Thoughts on Marine creation

[refuse]

Ok, reading some stuff here in the LA, and reviewing the Geneseed thread has got me thinking, and I wanted some feedback/ideas/perceptions on my thoughts.

 

Please feel free to give feedback/expand/tell me I worship Slaanesh.

 

Making a Marine/Chapter.

Using this as a reference: AR's description of creating a chapter.

 

Adding/expanding/reviewing the following

 

2. The Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars selects geneseed from the tithed stocks, say from the Ultramarines / Roboute Guilliman gene-line, although as there are only nine First Founding Chapters out of the thousand possible, it is most likely that the geneseed selected will actually be from a successor Chapter.

 

3. The Adeptus Mechanicus cultures some more geneseed from the original sample selected using mindwiped subjects floating in big glassteel tanks. They would also supply some equipment (Rhinos, ships, armour) to get them started, with the rest expected to be produced by the new Chapter's Forges, or requisitioned like every other Chapter does.

Now for geneseeding (putting it in a marine) there is allot more to it then just implanting the geneseed. There is conditioning the body, selecting the proper candidates, psycho conditioning (conditioning the mind), mind wiping and re-imprinting if needed and other steps.

 

We have some information about this in the IA articles on making a marine.

All possess the carapace implant (phase 19). It is this implant which marks a Space Marine for what he is, irrespective of other implants, training or psycho-surgery.

 

 

So what is selected when making a marine chapter?

 

Would the processes need to make a marine go along with the geneseed? Such processes could be hormonal, psycho-surgery, memory implantation, psychological training. Could the world's population limit the choice of parent geneseed? What about access to the chemicals needed? What if the Space Wolves kept the secret of the hormones used to themselves? Could this be the limiting factor in using the Space Wolf geneseed? The Space Wolves may not even know this.

 

We know that the Blood Angel's transference of Primach DNA is what brought about the Blood Rage (taking it from the dead Primach). When this is removed from later chapters, would that mean the blood rage leaves the subsequent chapter?

 

What if mixing the proceedures, hormones, psycho conditioning with the geneseed was the cause of the cursed founding? If they used Space Wolf hormone treatment with Salamander geneseed, the byproduct could be a failure. What if the psycho conditioning of the Imperial Fists failed to stimulate, or over stimulated the geneseed of the Ultramarines?

 

What would be the outcome of the "degradation" of the process to a chapter? Could this be the cause of later falling to Heresy? What if the loss of the "morality/Praise the Emperor" psycho-conditioning routine lead to the chapter not being as loyal? What if the use of Hormone 123xxx (Originally used by the Thousand Sons), and used now and again for later chapters, causes the large number of psykers in Marines?)

 

Failure of the geneseed in many cases, may be the underlying issues with misunderstood methodology, not geneseed.

 

So this leads to variations on the "geneseed" discussion. What about procedure. We see the loss of one organ can have an effect on the later generations of marines. What about the loss of one procedure. Or the psycho-condition change, or. . .

 

If you look at the phases of implantation, and the purpose of the organs, you can see what impact changes on the performance and operation of the organ could have.

 

One example:

Phase 6 - Catalepsean Node.

Imagine miss-psycho conditioning of this. Where half the brain is put deep into REM sleep while the other half is awake. "Daemons" or visions may plague the marines while on extended patrols. Perhaps waking visions of Saints proves to the Marines they are blessed by the Emperor. Latent psycho conditioned "memories" of their previous past may lead the chapter to be "question" for the meaning of these visions.

 

Another example:

Phase 8 - Omophagea.

What if this organ is "hyper sensitized" during the process. The marines may have flashbacks, or "visions" based on the food they are eating. Or it may be when they take a deep breath, they gain a sense of the people around them (absorbing the sweat in the air). Perhaps they are overly drawn to "flesh" eating to gain insight. Or perhaps they eat the dead, their dead, to pass along wisdom from veteran to initiate. What if they cut off pieces of their bodies when they "report" in after long missions?

 

When designing marines and thinking of justifications/ideas for their home world and chapter organization, the processes of implanting geneseed may be as important as the geneseed they have.

