+ IA: Imperial Castellans +

[Ferrata]

Getting your bloody dictionary out :lol: Yeah, I actually meant the first one. It just that the second one to me, I would call "Snobbish" :ph34r:

 

How I see elite, squads of say 6 men in a razorback. 3 bolters, melta, multi-melta and combi-melta. Maybe use the forgeworld multi-melta razorback for a squad which has a set task. Kind of like the special forces.

 

Ferrata

[Daeothar]

Sgt Smilez has some nice points there. But I'd like to see that guard maybe existing out of such pious pilgrims that they joined this unit. after all for most planets to send pilgrims to a cardinal world, it would take several generations to reach it, so the ones arriving would not have a home to go back to. joining this guard or maybe even navy units would allow them so serve even further.

 

Arriving on Dimmamar, their piety would be fueled to unknown hights by the experience, the priests, their speaches and masshysteria; they would do anything for the Emperor at that point!

 

I like the emphasis on Chaplains too; seems only natural for them to go that direction.

 

And I can see their units being both Elite and Elitist by the way. Their piety and duty, honour and aforementioned feeling of superiority due to their isolated duties, would make them arrogant and snobbish indeed. But with good right too; as they would have to be very much top notch to perform the actions they routinely face...

 

I can see them indeed worshipping the Emperor as a God-man. influenced by the pilgrims they protect.

 

Still can't seem to find a way to make the warning lights thing work though. Perhaps as a local warning system; warning neighbouring fortresses of a raid taking place there. I can imagine that a garrisson might be without an Astropath at some point. With those religious fanatics abhorring mutants and psychers, accidents happen in remote areas... :lol:

 

Seriously though; that might be a disadvantage to consider; Have Faith In Suspicion, due to their highly religious background (which would be even strengthened by the fact they might recruit from the pilgrims themselves).

[SGT. Smilez]

Way to put a creative spin on my idea Daeothar!

 

I think that they would make heavy use of Techmarines as well. With all that ancient terminator armor, tanks, and the fact that they are on a ship most of the time, means that they need more Techmarines than usual to repair all that battle damage.

[Brother Sergeant Alasseo]

Well the original idea of some telescope type thing wasn't too odd, it just couldn't be an optical one, (or radio for that matter). As I briefly mentioned earlier, there are examples in fluff of devices able to show what is happening across a sector without the use of psykers or any appreciable time lag due to lightspeed, travelling time in the warp, etc...

 

And I agree that Have Faith in Suspicion would probably be a good trait for them to have, what with the piety and pilgrims and all, but I would have thought that a fleet-based (or primarily fleet-deployed, as opposed to ground-based) chapter would be slightly more tolerant of mutants such as astropaths and navigators. On the other hand, the BT don't like abhumans and psykers at all, and just keep them around as a necessary evil.

[ironloki]

Well Elites are Elitist and most Elitists want or aspire to be Elites ;) -Confusing :lol:

 

Still can't seem to find a way to make the warning lights thing work though. Perhaps as a local warning system; warning neighbouring fortresses of a raid taking place there

 

Mobile phones? :P Or perhaps there is always a chain of planets/ships which send messages through each other. Or you could go for an Edinburgh 1 O'Clock gun system?

 

Sounding good so far. I'll have a better read one i've got paint off me ^_^

[Zhivago]

How about having the Vindicators acting as a mobile artillery force from special gun-decks on the battle barges, and firing melta shells which cause hull breaches in support of the boarding operations?  The bombardment cannon etc are pretty powerful, heavy calibre weapons, and when a ship is incapacitated, the marine vessel can close, and the Vindicator "battery" can demolish a section of hul in one salvo, rather then the marines uisng plsma cutters and phase field generators to work their way inside...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I like the idea, but I'm not sure it would work. While a vindicators range would probably be increased in space most distances in naval combat are measured in thousands of kilometres. I can't remember what a normal average boarding distance is, but I think its around 5000 Km, a vindicator just wouldnt be able to cope.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And as vindiator shells use gunpowder to give the shell the velocity, such weapon would be quit hard to use in space enciroment. Ship cannon fir magneticly projected shells, unless I remeber completely wrong.

