A few questions dealing with Chapters.

[Darrell]

Now, I posted a DIY army a while back, but I have been doing a bit of work on the fluff to streamline it and make it more interesting, unique, and flavorful. However, there are a few questions I was curious about, and since the B&C was down, I really didn't have another place to turn. Since everyone seems to be bringing up their old DIYs, I thought I might as well try to bring mine back out.

 

So, here are a few issues I would like answered before I post my new fluff:

 

1) When a Chapter is formed, another Chapter is generally taken to act as a leadership role and training role for the new Marines until they can get on their feet. How are the trainers chosen? Is it a matter of convenience of distance? If the geneseed of the Chapter is known, would the source of the seed be the most likely candidate? What if the source of the geneseed and the trainers of the Chapter form opposites on the spectrum? Like, say, a Blood Angels successor trained by a Dark Angels successor? The geneseed says RUN UP AND TEAR THEIR THROATS OUT! The training says stay back and use firepower. I know training is usually more important and dominant in the new Chapter's traits, but how much more important is it than geneseed? Blood Angels is a pretty strong and unique example, but hopefully you know where I'm going.

 

2) Is it more common practice for the training Chapter to remain with the fledgling Chapter after they get off their feet, or do they return to their original Chapter?

 

3) Does the training of the new Chapter strictly deal with military matters, or does it carry other impacts as well? Such as cultural beliefs, religious beliefs (Such as whether to venerate the Machine God, Emperor, or Primarch more than the others), et cetera.

 

4) Some of you may remember that I was going for a White Scars/Salamanders feel. I am still going this route, although the inspiration is definitely leaning more towards White Scars now, though the presence of fire weaponry is there (Not to the extent of Cleanse&Purify, however), and I'd still like to have the "good guy" feel the Salamanders have. I've always been a sucker for playing the good guy. My problem is, how do I go about achieving this? My choices are:

 

1) White Scars geneseed, White Scars trainers. This, to me, seems the most likely way to get the result of my Chapter, except for the more humanitarian outlook. The White Scars are bloodthirsty savages, although I suppose their stand on human life has never been defined (Do they consider them expendable like the Marines Malevolent? Do they sort of lose it sometimes and murder indiscriminately, like the Flesh Tearers? There is mention of a 'Red Highway Massacre' in the IA, but I have not been able to find out the details of that incident), they don't strike me as being the humanitarians that the Salamanders are. It's a possibility the new Chapter could develop the trait on their own. Would it be possible to be humanitarian to the extent of being "nice" to the regular citizens of the Imperium, but having a tendency to get very bloody and nasty when fighting the enemy?

 

2) White Scars geneseed, trained by Salamanders. This would perhaps strike a balance (Assuming the White Scars' geneseed is tainted by the tempers of the steppes people), but my Chapter is primarily mounted on bikes, and makes a lot of use of assault squads and speeders. These are not the Salamanders' strong point by any means, so it would seem odd that after being trained by a slow-moving, determined, stern Chapter preferring short-ranged fire-based weaponry...then they end up being White Scars.

 

3) Salamanders geneseed, White Scars trainers. This would also perhaps strike a balance (As the bloodfury would be trained, not a genetic flaw), but there are no known Salamanders successors. This means I am going to have to go the "unknown geneseed source" route, and I'd rather avoid that. That's way too popular, and I'd actually like to have a Chapter that knows its heritage and is damned proud of it, thank you very much.

 

4) Ultramarines geneseed, White Scars trainers. This just occurred to me, and might be the best way to go about doing my Chapter instead. The Ultramarines are pretty humanitarian, aren't they? I mean, they don't just rule a planet, they rule a whole system! Not to mention the people in that system are better off than those living in any other. Still, it would seem wrong to revere Roboute Guillman as your Primarch, but you're not a Codex Chapter by any means. So that, too, carries problems.

 

The choice, I suppose, comes down to the lessers of the four evils. All four have pretty strong drawbacks, so it's down to which would hurt the fluff the least.