 

 

edited for spelling

[Race Bannon]

Holy damn ... in my estimation, the implications of this intro can be quite staggering. :o

 

If I may be so humble to throw some thoughts around ...

 

First off, I was given the impression from this board that there is a certain order to the Chapter creation process (at least in recent times): declaration, seed selection, implatation, organization/training.

 

But you raise some VERY interesting questions: at what point DOES the training process occur with the new marines? And where? The IA article suggests the AD provides everything ... or the new Chapter has to ask for it. :P

 

Is it possible that a miminum number of marines are implanted with the seed, say 200, then handed over to the parent chapter for "basic training". After a period of time (as new-er marines are being recruited), the parent chapter has "volunteers" leave the chapter along with these new marines to start traditions, routines, and develop a sense of "self". At this point the new Chapter really becomes autonomous.

 

Again ... ;)

 

Could the world's population limit the choice of parent geneseed?

 

Is there an example when this was a choice?

 

Upon consideration: how IS parent geneseed chosen anyway? Wouldn't it make sense to persistently use the most stable stock? Or are geneseeds like pewter molds where the sharp edges slowly get rounded or dull :lol:

---

In other words, are you suggesting that problems with some Chapters are less a genetic flaw and more of a failure in the conditioning/training of the Chapter that persists into eventual degredation?

[Grimdarkness]

I've often wondred where the frist thousand or so marines come from when a chapter is founding and then sent out on crusade to find a homeworld do the Ad mech have marines in stais that can be tawed and used a mold for a new chapter or dose the ad mech have a supply of feral children on hand at all times?

[refuse]

In other words, are you suggesting that problems with some Chapters are less a genetic flaw and more of a failure in the conditioning/training of the Chapter that persists into eventual degredation?

partially.

 

Based on the geneseed thread, we seem to agree that geneseed does not make a marine part of the chapter.

So it is training and other things that do.

 

Depending on the "training", or possibly the process of making a marine, the chapter gains shape.

 

What I was trying to do above is two fold.

 

1) give reasons to have variations of marine behavior and story hooks for DIYs that have some possible tie in with reality.

 

And ideas to use to give them some meat in the story (instead of "My marines are blood thirsty"), there could be:

Due to a psycho-conditioning prgoram during the Catalepsean Node implantation, the marines fall into a "waking dream" state during combat. This state identifies all non-chapter marines as "daemons" to be destroyed. The Marines are ruthless in their pursuit of these daemons. To this end, they normally do not deploy with allies.

 

This allows non-geneseed, cliche reasons to be given for odd behaviors.

 

Another example:

Upon investigation by the =][=, it was found that the abnormal number of psychers was due to local production of the hormones used during the Catalepsean Node implantation. This hormone activated latent psychic powers within marginal psychers and the bonding process of the Catalepsean Node heightened this abnormality. It was shown that the 5% death rate during the Catalepsean Node implamentation was due to certain candiates bodies rejecting the hormones. When the Adeptus Mechanicus tested "control" subjects, the same number of candidates died during this phase. Though aproximately the same number of candiates suffered psychotic episodes. This variation was attributed to the lack of the Catalepsean implantation during the period of treatment. The majority of subject showed no variation, as per the same percentages of marine candiates. All control subjects were destroyed at the end of the experiment.

 

 

Things like that, to get the history a bit more varied without resorting to alternate geneseed, or mixed geneseed or non-geneseed behavior. Could also account for variations in the subsequent chapters. Why have an assault oriented Salamander army? Corruption of the implantation of Salamander geneseed!

[refuse]

I've often wondred where the frist thousand or so marines come from when a chapter is founding and then sent out on crusade to find a homeworld do the Ad mech have marines in stais that can be tawed and used a mold for a new chapter or dose the ad mech have a supply of feral children on hand at all times?

 

Possibly.

Possibly the round up 10,000 and start the process. Until they get a stable set of geneseed.

[Grimdarkness]

What or how about a ultra successor with blood angels traits the whole berserk fury blood lust or a white scar successor with a sallies humane feel a Imp fist chapter with a terrible secret ala the dark angel's do they work or are DIY stuck in the mold G.W's made.. of there gene father

[Aurelius Rex]

From a critical standpoint I would say that a chapter with too many geneseed influences would be woefully lacking a coherent theme.