 

The suggested pilgrim/supply route is an interesting one, and that would probably give them enough reason to be there. I actually liked the signal fire suggestion, but there isn't an easy way to get it to work around intersteller distances. The multiple homeworlds idea and small fortresses along the route sounds worthwhile though. So the reserve Companies would man the fortresses and home worlds, while the Battle Companies pulled escort duty?

Hmm, but isn't escorting imperial navy duty ? Marines are meant for planetfalls, and last stand scenarios, right ? I'm not saying it is bad idea, it just feels bit odd. Feels bad to say this after you seem to have consensus on this.

 

Maybe they should have heavy ties with the Imperial Guard too. From what I understand, you want them to act very shooty, much like the guard. They also could use them in conjunction with their marines stationed on the various planets. The added reinforcements would make sure their hold on planet is increased. The Imperial guard would hold the fortresses with maybe a squad of marines to represent the chapter and command the local forces, while the Castellans guard the route.

 

Now, on that warning signal system, prehaps this formentione spacemarine squad serves as bodyguard for local astropath, so that he/she can send the signal onwards ?

 

 

And while space marines are NOT bodyguards, we have seen one to accompany imperial ambassador to Tau world :lol:

 

Prehaps add humanism as one of indetifying traits ? ie, like salamaders.

 

my 2 seashells.

[SGT. Smilez]

I have an idea for the warning system. They could use drone ships with a pre-recorded message that is broadcasted over the radio and sent to the nearest garrison.

 

A little radical, I know but it would sure be cool. :lol:

[Zhivago]

  I have an idea for the warning system. They could use drone ships with a pre-recorded message that is broadcasted over the radio and sent to the nearest garrison.

 

A little radical, I know but it would sure be cool.

 

Hmm, one small problem. Ships (apparently) needs navigator to get around warp. I think they can enter one, but not getting lost around is navigator job.

 

Why is lack of navigators a propblem ?

 

Distance.

 

System = star system (or I think so and according to all maps I've seen)

 

distances between stars are measured in lightyears. And even if drone coud travel 0.5c-0.9c it would be still simply too slow. (Our closest star is about 4 lightyears away)

 

Thoose drones remind me of Crest of the Stars :lol:

 

EDIT: typo killing

Edited August 9, 2005 by Zhivago

[Ferrata]

Maybe we should shift the discussion towards character over facts. Maybe use 3 words to describe the chapter, like the Space Wolves you could use feral, savage, pack etc

 

Ferrata

[Commissar Molotov]

- So we have a possible area of operation in the Ghoul Stars, with the Castellans protecting the route taken my Pilgrims heading towards the Cardinal World of Dinammar.

 

The main problem I have with this is that it's an Ecclesiarchal world. The chapter would have no connection to the saints venerated on Dinammar and that could cause problems. To the Ecclesiarchy, they effectively have heretics protecting the routes to their cardinal world. I think the Navy are more likely to protect the routes, so that could cause problems. We perhaps need something the marines would have more of a stake/personal interest in.

 

Recruitment is conducted both on their homeworld and on Dimmamar. Actually, the bulk of the recruitment takes place there. Pilgrims that made the dangerous voyage are overwhelmed by a gulf of piety and offer their children to the chapter to be inducted to be marines. Perhaps only the children that have been born en route to the Cardinal World?

Problem here is the agreement made between the Ecclesiarchy and the Astartes (2nd ed Codex Sisters of Battle) which stated that the Ecclesiarchy promised not to send missionaries to marine homeworlds, whilst the marines did not interfere with the Adeptus Ministorum. It would fly in the face of that to recruit directly from the shrine world.

 

-----------

I like the idea of the dotted fortresses along whichever route we eventually decide on. perhaps the planetary governors have donated vessels to the chapter.

 

The key idea we have to balance is how often the Castellans are likely to deploy on the ground. If their main focus is ship-to-ship action, as we'd semi-agreed, then devastator squads, tanks and the like would be really quite rare. While there are areas large enough to permit the use of tanks, these would not be the majority, I feel.

 

int: a chapter that specialises in boarding actions would probably not favour artillery; as that means firing a large, inaccurate explosive inside a pressurized vessel that is just full of conduits carrying plasma to power the various parts of the ship. When you consider the fact that Battlefleet Security carry modified autoguns (firing low velocity, low recoil, frangible rounds) so they don't puncture the hull or something else vital, then carrying a vindicator there doesn't seem to work.

