Nash Trickster Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 I was talking about the Soul Drinkers with a friend today (he's just finished reading The Bleeding Chalice) and he raised an interesting point: if the Soul Drinkers were erased from the Imperial archives, what happened to their successor chapter(s) (if they have one)? This discussion gave me the basic idea for a new chapter and here's the result, C&C more than welcome! The Righteous Wronged The Paladins of Dorn Space Marines Chapter Heraldry: http://pageperso.aol.fr/NashTrickster/Paladins_heraldry.JPG Colors: (White with Gold trim, Aquila, kneepads and helmet) http://pageperso.aol.fr/NashTrickster/Paladins.JPG Geneseed: Rogal Dorn, more precisely Soul Drinkers. Foundation: 15th-ish Homeworld: Marmande. Located in the Segmentum Tempestus, near the southern border of the Ork empire of the Arch-Butcher of Vorrak. Medieval level of technology. Feodal type. Covered with lush forests (87% of the lands) full of wild beast and from which Feral Orks attack regularly. Origins/History: First was a crusading chapter. While coming back from the galactic South where they had cleansed a world infested by Hrud, their route crossed a massive Space Hulk. Boarding the Space Hulk they discovered it was part of a Waagh heading towards Marmande but the "pilots" had lost their way. After destroying the Space Hulk by making its Plasma reactors overload, they headed towards Marmande. When they landed on the planet, they found the population already besieged by the rest of the Waagh, unable to hold the tide of green skins with their rudimentary weapons. More than half of the castels were already in the hands of the xenos. The Waagh had only one Gargant and the Paladins supposed that the Big Boss must be part of the tribe located near the titan, they therefore launched a massive attack against that position, and won, killing the Big Boss, Kahrkull, lieutenant of the Arch-Butcher. Having lost their Big Boss, the moral of the Orks fell and the Marines could easily drive them off the planet. Knowing the Orks only retreat to regroup and attack again, the Chapter Master decided that it was the chapter's duty to keep watch on the poor souls they had saved and set their fortress monastery on Marmande's moon. The superstitious population, having only understood part of the quick catechism done by the Marines before they left for the moon, and seeing some time later a shiny dot appear on that very moon, renamed their moon "Dorn" and said that the shiny spot (the marines monastery) was "The Ever Watching, All Seeing Eye of Dorn" keeping watch on His flock. Ever since the Waagh's first intrusion in the system, regularly Feral Orks attack from the immense forests covering the planet and the Marines only intervene on the planet when the population is overwhelmed. But they often fought the Waaghs of the Arch-Butcher in deep space, protecting the system. When the Soul Drinkers rebelled, the Inquisition immediately became suspicious about the chapters created from its geneseed. When the Ordo Hereticus secretely inspected Marmande, they found the inhabitants venerating Dorn and His "All Seeing Eye", regularly indulging in blood sacrifices in the honor of their protector, and saw this as bordering on Heresy. But Inquisitor Tibald, who was heading the mission, was intelligent enough to realize that it was only a misunderstanding from the population which had led them to this false belief. He saw there an occasion to test the chapter's loyalty to the Imperium and asked them to use their influence on the population to bring them back on the right path (even if he knew such a demand was exceeding his prerogatives). The Chapter Master, realizing the extent threat hanging above his chapter, obeyed half-heartedly and sent some of his marines to act as missionaries on the planet and convert the population to "The True Faith". If that move convinced Inquisitor Tibald that the Chapter was loyal, it was not the case of his superior who sent another Inquisitor to secretly keep watch on the chapter. The Marines quickly discovered the watchers and took offense... The whole chapter's fleet, but a small contingent formed from the ranks of the 9th company, quickly left and headed straight toward the system's Lord Inquisitor's stronghold at full speed. Once in orbit of the Inquisitor's planet, the Chapter Master contacted the Inquisitor Lord, telling him that if they had been renegade or heretics, as he apparently believed, he would be dead by now. this daring move made the Lord Inquisitor understand his mistake and somehow solved the problem. But the Chapter Master's fury had made him leave his fief badly protected and, having pushed their fleet beyond its limits to reach the Inquisitorial stronghold before anyone could react (a trip that nevertheless lasted over a month), they had to be "gentle" on the machinery on their way back... When they finally reached their system they found their Fortress Monastery aflame and Marmande swarming with Orks. The fight was much harder than the first time and, when the Orks were finally driven back out of the system, over 80% of the population was dead. The chapter has lost almost half of its forces in the desperate battle to correct their mistake and will not be able to find enough recruits on its homeworld to get back to full potential for at least a few generations. Moreover, thinking that it was their convertion to the new belief system which had made the green skins come back, the remaining population returned to their old belief system and the worship of Dorn. Even if they are not responsible, if the Inquisition came to know this, the chapter might be in trouble... EDIT: Organization/Combat Doctrine ===== And now a few questions: Does anyone know when approximately the 15th founding took place? I'd like to be able to devellop the history of the chapter when it was crusading and knowing when I can include it in the timeline would surely help me... Do you know any source of fluff for the Arch-Maniak? I picked that one "at random" from the Codex Ork but if there's already fluff for him I'd better check it to see if I can fit my chapter in or