 

When you mix up Ultramarines blue, Blood Angels red, sallies green, Imp Fist yellow, Scars white and ravenguard black you end up with a murky and characterless brown sludge. ^_^

 

But straying away from strained acrylic based painting analogies, when you create a successor chapter it is perfectly acceptable to move them slightly out of the shadow of their progenitor / parent chapter, as long as it is believably explained by such things as history, environment, or as REFUSE has suggested here minor tweaks or flaws in the implantation process.

 

To address the examples you mentioned, it would risk being too simplistic to simply transpose major themes characteristic to one geneseed type straight onto another geneseed type. While it might work, something more original and less obvious than straight character transplanting would probably turn out better. ;)

[Rymeer]

Holy Emperor... a reasonable thread on chapters. I am impressed.

 

All this goes a long ways to solidifying my ideas and written background for my own DIY chapter.

 

Thanks,

 

Rymeer

[refuse]

From a critical standpoint I would say that a chapter with too many geneseed influences would be woefully lacking a coherent theme.

 

When you mix up Ultramarines blue, Blood Angels red, sallies green, Imp Fist yellow, Scars white and ravenguard black you end up with a murky and characterless brown sludge. :P

 

But straying away from strained acrylic based painting analogies, when you create a successor chapter it is perfectly acceptable to move them slightly out of the shadow of their progenitor / parent chapter, as long as it is believably explained by such things as history, environment, or as REFUSE has suggested here minor tweaks or flaws in the implantation process.

 

To address the examples you mentioned, it would risk being too simplistic to simply transpose major themes characteristic to one geneseed type straight onto another geneseed type. While it might work, something more original and less obvious than straight character transplanting would probably turn out better. <_<

As AR says,

A key may be the "think about what you want and why you want it" method of reviewing your chapter.

i.e. try to decide why your army needs to be IF with Blood Angel tendencies. What is the reason for your fluff? If you can justify it (why you need it), then think how it happened. Again if you can't come up with a justification (for why) re-evaluate why you need it.

 

 

then try to figure out why, the IF would have blood thirst, why Ultras would act Sally. . . . . .

[Grimdarkness]

I was re reading my I.A's and the night lords stuck in my head how much did the upbringing and teaching's of the primarch influence there legion's. As an example did the Terran Battle brother's of the night lord's freely accept the terror tactics night hunter proposed. Heck the warrior lodges Horus adopted into his legion where they viewed as suspect by his troops or even the chaplains for a start or was it a do as i say no matter what you think.

 

Nature over nurture or a combo of the two or does the feel of a chapter have more to do with the primarch beliefs then his gene seed or something in there history (dorn for example the imp fists are more like there father then the crimson fists or the templars who are more like siggy then dorn.)

[Zhivago]

Phase 8 - Omophagea.

What if this organ is "hyper sensitized" during the process. The marines may have flashbacks, or "visions" based on the food they are eating. Or it may be when they take a deep breath, they gain a sense of the people around them (absorbing the sweat in the air). Perhaps they are overly drawn to "flesh" eating to gain insight. Or perhaps they eat the dead, their dead, to pass along wisdom from veteran to initiate. What if they cut off pieces of their bodies when they "report" in after long missions?

 

I thought it required eating specific part of the body ?

 

Or are marines so sci-fi that they can re-tract memories from example muscle tissue, where no information (except genetic) is stored. I thought they had to eat the brains to 'feel' the prey. In same way they'd have to eat their own brains... (to raport) and then it starts to sound lik a bad zombie movie.

 

But on the point itself, suggested errors in creation might cause oddities in said cahpter, surely.

[Grand Master Belial]

So what is selected when making a marine chapter?

Well to start there is Location, Mission, and whatever else could force the High Lords to declare another Founding of Marine chapters. As foundings create hundreds of chapters, they would be pulling geneseed stocks from quite a number of existing chapters. It can be that they also request the services of the chapters to help train them.