 

Any help you guys (We all know girl gamers are just a lie perpetrated by the government) can offer me would be very appreciated. Once I get these little problems straightened, I can fill the blanks in my fluff then post up what I have for your reading pleasure.

[Aurelius Rex]

GW has been vague on the mechanics of chapter creation, but the Chapter Creation stickythread has a post that gives a theory on this which is as good an extrapolation as any. Linky...

 

To me, it would make sense that the chapter who's geneseed was selected for the creation of the new chapter would also be the one who was given the honour of training the fledgeling chapter, or at the very least it would be one from the same genestock. I can't think of a reason why they would intentionally select the ultramarines (or a successor) to mentor a whitescars geneseed chapter... Honour is very big in the Astartes and I can see it as an insult that the Whitescars were not seen as good enough to train their own flesh and blood.

 

Also, if you do go with the idea that the training cadre becomes the Chapter's first master and senior officers and doesn't ever return to it's parent chapter then you have the problem of two geneseeds mixed into the apothecary chapter genebank.

 

So I can't see that it would be done intentionally, but if you have a really good reason to do so that can't be done another way, and can come up with a convincing enough rationale that doesn't come over as it was done on a whim, then go for it. :huh:

 

Personally I would stick with White Scars geneseed, Whitescars (or successors) trainers. There are plenty of ways to make them different from the parent chapter (environment, history, quirks and preferences of the training mentors) and this is perfectly acceptable. If you made a carbon copy of the Scars then why bother doing a DIY... just make a White scars army and be done with it. :D

[Darrell]

That's what it seemed like to me as well. If it was known what geneseed the Chapter was made from, then the geneseed source (Or a successor) would be given "first dibs" to train them. To me, it would seem the father Chapter would be insulted that its geneseed was tainted by the lesser training Chapter.

 

Also, I didn't want the training Chapter to form the new leadership role of the new Chapter once it was on its feet. However, I have read several DIY IA articles stating it happened, so I wanted to know which was more the norm. It would seem more likely the training Chapter would be eager to see the fledgling Chapter stand on its own two feet, and morale wise it would be better for the new Chapter to be led by its own men rather than those of another Chapter. Not to mention, the trainers would (in most cases) undoubtedly prefer to go home and be with their true Battle Brothers.

[Commissar Molotov]

It would likely be the case that a training chapter would have a great cultural impact on the training chapter insofar as religious beliefs. But a millennia-old chapter can still change over the years. Whilst the formative years are important, there are other influences that will impact upon the chapter.

 

Part of this is the homeworld that the marines recruit from. The White Scars are blood-thirsty tribal marines. Funny, because they recruit from Bloodthirsty tribesmen. :D The Ultramarines recruit from mainly civilised planets with strong honour codes. Obviously there are some exceptions to this. The Blood Angels recruit from feral savages and they're artisans and deep thinkers.

 

With regards to 'nice' marines. The Salamanders care for the people of Nocturne. They are the people of Nocturne. They're still genetically-enhanced monsters capable of spitting acid, of crushing a man's head in his hands and surviving mortal injuries. They still despise heretics and would rip them limb-from-limb at the first opportunity. Any chapter would do the same. 'Nice' is relative. I certainly wouldn't want to meet a Salamander in a dark alleyway.

 

With regards to Salamanders successors - as I seem to be repeating myself ad nauseum recently - no official successors doesn't mean NO successors. The Black Dragons and the Storm Giants are both suggested to be Salamanders successors. The Salamanders simply didn't have any second-founding successors. From the third all the way to the twenty-sixth they've been eminently capable of contributing.

 

And please, please, please stop connecting fire to the Salamanders. You can have fire without needing Salamanders training or gene-seed anywhere near. Space-Marines aren't that two-dimensional.

[Spinsane]

3) Salamanders geneseed, White Scars trainers. This would also perhaps strike a balance (As the bloodfury would be trained, not a genetic flaw), but there are no known Salamanders successors. This means I am going to have to go the "unknown geneseed source" route, and I'd rather avoid that. That's way too popular, and I'd actually like to have a Chapter that knows its heritage and is damned proud of it, thank you very much.