 

That said, once they get dirtside, they're home free, and can make as much mess as they want. Given the mentality we seem to be going after, I suspect that they would maintain a force of Vindicators just on the offchance that they can blow something up planetside

 

The Navy use "shotcannons", as I understand.

 

I'm just not sure if the chapter would use Vindicators just because they can. "Oh, I fancy a change," said Chapter Master Bob. "Let's use Vindicators, just cause we can!".

 

 

 

 

The idea of using Vindicators as cannons on Battle Barge decks is sadly ineffective, considering the huge range that would be required.

 

 

I rather liked Daeothar's idea of having a host of marines at each outpost, operating as guardians and gatekeepers. Perhaps a company at each outpost or the like. Perhaps the companies rotate at each outpost. Ak's ideas that the reserve companies man the fortresses is a good one, but that means the Castellan's reserve companies would not be as specialised as a codex chapters'.

 

 

Heh, with Elitist tendencies and over-zealous religious aspects these are sounding remarkably like the Castigators.... :lol:

 

I'm not certain that we've come up with a good justification for them being elitist other than it sounds good. I'd say it clashes remarkably with the idea of having an open door to the pilgrims and being good hosts.

 

A note on UM Gene-seed. In no way does it make a chapter uncharacterful; for example the Mortifactors are Ultramarines successors. It can be just what we need if we're trying not to draw attention to gene-seed. "My chapter has this! and this! and they have mutated like this!" can sometimes draw attention too many ways.

 

That said, Imperial Fist successors would be a decent enough choice to me. There are obvious links with the Black Templars who are space-borne.

[Ferrata]

I'm not certain that we've come up with a good justification for them being elitist other than it sounds good. I'd say it clashes remarkably with the idea of having an open door to the pilgrims and being good hosts

 

Well, here is how I would justify it.

 

Smaller Forces in the same place due to area of defence

Forces spread across the longish route, forcing the Chapter to seperate companies into two. Maybe call them 5th Company [homeworld 1] & 5th Company [homeworld 2]

Smaller Armies tend to be better man-to-man

Look at the GK. They are better, so have smaller armies. IG bigger so have worse trained men. It works both ways. If your a smaller force, you have to be better to survive

Each marine becomes better then average

Chapter becomes arragont because they are better man to man

 

Ferrata

[Commissar Molotov]

I get your reasoning, but do they have to be arrogant simply because they're good? Humility is a trait firmly encouraged with marines, otherwise you end up with the Marines Malevolent.

 

I fully believe that the Marines Malevolent hold Imperial citizens in contempt and perceive themselves to be self-evidently superior to their fellow man. While biologically this may indeed be the case, I feel it is a worrying psychological trait that has not only brought about the deaths of nearly four thousand refugees and members of the Adeptus Ministorum, but shows a worryingly egotistical streak in the command structure of the Marines Malevolent.

Edited August 9, 2005 by Commissar Molotov

[Shadey]

I like the idea of two chapter homeworlds, its different and makes sense.

 

I agree that it is more interesting and better suited to have them from the Imperial Fists, but I am pretty sure they are from the Ultramarines.

 

I don't think that sitting around guarding is too far from standard marine doctrine. In the Angels of Darkness book there was a small garison of marines. Besides the alternative if to make them ship boarding specialists which basically makes them uber assault troops and should probably be represented like that on the battlefield, which is what most people dont want yet another of.

 

As far as the battle tactics I mentioned, I see your point. I was trying to tie in to the image of someone sitting behind castle walls letting the enemy come to him. However even in boarding actions you could have them rely on firepower over assualt troops, or when attacking a pirate stronghold or ork outpost they could be backed up with lots of tank support such as whirlwinds and demolishers.

 

I prefer that image too and in an ammendment to what I said above, the hunting the pirates option does not totally preclude the defensive firepower set up I suppose. But shipboardings by their nature are VERY assault orientated. Perhaps they avoid boarding ships where possible, maybe even have access to navy ships for ship to ship combat. Maybe they really love to plaster something with firepower before boaring/assaulting the base, that keeps the firepower aspect while still keeping them flexible and skilled in all areas, they are marines after all.

 

It should also be noted that marine ships tend to be designed more with planetery attack and ground support options in mind rather than ship to ship combat.