 

Would the processes need to make a marine go along with the geneseed? Such processes could be hormonal, psycho-surgery, memory implantation, psychological training. Could the world's population limit the choice of parent geneseed? What about access to the chemicals needed? What if the Space Wolves kept the secret of the hormones used to themselves? Could this be the limiting factor in using the Space Wolf geneseed? The Space Wolves may not even know this.

Let's see, Medical practises would be the same. It would need to in the ritual laden Imperium. The only populations that apparently can't take the Space Marine geneseed are the tolerated mutant humans. No Ogryns or Squats have been inducted into a Space Marine Chapter and I guess worlds that fall under a matriarchal society would not bode well for a marine chapter to be founded there. With the number of chapters of the other lineages so large. THe Ad Mech should be able to get any chemicals from any one of them. The Wolves' flaw is generally known so that is grounds to not use it (and fluff dictated that it was only used once to diastrous effect and NEVER used again). The Blood Angels' rage should be known as well.

 

Going over the next question, I do believe there should be some kind of gene-therapy to allow the marine's body to be more receptive to the organ implants. The gene-therapy should begin altering the host body's chemistry to be similar to the Primarchs. With the associated suppressents and stimulents, they can keep the progression of the marine's growth in-line. The loss of the supplies may have some rather disatrous consequences for a fledgling chapter.

 

We know that the Blood Angel's transference of Primach DNA is what brought about the Blood Rage (taking it from the dead Primach). When this is removed from later chapters, would that mean the blood rage leaves the subsequent chapter?

Geneseed and DNA appear to be irrevitably linked. The DNA of the Primarch will forever reside in part in the gene-seed of it's offering. Though I do believe that any minor mutation may be able to begin affecting the gene-seed to create other flaws though nothing on the order of the Cursed founding.

 

What if mixing the proceedures, hormones, psycho conditioning with the geneseed was the cause of the cursed founding? If they used Space Wolf hormone treatment with Salamander geneseed, the byproduct could be a failure. What if the psycho conditioning of the Imperial Fists failed to stimulate, or over stimulated the geneseed of the Ultramarines?

I do believe this was the cause of the Cursed Founding. Though the Dark Founding is a whole other matter.

 

What would be the outcome of the "degradation" of the process to a chapter? Could this be the cause of later falling to Heresy? What if the loss of the "morality/Praise the Emperor" psycho-conditioning routine lead to the chapter not being as loyal? What if the use of Hormone 123xxx (Originally used by the Thousand Sons), and used now and again for later chapters, causes the large number of psykers in Marines?)

Hmmm... :P Let me stew on this for a while.

[the_raptor]

Phase 8 - Omophagea.

What if this organ is "hyper sensitized" during the process. The marines may have flashbacks, or "visions" based on the food they are eating. Or it may be when they take a deep breath, they gain a sense of the people around them (absorbing the sweat in the air). Perhaps they are overly drawn to "flesh" eating to gain insight. Or perhaps they eat the dead, their dead, to pass along wisdom from veteran to initiate. What if they cut off pieces of their bodies when they "report" in after long missions?

 

I thought it required eating specific part of the body ?

 

Or are marines so sci-fi that they can re-tract memories from example muscle tissue, where no information (except genetic) is stored. I thought they had to eat the brains to 'feel' the prey. In same way they'd have to eat their own brains... (to raport) and then it starts to sound lik a bad zombie movie.

 

But on the point itself, suggested errors in creation might cause oddities in said cahpter, surely.

 

In 2nd ed fluff marines could gain vague memories by eating flesh (IIRC in _Space Marine_ the recruits eat horse flesh and have memories of the horses life on the plains), but can gain sophisticated technical knowledge by consuming brain tissue (In _Space Marine_ a marine squad eats the brains of some rebel titan crew to learn how to pilot the titan).

[refuse]

We know that the Blood Angel's transference of Primach DNA is what brought about the Blood Rage (taking it from the dead Primach). When this is removed from later chapters, would that mean the blood rage leaves the subsequent chapter?

Geneseed and DNA appear to be irrevitably linked. The DNA of the Primarch will forever reside in part in the gene-seed of it's offering. Though I do believe that any minor mutation may be able to begin affecting the gene-seed to create other flaws though nothing on the order of the Cursed founding.

 

Here is an interesting thing.

