The moors were no less noble than the english knights (and both sides attempted genocide). It's all a matter of perspective. I see the chaos legions today as 'uhg, shoot, kill, ugh, next planet".

I think that's maybe an unfair stereotype - maybe the WE are that basic, but I wouldn't say many of the others are... Personally, if I was looking for a traitor legion that had been wronged by the Emperor, I'd be looking at the Thousand Sons. Now they got a raw deal, poor guys :)

 

 

They chaos legions are creating new marines. They just don't create new chapters. There had to have been millions of traitor marines, if after 10.000 years of war they can still deploy entire companies to battle.

Maybe not millions, but those that did survive have the facilities of the EoT at their disposal - and more often than not have to turn to the likes of Fabius Bile to get the job done... a traitor legion outside the Eye would be severely pressed to find the resources they needed to sustain themselves for so long without appearing as a blip on the Imperial radar...

[Einsatz]

When I think of the chaos NL, I think of the ones that showed up at the end of the book. I was looking for a decent "hook", that allows them to be marines. Not mutated, demon huggers B) . I guess I could go with a heresy era chapter, but I'm not really sure how that works to be honest.

 

I could NEVER do a TS army. My very first marines were Space Wolves. I even have a "army badge" tattooed on my left calf! (2nd ed. had the skull and diamond on the greave of the marine) Though my tat is a little more detailed. :devil:

 

Thanks for the help.

[refuse]

On Apothicaries.

 

I would assume most Chaos Legions didn't find it "interesting" to be apothicaries.

 

WE would just chop the head off and send the soul to Khorne.

EC's would, well inject new experimental drugs.

1k Sons, well. . .

Death Guard, uh, they kind of just keep working

 

So the 4 major legions would have "issues" with staying/training Apothicaries. The same could be said for Mechanicus, and other specialized jobs such as chaplains. This could be the reason for the "apperent" destruction of them. Or why they don't show up, as mostly the discipline needed for them is lost in the worship of Chaos.

 

But we know they weren't all lost.

 

Iron Warriors still have Tech Marines.

Word Bearers still have Chaplains.

 

 

But the point is, I think, chaos is depicted as a very archetypical "bad guy", thus the day to day professions (apothicary, tech priest, chaplain) are not presented (though they use to be) in the current rendition of the fluff.

 

So the services of Fabius bile are needed by those who don't want to do it themselves or for lack of candiates can't train/maintain the positions. But seeing Fabius Bile is still doing it 10M years later it indicates that there is at least one person still making marines.

 

 

On Legion sizes:

There was no codex, so we can never be sure of the sizes of Legions.

The number of chapters started post heresy could be because of the losses during the Heresy, so the numbers post heresy are not really an indication of pre-heresy sizes. The EC had 30 great companies, the Iron Warriors had 12. We don't know the structure nor the size of either.

 

The only source of any information on the sizes is dubious at best (horus heresy card game) so I won't bring that up.

 

The next best source of size would be the Ultra Marines. And the number of chapters they created, though their existance is revisionistic from the intial creation of 40k, so we can assume this is the "new intent" of size. I think they broke into 29 sub chapters or so (2nd founding) so this would indicate legions in the 30,000 size.

 

If we introduce the Horus Heresy card game (poor but lets), they mention the Imperial Fists sending 18 Battle Barges and other ships to Istavaan to support the attack there. If we assume 3 companies per barge (my BFG knowlege is weak) we could assume 54 Companies of marines went (deployable companies), plus another bunch of companies deployed on Terra and other places. So we can probably guess 60+ companies. Now this may indicate 6 Chapter sizes (10 companies per chapter). After the losses of the Heresey they still split into 3 Chapters (IF, BT, CF).

 

But again, the number of marines that "seeded" The individual chapters post heresy is in question. Also, how long after the Heresy till the Codex could be a factor (i.e. replacing forces, initial speed, activity post heresy).

 

 

 

 

On equipment

The one incontrivertable piece of fluff through the history of the 40k game is the control the Adeptus Mechanicus had on the war and materials of the Imperium.