Uh, I think you are wrong here, in that sure enough, there are no known 2nd founding Salamander successors, but nowhere does it say there are no known 3rd and later founding ones... While the Salamanders were still recovering from the Istvaan massacre when the second founding took place, there is nothing that sais their geneseed hasn't ever been used to found new chapters since. Actually, the only primarchs whose seeds have been mentioned as never been used to create a new chapter, except during the Cursed ( and perhaps Dark ) founding, are Sanguinius and Leman Russ...

 

4) Ultramarines geneseed, White Scars trainers. This just occurred to me, and might be the best way to go about doing my Chapter instead. The Ultramarines are pretty humanitarian, aren't they? I mean, they don't just rule a planet, they rule a whole system! Not to mention the people in that system are better off than those living in any other. Still, it would seem wrong to revere Roboute Guillman as your Primarch, but you're not a Codex Chapter by any means. So that, too, carries problems.

An alternative here would be to simply field the 6th or 7th Assault reserve company of a codex chapter, which could thus explain the extra bikes... Your chapter would probably be not as divergent and you'd have to adapt the fluff, but it still is a possibility...

[Commissar Molotov]

Actually, the only primarchs whose seeds have been mentioned as never been used to create a new chapter, except during the Cursed ( and perhaps Dark ) founding, are Sanguinius and Leman Russ...

 

So the Angels Encarmine, Angels Sanguine, Angels Vermilion, Blood Drinkers, Flesh Tearers and Lamenters (amongst others) are not Blood Angels successors? ^_^

 

You are correct though that there are no official Space Wolves successors other than the Wolf Brothers.

[Darrell]

I know that 'nice' Marines aren't really 'nice', hence why I use quotations. When I say 'nice', I mean that they see themselves as servants of Mankind, and don't consider Imperial lives to be something you can disregard. The Marines Malevolent is not the kind of thing I want, you know? Salamanders are still mean, nasty, superhuman killing machines, I'm well aware of that, and I think it's awesome. And when fighting the enemies of Mankind, I'm sure they're capable of doing some nasty things...but I want those nasty things to be limited to the enemies of Man, and not Man itself. The Flesh Tearers tore into city militia in the Third War for Armageddon and slaughtered a lot of innocent people. The Marines Malevolent used artillery to bombard a refugee camp to kill Orks hiding inside. Those kinds of things I'd rather stay away from, although engaging in a bloody massacre of a traitor Planetary Defense Force would be perfectly fine for me. I hope I'm not being too confusing in my wording, as I'm trying to be as clear as I can.

 

Also, I know fire is not specific to Salamanders. I know it's not a trait which would be inherited, it's a situation of environment and not genetics. It will be the same thing for my Chapter, being on a volcanic death world means a lot of exposure to fire, and it only takes seeing a few volcanoes exploding to show you how deadly fire can be, and who wouldn't want to use that kind of power to smite their enemies? Plus there's the age-old imagery of flames being used for purification, et cetera.

 

While I know that there are no official successors to the Salamanders, and that does not necessarily mean that there are no successors period, I try to follow official precedent as much as I can, and therefore keep my fluff as grounded as I can which increases the chances of people accepting it. In terms of being a Sallies successor, it would generally mean I would have to resort to saying the Chapter is unaware of where the seed comes from, but that it actually comes from the Salamanders. Since there are a whole lot of Chapters running around with mysterious pasts, I do not want to go that route. I am going to make sure every piece of my history is, to the best of my ability, explained in detail and justified with good reason. No lost in the warp, no manipulation of gene seed, no mysterious expulsion of records, no unknown geneseed. I don't know much about Warhammer 40K fluff, but I want this to be as out in the open as a Space Marine Chapter's history can be.