The original legions used an activator (something from the primach) to enable their geneseed. This is was part of a story of why the Blood Angels had the "night mares" as they took some of the primachs blood after he was killed, and the memory was in the blood. Also the Chaplains keep a "shorter" line back to the primarch by drinking the blood of and older one. So they are more pure.

 

We also know that Geneseeding was discovered after the primachs were found (or at least after the DA primach was found).

 

What if Geneseed was geneseed.

 

And it was the activator that started the problem. Perhaps then, the farther away from the Source, the less impact the primarch dna would have.

 

So a short chain of "parents" would make you more connected to the primach then a longer one. Bjorn's Geneseed would probably produce better "true" marines then a later SW. This may be why the Blood Angels live longer, as they maintain a "short" path by using the blood of the primach.

 

This could also be why the Ultras are less "diverse" as they are copies of copies of copies.

 

 

This goes back to my belief about the hierachy of marines.

 

From strongest to weakest:

Primach

DNA marines

geneseed marines (with primach dna)

current marines

 

So the Custodes may be just geneseed marines (lesser removed from the Emperor, then current marines from their primachs).

 

Perhaps "big deviations" are because they choose a "short path" marine (as few generations as possible removed from the Primach activator) or they choose a really old Geneseed from the vaults. This makes the new chapter alot more "volitile" as the geneseed is "fresher".

 

Chapters derived from lesser geneseed become more bland, watered down.

 

No real change in game stats, but varied. A "true" marine would be alot more marine then a legion marine, and they would both be much more then a current marine. The "throwback" or greater descendants may be the cause for Heros.

 

What if the Crusade Era marines were near immortal (look at the 13th company, Bjorn and Chaos). The Blood Angel use of activator (even diluted as it is) gives them a longer life. The more diluted marines live 200+ years.

 

What if your chapter was from a short path geneseed?

What if your chapter was from a long path geneseed?

What if your chapter was from a marine that had lived 3000 years?

What if your chapter was from a "crusade era" geneseed, taken out of the vaults?

 

Perhaps the fear of using fallen legion geneseed is the fear of them falling to chaos, but the longevity and power of the marines created. Perhaps some chapters have been created from "fallen legion" geneseed (crusade era) and had 3000+ year life spans. This would threaten the Imperium, as these marines may all be supermen compared to current marines.

 

This add alot to my "Atlas Shrugged" theory of the Imperium. They want Marines, but marines they can beat if they need to. To recreate the Crusade Era marines may put the Imperium on shaky footing. What if every Crusade Era Marine as good as 100 regular marines? Sure they can't cover that much terrain and a nuke still kills them, but the longevity, skills and power of the marine may threaten or at least scare the High Lords. So weaker (Ultra Marine) geneseed is used mostly, to assure good marines.

 

Is it better to have 10000 good marines instead of 100 Amazing marines? If one marine falls to chaos it is moot, if one of the super marines fall?

 

So is there layers upon layers of issues/possibilities with Geneseed? Can the history/or age of the geneseed present issues, hooks or plans for a chapter? Can the very geneseed they are created from cause fear in the Imperium?

[Race Bannon]

So a short chain of "parents" would make you more connected to the primach then a longer one.

This is starting to sound like a discussion of dominant v. recessive genetic codes ...

 

This could also be why the Ultras are less "diverse" as they are copies of copies of copies.

 

I'm not sure I am agreeing with this because of this statement ...

 

Chapters derived from lesser geneseed become more bland, watered down.

 

I was under the impression that the Gene-seed (or geneseed) cannot be diluted from generation to generation. A copy is an exact duplicate of the original. The only time the original can be altered is if it was altered by the source user (ex. Sanguinius' death altered the original genes).

 

If your arguement is correct then it must happen to all of the geneseeds in stock. So why not use Dark Angel geneseed since it was the first Legion? I say that based on Molotov's post found here. Wouldn't the fist legion be the absolute most perfect to use. Wouldn't the DA seed have been the template for the following legions? Or did the AM make 20 different genes simultaneously?

 

Hmmm. Now I am thinking the AM needs to spread out the dilution process and pull out the reluctantly used seed. :)

[Asklepios Invictus]

A very interesting thread once more REFUSE.