 

As I have much the same idea for my army, the problem comes down to equipment. While there would be Goliath ships, and other manufactium ships, the process of building war material has always gone to the Mechanicus. This has never been referenced to be otherwise in 40k.

 

So that one, I haven't found a way around. Though the inclusion of Goliath and "maintanence" equipment in "grand companies" to supply the Great companies as they travelled. They would expanding quickly, creating new great companies and the imperium spreading out, would lend credence to this.

 

 

But RT is helping make your fluff tighter (and more thought out), so it is a good process to follow.

[Einsatz]

Yea, I still have major bugs to fix.

 

RT has done a great job pointing me in the right directions, without saying "it can't be done, move along". :P

 

I will continue to build on what I have and look into the options of pre-heresy. The great thing about the game is it's lack of exacts. There is plenty of room for what ifs and maybes. It's all a matter of how you look at the game.

 

Of course some fluff is unbreakable. But, even then it remains questionable. Not rules of course, just fluff.

 

Apothecaries

I think the legions during the crusade would have been much more self supportive. Many of the drawbacks current marines face (lack of armor, gene seed testing, authorized limits to numbers) came after the heresy. A force on crusade would have had to have been able to support itself. And maybe some STC's were found along the way :lol: . I think about the WE and their pyscho-surgery to create shock troops. They did that on their own. And we know that much technology has been lost over the last 10K years.

 

Equipment

I'm thinking about building them like 13th company. Mixing chaos armor with loyal. It shows a replacement of damaged equipment with new equipment. Hence the reason for "growing" the loyal gene seed for testing.

 

Discovery

My biggest hole in the fluff is how they managed to hide for so long. If they sent troops to battle, why were they noy found to be heretics? I think this will be the biggest stumbling block to my fluff. But, then again if they didn't turn to chaos they would have no qualms about fighting agaist chaos/heretics/rebels.

 

Better days.

[Tubal]

The next best source of size would be the Ultra Marines.  And the number of chapters they created, though their existance is revisionistic from the intial creation of 40k, so we can assume this is the "new intent" of size.  I think they broke into 29 sub chapters or so (2nd founding) so this would indicate legions in the 30,000 size.

Actually, the Ultramarines is not a good indicator either. The Ultramarines were always a large legion due to the number of planets in Ultramar supplying recruits. Additionally they were almost untouched by the main part of the heresy, having been tricked down to the galactic south by Horus, and after the heresy they went into a massive recruitment drive that meant that when the codex came they reoresented half of the loyal marines. I'd say most legions were about half to two thirds of the Ultramarines final size during the crusade. 10-15 chapters or so.

 

Discovery

My biggest hole in the fluff is how they managed to hide for so long. If they sent troops to battle, why were they noy found to be heretics? I think this will be the biggest stumbling block to my fluff. But, then again if they didn't turn to chaos they would have no qualms about fighting agaist chaos/heretics/rebels.

With chapters like the Flesh Tearers around this might be the least of your problems. As long as the Night Lords can remember to shout "for the Emperor" every once in a while they should be ok. Marines often remain apart from other forces anyway so it would not be seen as overly supicious if they only kept contact by astropath/radio.

[refuse]

Apothecaries

I think the legions during the crusade would have been much more self supportive. Many of the drawbacks current marines face (lack of armor, gene seed testing, authorized limits to numbers) came after the heresy. A force on crusade would have had to have been able to support itself. And maybe some STC's were found along the way <_< . I think about the WE and their pyscho-surgery to create shock troops. They did that on their own. And we know that much technology has been lost over the last 10K years.

True.

That is the opinion I take, i.e. the "fleet" had support along with them, or in my version of the Emperors Children, the newest great company had the responsibility for maintaining the "support" fleet. Thus they trained their adepts (apothicaries/techmarines), built their str (what was built over what the other great companies needed was added to their str). They created the new marines for the other companies (training for adpets), and trained them (trained their "vets"), until they were full strength (for a great company). From there, another great company would be started, with the maintenence and support personell now reporting to the new Great Company, while the earlier company started fighting, and then being resuplied by the new great company.