not... I have changed of computer and lost part of my bookmarks, and I can't find a detailled map of the Segmentum Tempestus. I remind seeing one with the planet serving as the Inquisitorial headquarters for the segmentum marked on it, but I can't find it anymore. Can anyone help me with this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/84965-ia-paladins-of-dorn/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 The Soul Drinkers are a second-founding chapter. Second-Founding Chapters don't have successors (in the strictest sense). Your marines would be Imperial Fists successors - they might be using progenoids taken from Soul Drinkers marines, but they would, in all likelihood, trace their lineage back to Dorn and venerate him appropriately. I would suggest that you create your own Ork tyrant to use in Marmande's history, rather than using the Arch-Maniak. I don't think that any decent Chapter Master would leave his homeworld completely undefended. In most chapters, there's usually a company of marines guarding the homeworld at any one time. However, there's some interesting ideas here; I like the feral worship of Dorn, and the way that the natives convert back to their old ways. However, unless the belief system is declared to be heretical, they can believe pretty much what they want - it's a Space Marine homeworld, after all. The Ecclesiarchy doesn't have a say. In answer to your question, you won't find a confirmed date for the 15th Founding. Consider that there's probably six millenia or so between the founding and the present day. Don't waste your time making a terribly detailed timeline. If you must, start from .M36, after the Age of Apostasy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/84965-ia-paladins-of-dorn/#findComment-982518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Trickster Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 The Soul Drinkers are a second-founding chapter. Second-Founding Chapters don't have successors (in the strictest sense). Your marines would be Imperial Fists successors - they might be using progenoids taken from Soul Drinkers marines, but they would, in all likelihood, trace their lineage back to Dorn and venerate him appropriately.That's somehow what I understood too... But the fluff do say that every chapter (whatever the founding) has to hand part of its geneseed for testing and to allow the creation of new chapters. Since the Magos avoid mixing geneseed, I think that a chapter which would be created from a second founding chapter's geneseed (for example) could know its origins (even if they would indeed venerate their primarch). And even if the chapter ignored the fact (which would be problematic in my case somehow) the Inquisition would probably have the means to know such a thing. And when the "parent" chapter is declared Traitoris, and suspected of mutation, they would investigate the "successors" for traces of corruption... But if you see a better way to turn the idea, I'm all ears! ;) However, unless the belief system is declared to be heretical, they can believe pretty much what they want - it's a Space Marine homeworld, after all. The Ecclesiarchy doesn't have a say.I'll have to make it clear in the next draft that the Inquisitor somehow goes beyond his normal "rights", using the threat which hangs over the chapter because of the Soul Drinkers' rebellion, when he asks that the Marines "correct" the Faith of the inhabitants of Marmande... I think it brings something to the story ;)And, if the Inquisition was to discover that the inhabitants reverted to their old practices (which I may make bordering on the barbaric if need be), they could say that the Marines, while ordered by the Holy Inquisition to make this Heresy stop, lied (pretending to obey) and let it go on... After all, who's deciding what's heresy and what's not? Who's Judge, Jury and executioner? :P I would suggest that you create your own Ork tyrant to use in Marmande's history, rather than using the Arch-Maniak.Well, that can be easily done... I'll just have to find a name ;) I don't think that any decent Chapter Master would leave his homeworld completely undefended. In most chapters, there's usually a company of marines guarding the homeworld at any one time.Now that's just a brain-fart on my part... I'll correct that in the next draft, anyway the Orks can take advantage of the defenses being at an "all time low" even if one company remains it can be easily submerged by a green tide :blink: In answer to your question, you won't find a confirmed date for the 15th Founding. Consider that there's probably six millenia or so between the founding and the present day. Don't waste your time making a terribly detailed timeline. If you must, start from .M36, after the Age of Apostasy.Actually, I wanted the Paladins to be already around at the time of the Age of Apostasy and perhaps participate in some actions against Vandire's forces. I wanted to use this to show how "righteous" the chapter is, making it even more unfair that they are suspected simply because the Soul Drinkers went renegade... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/84965-ia-paladins-of-dorn/#findComment-982536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 Well, I think you're well on the way to creating a decent chapter, then. Your arguments regarding the Soul Drinkers have convinced me. Perhaps to further cement the bond, the chapter could have been trained with or operated alongside the Soul Drinkers. This'd give the Inquisition cause for concern. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/84965-ia-paladins-of-dorn/#findComment-982541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Trickster Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 I have edited the History/Origins part and a few other things in my first post to reflect the changes suggested and the clarification required. I have started to think about the organization of the chapter, knowing it would be what dictates the Traits it would use in game terms. The Restriction being pretty evident from the chapter's recent history (i.e.Faithful unto Death), I'd like to avoid the Suffer not the Alien to Live (Orks) so as not to make the chapter a "Crimson Fists clone" rules-wise... So I thought about using a trait coming from their parent chapter, and, mixing that idea with the "knight in shiny armour" theme that the name "Paladin" suggests, I thought I'd make them a little more CC oriented than our usual chapter, but I still hesitate between "Take the Fight to them" and "Trust your Battle Brothers" to represent that aspect... I have nevertheless started to write the organization/Combat Doctrine part of the IA with that idea in mind... Here's what I end up with: Organization/Combat Doctrine: The Paladins of Dorn closely follow the doctrine of the Codex Astartes. Their only noticeable divergence being their preference for close quarter fighting. This is probably due to the fact that, when the chapter was still young, the Marines were trained by a few selected squad of their parent chapter, the Soul Drinkers, who are known to favor expeditive methods. Like their parent chapter, the Paladins are adept at boarding actions and often use Drop Pod deployment when they have to fight on a planet. The Paladins have a peculiar way to choose their Chapter Master, loosely based on the Imperial Fists "Honor Duels" tradition. When the Chapter Master dies, the whole chapter is regrouped in the Fortress Monastery and the candidates are selected by acclamation, the brothers shouting the name of their favorite candidate. The candidates (only a handful most of the time) are then locked together, without their armour and armed only with a knife, in the Chapel of Dorn and must either agree on one of them to become the Master or fight until one is recognized as the winner by all the other candidates (these fights, with such "harmless" weapons as knifes, are rarely deadly). The "closed doors" nature of the debate/fight ensuring that no candidate looses face. There were only one occasion in the chapter's history were no fights occured during the conclave. While this method ensures a complete loyalty of the other candidates to the elected Master, it also sometimes puts someone at the head of the Chapter which shouldn't have been, not being level-headed enough to fulfill his duty correctly. In the cases (it happened a number of times throughout the chapter's history) where the chapter can't be withdrawn from its current duties to perform the ritual of succession, such as during campaigns, the Master of the Recclusiam acts as stand in. ===== C&C? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/84965-ia-paladins-of-dorn/#findComment-982890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted April 16, 2006 Share Posted April 16, 2006 On with Soul Drinkers.... The Soul Drinkers are not 2nd Founding, that was created by Ben Counter to make his book seem cooler. And I know the counter arguement is that they where struck for all records, but why weren't the Traitor Legions stuck from the records? Plus we know that two Legions we're removed from history, so why doesn't it say that in the IF 2nd Founders. The Soul Drinkers where around at the time of the Age of Apostasy (as they where on Terra) so it's not like they didn't have some history to them. But, enough of that. I don't think a chapter would be investigated just for having the same gene-seed as a traitorous chapter, as I think they will still see themselves as Dorn successors. How I see gene-seed storage is big vaults with "Rogal Dorn" or "Lion El Johnson" on the front. Every gene-seed is checked for mutation, then stored in the correct vault. Imperial Fist and Crimson Fists become mixed, all of the Ultramarine gene-seeds become mixed. Now, if the chapter had extensive links to the Soul Drinkers, and had a very strong bond with them, then they might be investigated especially if it was a father-son relationship. Going on the basis of putting foundings equally between known foundings, the 15th would be around the mid to late M34. Ferrata Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/84965-ia-paladins-of-dorn/#findComment-985278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Trickster Posted April 17, 2006 Author Share Posted April 17, 2006 The Soul Drinkers are not 2nd Founding, that was created by Ben Counter to make his book seem cooler.Wether or not they are 2nd founding isn't important for my IA anyway... :) I don't think a chapter would be investigated just for having the same gene-seed as a traitorous chapter, as I think they will still see themselves as Dorn successors. How I see gene-seed storage is big vaults with "Rogal Dorn" or "Lion El Johnson" on the front. Every gene-seed is checked for mutation, then stored in the correct vault. Imperial Fist and Crimson Fists become mixed, all of the Ultramarine gene-seeds become mixed.Well, my view, which is somehow supported by all the fluff that insists on the very bureaucratic, paper-pushing nature of the Imperium's institutions, is quite different... Wether they keep the geneseeds in big vault or not, I rather see each geneseed sample labelled with a lot of details (Primarch, chapter, date of "extraction", even perhaps information on the marine it was extracted from, and countless other data --most of it useless), minor Imperial servants having for one and only task during their whole life to keep the geneseed records "accurate". Moreover, I never said the Paladins don't see themselves as Dorn successors (I'll make that even clearer when I'll write the "Beliefs" section of the IA)... But I don't see any reason why knowing that they have been created using Soul Drinkers geneseed would be incompatible with that belief... Now, if the chapter had extensive links to the Soul Drinkers, and had a very strong bond with them, then they might be investigated especially if it was a father-son relationship.As you've probably noticed if you've read the "Combat Doctrine/organization" section I've posted, I have started to make the bounds between the 2 chapters a little more than a "genetic" one... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/84965-ia-paladins-of-dorn/#findComment-985718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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