 

I am especially astonished since I have used a similar approach to some points discussed above in the creation of my own Chapter, the Legio Invicta.

I would like to state beforehand that I am an oncologist and thus the explanations I favour are based upon actual scientific knowledge: our friggin' bodies are so complex they have mechanisms even Slaanesh wouldn't think of ! :)

The Legio Invicta is descended from the Imperial Fists, yet retains use of all their implants.

Aesculapia, the Legion's Homeworld was rediscovered only late, prior to the Third Founding. Medical technology on the world was very advanced, a necessity to cure the many diseases caused by the highly radioactive primary system star. When the Legio Invicta was founded, the Apothecaries, adhering to Purity Above All perfected the conditioning and implantation procedures, enabling use of all implants.

 

I would advocate that a variety of factors play a crucial role in the evolution of the Homo sapiens superior.

First of all, I support the thesis that geneseed copied meticulously is stable, i.e. no diluting effect takes place. Such a hypothesis is not needed to explain the described phenomena.

I am especially surprised at the genius of REFUSE as he has postulated actual mechanisms of genetic diversity that are currently being examined by the avantgarde of pharmacogeneticists and molecular biologists.

 

* DNA imprinting: Phenomena as Sanguinius' Curse may be the result of epigenetic modification as the methylation/demethylation of DNA or histone conformation changes (histones are DNA-hugging proteins with epicurean, i.e. auxiliary, functions). Any geneseed copied would have a fixed configuration of gene modulation. In the case of the Blood Angels, the modification of on/off genes may have resulted in a constellation that is not stable. Repair defects or polymorphisms might contribute to the perpetuation of such configurations.

 

* Gene polymorphisms. Different populations contain concordant genes with similar function but functional variation. For example, a specific polymorphism in a gene coding for a toxin-metabolising enzyme might be the cause of higher or lower enzymatic activity and thus in a higher or lower pharmacokinetic.

This might be the case with Space Wolves. Only humans with specific polymorphisms are able to metabolise their therapeutics, resulting in a population bias.

 

* Procedure. In a highly dogmatic Imperium knowledge decays. Systematical errors might occur under given circumstances resulting in ineffective or over-effective treatments. Inadequate hormonal activity of therapeutics might not stimulate implants into maturation or might over-stimulate them. I especially liked the Omophagea example given earlier.

 

* (Psycho)Physiological differences. Humans of Asian heritage have a different arrangement of some cortical functions, some centers for abstract naturalistic analysis being near the Broca centrum for speech for example, resulting in poetry vivid with metaphors and pattern taken from nature. Such differences might alter effects of psychoconditioning.

 

* Loss of homozygosity. Different transcriptional errors in the parent zygote may indeed be responsible for loss of function of gene(s) or even activation of normally dormant genes (like the protooncogene -> oncogene metamorphosis in cancerous transformation). This might again lead to hypo- or hypersensibility.

 

This is only a small list of probable factors including many processes in the chain, but which can already be used to explain many of the described phenomena.

Science is fascinating.

[refuse]

I was under the impression that the Gene-seed (or geneseed) cannot be diluted from generation to generation. A copy is an exact duplicate of the original. The only time the original can be altered is if it was altered by the source user (ex. Sanguinius' death altered the original genes).

If that were true, then all chapters would

 

a) Have shown the issues they had post heresy pre-heresy (Space Wolves).

:) Have all the organs still working (as the organs are created from geneseed).

c) Not have "spontaneous" mutations due to external influences (cursed founding).

 

The marines "effect" their geneseed by carrying it within them. They absorb some of the marines genetic material.

 

I am pretty sure that pre-heresy they want back to as "pure" geneseed as often as they could. Post heresy, they just used anyone (chain gang style) and the marines degenerated (Kil Kil Kil). Post RT time the marines started being more selective (recruiting process) and regained some control.

 

Prior to the Heresy, the Wolfen were a known issue, and organized into the 13th company.

 

Of course as the Crusade lasted what 200 years, the mutations degredation may not have had time to developed.