 

I want my Chapter to be unique and interesting, and I'd rather not pass up the chance to be unique and interesting by skipping a lot of information by having the Chapter's records lost in the annals of time, or the Chapter itself lost in the gibbering Warp.

[Commissar Molotov]

While I know that there are no official successors to the Salamanders, and that does not necessarily mean that there are no successors period, I try to follow official precedent as much as I can, and therefore keep my fluff as grounded as I can which increases the chances of people accepting it. In terms of being a Sallies successor, it would generally mean I would have to resort to saying the Chapter is unaware of where the seed comes from, but that it actually comes from the Salamanders.

 

This is what I'm trying to say to you. You don't have to say that they don't know where their gene-seed comes from. 'No official successors of the Salamanders' is different to me saying 'There are no successors to the Space Wolves'. You can't get away with creating a Space Wolves successor without fluff trickery. You CAN say you've got a Salamanders successor. 'No official Salamanders successors' means 'GW hasn't bothered to create any', not 'GW has said that none have been created'.

 

Make a Salamanders successor, and be proud of them. Few people do.

[Spinsane]

Actually, the only primarchs whose seeds have been mentioned as never been used to create a new chapter, except during the Cursed ( and perhaps Dark ) founding, are Sanguinius and Leman Russ...

 

So the Angels Encarmine, Angels Sanguine, Angels Vermilion, Blood Drinkers, Flesh Tearers and Lamenters (amongst others) are not Blood Angels successors? ^_^

 

You are correct though that there are no official Space Wolves successors other than the Wolf Brothers.

 

Ahem, I am correct :blink:

 

I said their geneseed were never used to create new chapters, because those that exist were all created when their legions were torn asunder following the Heresy... All the BA successors ( except the Lamenters ) and the sole SW successor are 2nd founding chapters, which were not 'created' per see using their geneseed, but rather using existing marines taken from the legion...

[Commissar Molotov]

This from Codex: Blood Angels, Third Edition, Page 14:

 

'The Blood Angels Chapter was originally part of a much larger Legion during the Second Founding. Just as it itself is an offshoot of an older institution, so too has Blood Angels gene-seed been used to create several Successor Chapters.

 

These Successor Chapters were created before discovery of the Blood Angels' flaw. The most widely known are shown on this page, but doubtless there are many others in dark and far-flung corners of the galaxy, each trying to battle the legacy that is the Red Thirst.'

[Darrell]

I suppose you are right, though it still feels odd saying they are definite Salamander successors while there are no GW Chapters as such.

 

Still, the idea of taking the Salamanders geneseed and using it to make a Chapter that is almost nothing like the Salamanders does intrigue me. The calm, stern, down-to-earth Salamanders giving birth to a chapter of fast-riding warriors on bikes, speeders, and jump packs is an interesting idea. Sort of like being the over-excited younger brother to the older, more adult big brother.

 

I'll have to think about it for a little while.

[Spinsane]

These Successor Chapters were created before discovery of the Blood Angels' flaw. The most widely known are shown on this page, but doubtless there are many others in dark and far-flung corners of the galaxy, each trying to battle the legacy that is the Red Thirst.'[/i]

 

Okay, I stand corrected, and think I should now hang myself in shame ^_^

 

Oh and, btw Darell, sry for having somewhat hijacked your tread :blink:

[Tubal]

This means I am going to have to go the "unknown geneseed source" route, and I'd rather avoid that.

At the time of their founding the geneseed is always known, they don't just find some under a table and use that to found a chapter :wacko:

Some chapters may have forgotten their parent chapter (or were never told by the mechanicus or inquisition :unsure:) but if they remember who trained them it's pretty likely that they remember their geneseed source as well.

[the_raptor]

This means I am going to have to go the "unknown geneseed source" route, and I'd rather avoid that.

At the time of their founding the geneseed is always known, they don't just find some under a table and use that to found a chapter :unsure:

 

This is the Adeptus Mechanicus we are talking about. Imagine the hilarity when a servitor sticks an ultramarine label on a canister of Blood Angels geneseed.