 

Another idea is perhaps they do not have any one area of operation but squads are deployed on board any ships with valuable cargo that are likely to be attacked. This can happen anywhere, iirc daemons have attacked ships while in the warp despite the gellar shields. Though I am just throwing this out there, personally I prefer some of the other ideas already mentioned like the Knights Templar idea of protecting the pilgrims. Would that be important enough to justify the use of marines in a more defensive role?

 

If the pilgrimage protectors idea is used, I certainly see a more modest, humanities servants kind of mindset, acting closely with other humans. I don't think acting in small groups would create an elitist mindset. Arrogance has never been an advantage in elite forces, and most of them know it. I agree with the Commissar.

 

I do not beleive just because they are deployed in fewer numbers will make them better. Grey Knights are better trained and equiped in the first place (and perhaps they have the pick of the more talented), that allows them to be deployed in fewer numbers, it is not really a result of. The Knights templar were also encouraged to be humble. They are in a way working for these pilgrims, again to me that seems to encourage a more humble mindset.

 

I like the vindicator idea. If the ship got into dozens of kilometres it would be doable. Can't see this really happening though, would be overly dangerous.

 

A quick search found a few usable names, http://www.tylwythteg.com/templar.html has a few, if not people actually affiliated it also has a few good sounding names. There would be better sites out there too just google em. I am partial to Hugh de Payen, Voel and de Montfort.

 

I love the acolyte preist idea.

 

As for rules are we going to use the rather limited trait idea or attempt to balance our own rules?

Marine veterans to represent the trainee acolytes? Perhaps with some approaite skills, the only things I can think off are the ones they get when lead by a Chaplain anyway. Perhaps they get litanies of hate constantly, but that would be powerfull, maybe for a points cost.

Two fast attack for one heavy support ala Iron Warriors?

0-1 bike sqaudrons and landspeeders?

 

And for the telescope idea perhaps some kind of technological telepathy, sure many though would find that heretical.. Still could add another layer. It could play into have faith in suspicion if done right.

 

There is a precedence for marines following the ecclesiarchial religious practices, unless it was a DIY chapter I am thinking of.

[Brother Sergeant Alasseo]

The key idea we have to balance is how often the Castellans are likely to deploy on the ground. If their main focus is ship-to-ship action, as we'd semi-agreed, then devastator squads, tanks and the like would be really quite rare. While there are areas large enough to permit the use of tanks, these would not be the majority, I feel...

...I'm just not sure if the chapter would use Vindicators just because they can. "Oh, I fancy a change," said Chapter Master Bob. "Let's use Vindicators, just cause we can!".

I feel they would follow the doctrine of irresistible force: if you're performing a boarding action then you need to go OTT or be driven back by the superior numbers of the enemy crew. With that in mind, it is logical that they would throw pretty much everything at a vulnerable point and then just watch the enemy crumble.

 

Now, if they end up with a tough ship to take then they risk just leaving scorch marks, and as everyone knows

Rule 36: If you're leaving scorch marks, you need a bigger gun

What's bigger than a vindicator that isn't ship- or titan-mounted?

 

The advantage of such an attitude is that there would very rarely be any enemy survivors to deal with, and the pilgrims we (sort of) agree they protect are going to be that much safer for the marines permanently destroying that particular threat. It might be seen as overkill, but

Rule 37: There is no overkill, there is only "open fire" and "time to reload"

 

The Commissar also makes a really good point about the practicalities of recruiting from Dimmamar itself (or even from among the pilgrims). I've never managed to get hold of the 2nd ed SoB codex, but I do remember reading that little tidbit elsewhere. Perhaps each of the way-keeps (or whatever we're going to call them) has a duty to recruit from the local populace?

 

As for the problem that a lot of people seem to be throwing up, about boarding actions being close, bloody affairs with lots of uber-melee going on, well, just look at what the humble tac marine is armed with: a rapid firing rpgl. Firing off a bolter in close quarters is always going to be bloody, especially against people unlikely to be wearing the sort of heavy armour that will protect them from it. Not to mention the numerous bad guys likely to go down with shrapnel wounds from exploding bolt shells.