 

I am especially surprised at the genius of REFUSE as he has postulated actual mechanisms of genetic diversity that are currently being examined by the avantgarde of pharmacogeneticists and molecular biologists.

Yes, yes, I amaze even myself sometimes.

[Grand Master Belial]

If that were true, then all chapters would

 

a) Have shown the issues they had post heresy pre-heresy (Space Wolves).

:P Have all the organs still working (as the organs are created from geneseed).

c) Not have "spontaneous" mutations due to external influences (cursed founding).

 

A - I'm not sure that is accurate. Before the Primarchs were found the Space Marines were created and then after the Primarchs were found a new kind of Marine was created. Many of the pre-discovery marines would not be as closely linked to the Primarchs and wouldn't show the signs.

 

B - One of my ideas was that when the Emperor created the Primarchs is that he intentionally made them different so that they wouldn't show the same weaknesses. However, the process wasn't completed before Chaos swept up the Primarchs. This meant that their differences were directly the result of their raising on their new homeworld. (Russ being raised by wolves, the Lion by who knows what in the Chaos forest) For whatever reason, Dorn's organs were damaged or atrophied to be unusable for the marines.

 

C - I thought the Cursed Founding came about due to over-experimentation of the geneseed. Possibly even combining geneseeds that are no longer compatible like two siblings with different blood types. However, instead of rejection the geneseeds combined in a rather unpleasant way.

 

Yes, yes, I amaze even myself sometimes.

 

Now don't take any perverse pleasure from it. :) (Though being a follower of Slaanesh, I am sure you will)

[refuse]

A - I'm not sure that is accurate. Before the Primarchs were found the Space Marines were created and then after the Primarchs were found a new kind of Marine was created. Many of the pre-discovery marines would not be as closely linked to the Primarchs and wouldn't show the signs.

Exactly.

 

The Pre-Primach Marines are pure.

 

But those created with the Primach Geneseed (and activator) may not show the devolution (though the 13th company did). It may be the activator.

 

In the case of the Space Wolves, the activator may have made them more "wolf" and thus a larger number of "wolfen" and thus the 13th Company. Post Primach, the wolf aspect was less in "just geneseed no activator" marines and thus the grey wolf type problems.

 

So there can be "issues" from using the primach DNA and lesser issues from not using it. And issues from not using it, and lesser issues/no issues from not using it.

 

B - One of my ideas was that when the Emperor created the Primarchs is that he intentionally made them different so that they wouldn't show the same weaknesses. However, the process wasn't completed before Chaos swept up the Primarchs. This meant that their differences were directly the result of their raising on their new homeworld. (Russ being raised by wolves, the Lion by who knows what in the Chaos forest) For whatever reason, Dorn's organs were damaged or atrophied to be unusable for the marines.

 

C - I thought the Cursed Founding came about due to over-experimentation of the geneseed. Possibly even combining geneseeds that are no longer combatable like two siblings with different blood types. However, instead of rejection the geneseeds combined in a rather unpleasant way.

We don't know what or why the cursed founding failed.

Use of Traitor Geneseed? Remanipulation by Chaos? Sabatoge by AM, Chapters, Inquisitors?

 

 

Yes, yes, I amaze even myself sometimes.

 

Now don't take any perverse pleasure from it. :D (Though being a follower of Slaanesh, I am sure you will)

[Asklepios Invictus]

Ah, again very interesting theories. So I think we agree there is no dilution per se but an effect modification based on procedure used.

 

Again, the last thesis by REFUSE is perfectly plausible. There are a number of genetic variations taking place to ensure genetic diversity like the "crossing over". In this particular effect, genes are exchanged by chromosomes during cell division, resulting in genetic diversity.

This might have taken place in non-Primarch geneseed and have alleviated some of the effects or vice versa. Also, depending of what the activator is one can postulate additional mechanisms.

For example inhibitors of topoisomerase II, a gene repair enzyme, can induce cell death in cancer cells.

However, they can also affect healthy cells, inducing DNA damage and cancer ! This terrible side-effect is seen in 3% of cancer patients and is called second malignancy. Imagine now a mitogen, a substance that induces cell division, in the use as activator, which also stimulates selective hyperproliferation of specific tissues in some patients: The Wolfen are born.

 

One could also bring immunology into the game, as Grand-Master Belial has postulated: imagine genetic mismatch which results in autoimmune disease: the body attacks implants and cells bearing foreign genetic material because they are identified as such, the most important mechanism in transplant-failure.

 

I hope I have not tired you with my scientific mumbo-jumbo, I just want to show that modern medicine and science can provide for inspiration for plausible explanations for these phenomena :D

[Race Bannon]

Invictus ... oddly enough I understand the mumbo-jumbo even though I am far from scientifically inclined :jaw:

[refuse]

One could also bring immunology into the game, as Grand-Master Belial has postulated: imagine genetic mismatch which results in autoimmune disease: the body attacks implants and cells bearing foreign genetic material because they are identified as such, the most important mechanism in transplant-failure.

Very interesting.

 

Imagine a chapter (on the edge) where a number of marines bodies "consume" the geneseed.

What if these marines became supermen, the merging of geneseed into their DNA, has in effect recreated the Original marines (pre-geneseed).

The Chapter would then have a number of "immortal" supermen, but as this number grew larger, the stores of geneseed would grow smaller. A self-defeating chapter.

 

"A candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned very brightly..."

 

Or what if the chapter used "bodies" to grow their geneseed. Would the lack of "active" secretions weaken the geneseed? What if the longer they waited to take the geneseed, the better the result? The more "dangerous" the life, the better the geneseed.

 

You can build whole religions/concepts for chapters around the need to aquire/gather geneseed in a specific way. Imagine only those dieing charging into battle can have their geneseed collected, do to a requirement of adrenal secretions (bad spelling I know). Perhaps "fear" makes the geneseeds grow stronger or any other number of things. The chapter would over time do these things out of "religon" with out knowing the real reasons.

[refuse]

As a note:

After looking over Commissar Molotov's thread I found this:

 

Rites of initiation (GW's site)

 

VARIATIONS BETWEEN CHAPTERS

Each organ serves a specific function as outlined above. Although a Chapter's Apothecaries and surgeons are able to perform the necessary implant operations, they do not necessarily understand the exact functioning of each organ. The processes involved are incredibly ancient. Procedures are handed down from generation to generation, becoming increasingly ritualised and misinterpreted. For these reasons, the efficiency of each organ differs from Chapter to Chapter, depending on the condition of that Chapter's gene-seeds and the degree of debasement of its surgical procedures. In some Chapters, mutation of gene-seed, poor surgical procedure, or inadequate post-operative conditioning, has twisted the functioning of implants. For example, the omophagea gene-seed of the Blood Drinkers has mutated so that all Blood Drinkers have an unnatural craving for blood. In other Chapters individual organs are either useless or absent altogether.

 

 

 

As a note,

the Fangs of the space wolves are a post heresy development.

 

[qutoe]For example, the Space Wolves' Phase 17 implant has slightly mutated so that Space Wolves' canine teeth continue to grow throughout their lives, turning them into vicious fangs over several centuries. The length of fangs is a source of Chapter tradition, and is even part of their organisation, hence the veterans of their heavy weapons squads being known as Long Fangs.

 

And about the value of difference:

Some Chapters deliberately foster such creatures, even going so far as to implant deformed zygotes into some initiates. This is very dangerous, and the practice is discouraged by Imperial edict. But old traditions die hard.

 

There are some more interesting sections on page 4

http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/4/

 

At the bottom.

[Commissar Molotov]

REFUSE, this quote might help your musing:

 

The Flesh Tearers dropped the Blood Angels' practice of blood transfusions to new recruits when they split from the Legion after the Heresy, but by this time Sanguinius' pain had already become so bound within the Chapter's geneseed itself that they could not escape the effects of the Black Rage.

 

'Sanguinius' Pain'?

[refuse]

REFUSE, this quote might help your musing:

 

The Flesh Tearers dropped the Blood Angels' practice of blood transfusions to new recruits when they split from the Legion after the Heresy, but by this time Sanguinius' pain had already become so bound within the Chapter's geneseed itself that they could not escape the effects of the Black Rage.

 

'Sanguinius' Pain'?

Sanguinius' pain is his death memories.