Speaking of shrapnel; there is a reason shotguns and shotcannons are so popular with the navy: they unleash a hail of micro-shrapnel with each shot. Now, imagine the carnage you could do with a weapon that could deliver a greater amount of shrapnel, at a greater range (so you have more time to worry about survivors).

Bingo: justification for missile launchers loaded with frag (and so by extension, devastators).

 

I still stand by my comments on artillery, though (if you can safely use big guns to achieve an objective, then do so, otherwise don't: explosive decompression sucks)

[Cpt_Tiberius]

Here are my thoughts...

 

Attitude: Pious, noble, resolute.

 

I would like to see a marine chapter that actually cares about the common man. As far as I know the only chapter that mingles with humans are the Sallies. It would be nice to have these marines who have a similiar theme to the Templars but are driven by their sacred mandate to keep the pilgrims safe.

 

You could give them ties to the Echlesiarchy (sp?) but they don't necessarily have to be strict adherents to the Imperial Crede. The real Knights Templar are rumored to have dabbled in witch craft, pagan worship, and other non church approved activites. So are guys don't have to be anti-psycher, but if you guys wanna take them that way it's fine by me.

 

As for the vindicators in space, just doesn't seem tactically sound. If you are trying to recapture an imperial ship, you don't want to blow it to bitz in the process. For boarding actions I see the folowing force make up:

 

Strong spearhead of termies, followed up by tactical marines to secure the captured areas.

 

I also like the chaplain heavy chapter idea, mainly because they are my favorite models. But also because they could spur their brethern to honour their oaths and protect ythe innocent.

 

I think french/germanic names would be highly appropriate, and am all for it.

 

I like the idea of a non-standard chapter organization. They could be organized by the standard 10 companies, but generally operate as 20 half-sized companies. Or we could have them be closer to the organization of the Black templars, but instead of crusades they could be small knightly units of 20-30 marines per outpost, with larger contingents at the two fortress-monastaries. We could incorporate the mixed squads, neo-phytes and adepts in one squad, but not use the oaths. Kind of a blend between vanilla marines and BT's. Anyway just a thought.

 

Well that's what I have so far. I really like what we have so far, this is turning out pretty cool so far.

[my_name_is_tudor]

I actually like the elitist idea. Perhaps the Castellans see themselves as the saving grace of these pilgrims, without them they would be prey to countless terrible races. And if we also say that they are very very pious, they might consider the pilgrims they protect as some of the most important citizens in the Imperium - maybe they beleive that this sort of worship (but on a galactic scale) is the only way to save the Imperium - and therefore their duty is seen by them as incredibly important.

 

If anything along those lines were true I could easily see the Castellans being elitist, as if they beleive themselves to be favoured in the eyes of the ecclesiarchy, and thus the Emperor. Where other Chapters have countless disagreements with the ecclesiarchy who generally see space marines as a highly unorthodox - but unfortunately neccessary force.

 

Perhaps castellans are assigned to particularly important groups of pilgrims, say just a couple of veterans or something.

[ironloki]

There still remains the slight problem that the commisar came out with

 

Problem here is the agreement made between the Ecclesiarchy and the Astartes (2nd ed Codex Sisters of Battle) which stated that the Ecclesiarchy promised not to send missionaries to marine homeworlds, whilst the marines did not interfere with the Adeptus Ministorum. It would fly in the face of that to recruit directly from the shrine world.

 

Also the Ecclesiarchy are not allowed to have "men" at arms are they?

 

We could get around this by. The Ecclesiarchy as sneakily expanding their influence by using a marine chapter. Or perhaps the shrine world was in such peril that they had to make concessions and bring the marines in to protect it? The last one fits better though.

 

Although I liked the elitist idea - I love arrogant marines with contempt for everything :tu: . Is that really good for marines who are supposed to be protecting pilgrims? Pride is a sin ;) (such was the dilema of knights). Perhaps they Feel they are good at their job when compared to other chapters but you would have to watch that it didn't turn to the pilgrims (unless you really want a darker secret ^_^ ;) )

[Daeothar]

The Echlessiarchy has tried to bring Space Marine chapters in line before. Most chapters protested adamantly and it came to blows (can't remember the name of the conflict) but perhaps the Castellans didn't and are actually cooperating with the Echlessiarchy? The Imperial Cult would then be the only dogma followed by the Castellans.

 

This distances them from the other chapters andeven though they respect eachother's martial prowess, the religious position of the Castellans would be questionable to the other chapters.

 

This would force them further into the embrace of the Imperial Cult, perhaps to the point where they would start to feel superior to the other chapters. Sort of like a defensive mechanism you can see in individuals as well...

[my_name_is_tudor]

Perhaps they have taken on the belief that most outside religious observers of space marine ceremonies have: that the space marine chapters are skirting heresy, or if not heresy then profanity and sin, in their rituals and beliefs. And so they see themselves as above the other chapters in a religious aspect.

[Daeothar]

Exactly! :tu:

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

I rather like the idea of them having closer then normal ties to the Ecclesiarchy, but not actually following their Dogma. Seriously, unless the original Chaplain went by the credo of the Ecclesiarchy, its probably not likely. Good idea in general, but maybe not the specifics.

 

Recruiment could be from the children of the pilgrims, which I think is a delightfully original idea, by...bah, can't remember. As long as the recruitment doesn't take place on Dimmamar, the Castellans are in the clear and have a group of devoted recruits, albeit perhaps not the best physical specimens. They could make up what little else they need from the way-keeps.

 

For the way-keeps (nice name, by the way), if we want to use the Reserve companies I'd advocate no more then six keeps, preferably five. With that, you can split each Tactical reserve company up and combine them with the Devastator and Assault companies to have almost a full company (minus two tac squads) per way-keep.

 

Organisation wise, keeping it codex would work easily. Cpt_Tiberius plan could easily work, and its completely within the Codex. Now, here's a question we haven't touched on. They specialize in boarding ops and attacking outposts/ships that endanger the route, right? So what does the 10th Company do? Without powered and sealed armor, they may well be just a bit screwed in ship to ship action, or attacking asteroid outposts. Groundside, they're fine, but what about up there? (possible idea below)

 

I personally favor the use of Devastator squads and vehicles in boarding actions, due to the heavy weight of fire they can put down (Devs and HBs), or the sheer surprise factor and cover advantage a tank implies. As long as you don't fire at critical components, or use specialized ammunition to avoid the problem, a Demolisher cannon would make a boarding force nigh unstoppable. Barricade? BOOM. Fortified and sandbagged defenses? KA-BOOOOM. Suicide charge? VOOOM-SPLATTER.

 

Now, perhaps an interesting throwback to the "defense and fortification mindset". Maybe in the boarding actions, the First Company spearhead carry massive tower shields, forming a wall of faith and admantine? It would look cool, and shouldn't be too hard to get done well. WHFB has a great range of shields, after all. Once admitted to the Veteran Company, they swear mighty oaths and become staunch members of the Order of the Defender, or something along those lines. This can just as easily be applied to the 10th Company, instead of the 1st. To become a full brother, they must show discipline and bravery under fire, unflinching dedication to the cause. :tu:

[Daeothar]

In that light, would it be possible under the present traits system to make them Stubborn?

 

That would fit...

[Ferrata]

In that light, would it be possible under the present traits system to make them Stubborn?

 

To actually have the stubborn skill, no. But to represent it, yes. Take Purity above All. Instead of modelling them as apothacaries, model them as lesser Chaplains. Ignoring Armour Save - Fighting on even after unbearable pain

Ignore Morale Check - Stubbornish

 

Maybe we can have them as really pious, elite armies.

 

Ferrata

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

Heh, nifty idea.

 

So, in summary, we have thus far:

 

-Fleet and planet based chapter, two homewords and several Way-Keeps along the area they guard/escort. Way-Keeps garrisoned with Reserve Companies. Has Imperial Guard auxilia?

 

-Pious in mindset, and possibly arrogant or elitist. Exceptionally stubborn? Follows Ecclesiarchy dogma?

 

-Recruits from Way-Keep worlds, and homeworlds. Recruits from children of pilgrim immigrants?

 

-Is an older chapter, with a larger number of Terminator suits then most. Specializes in boarding actions and elimination of threats to supply/pilgrim route that they guard. First Company as shield wall? Tenth Company as shield Wall?

 

-Has a deliberate and methodical style to warfare? Prefers large numbers of heavy guns?

[ironloki]

If they think they are the best/elite I doubt they would like to work with Guard :tu: .

 

So what are the planets they recruit from like? Feral, modern, Hive?