The Betrayed

[Knight of the First Legion]

I recently got my hands on volume one and three of the Horus Heresy artbooks and my imagination has really been captured by the fate of the loyalists from the Death Guard, World Eaters and Emperors Children Legions on Isstvan III.

 

This got me thinking about making a force based around the decendents of those men who remained loyal to the Emperor and stood against their Primarchs and brother marines.

 

I know Captain Garro managed to get to Earth with at least one ship (HH V3 + IA Death Guard UK WD 265) and at the point where Volume III of the Horus Heresy artbook leaves them Captain Tarvitz and around one hundred loyal marines from the three legions are still on Isstvan III.

 

So this is what id like to do:

 

A loyalist force of marines from the Death guard, World Eaters and Emperors Children Legions in the 41st Millenium. Obviously these will not be the same marines who fought at Istvaan and got through to Terra, but their decendents. I can imagine that many of the loyalist Legions such as the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard would not have wanted to have anything to do with these men after the Heresy, but a Legion such as my own beloved Dark Angels may have been able to empathise with the remnants of a Legion betrayed by their brothers. ^_^

 

The fluff for the company would therefore be that they have survived from the Heresy by keeping a relatively low profile and with some help along the way from other First Founding Chapters and maybe some of their successors. The company still uses the Gene Seed of their legions and maintains the armour and insignia from before the Heresy. The goal of the company is not unlike the Dark Angels themselves in that they wish to in some small way gain honour and redemption for their legions, mainly by attacking and stopping the plans of their former brothers.

 

I would use the traits system for the company along with some self imposed restrictions on troop types.

 

I think Blessed by the Warriors would be a good trait for the company to represent the fact that there are World Eaters within their ranks and Uphold the honour of the Emperor seems really fluffy for men who gave up everything to remain loyal to him. The disadvantage would be flesh over steel representing the fact that the company doesnt have access to some of the heavier and newer equipment that a normal chapter would.

 

Restrictions on troops types are as follows:

 

No Whirlwinds, Vindicators, Land Raider Crusaders or Razorbacks.

 

No Plasma Cannons, Assault Cannons or Cyclone Missile Launchers.

 

No Librarians.

 

No Scouts? Not sure about this as the company does recruit new marines.

 

No newer suits of armour.

 

Only Heresy era versions of what vehicles and armour the company does have.

 

All the models would be modeled to be of the heresy era so ill be looking for older model Rhinos and Predators and using the Forge World Heresy Era Landraider if I include one in the list.

 

So what do you think? I know it was alot to read and for that im sorry!

 

Also if any fluff masters out their actually know if the marines on Isstvan III actually got of the planet alive this would obviously have an impact on what im planning to do.

 

Cheers!

 

Knight

[Ahmato]

I think this is a brilliant idea ^_^

 

Although, l think you've been a bit harsh on yourself, as far as restrictions go. Surely if they were supported by other chapters, they would recieve something within the ethos of the Chapter in question. For example, the IF would probably hand over a Vindicator, if anything, Or perhaps a Whirlwind.

[Knight of the First Legion]

I'm glad someone else like the idea ^_^

 

Although, l think you've been a bit harsh on yourself, as far as restrictions go. Surely if they were supported by other chapters, they would recieve something within the ethos of the Chapter in question. For example, the IF would probably hand over a Vindicator, if anything, Or perhaps a Whirlwind.

 

Thats quite a nice idea actually! I cant have the Crusader anyway because of 'Flesh Over Steel' but the idea of a Legion/Chapter donating a vehicle to the company as a show of support sounds cool. It mite be good to leave a panel of the armour the colour of the donating Legion/Chapter so yellow for IF red for BA etc etc.

 

It would also be a fluffy way of including newer vehicle patterns such as the new Rhino into the force.

 

I would however like somway to tie the whole force together a way of showing that the World Eater assault squad and the Death Guard tactical squad are on the same side. I was thinking of an army badge or maybe a portion of the armour being black or somthing.

 

If anyone has any ideas or comments/criticisms that would be great!

 

Knight

[Zhivago]

The fluff for the company would therefore be that they have survived from the Heresy by keeping a relatively low profile and with some help along the way from other First Founding Chapters and maybe some of their successors. The company still uses the Gene Seed of their legions and maintains the armour and insignia from before the Heresy. The goal of the company is not unlike the Dark Angels themselves in that they wish to in some small way gain honour and redemption for their legions, mainly by attacking and stopping the plans of their former brothers.

 

This idea has been discussed here few times, try search using 'loyal traitors' or some similiar words.

And what comes to idea itself.

 

1) Your miniatures, your fluff. You can write whatever you want.

 

2) If you want aqcceptance here, people might disagree on few points on that fluff presented above.

 

Now it is possible that parts of traitor legions did not turn traitor. (We actually know that some parts did not)

 

While some did remain loyal, imperium DID not look too kindly on them. They were, after all, members of traitor legions, that plunged imperium in to chaos and war that tore the imperium itself apart.

 

Secondly, most marine chapters know traitor regalia, and would attack force bearing such colours without hesitation. If you are wearing word-bearer armour, it is pointless to claim that you are not traitor. No-one would simply believe you.

 

And I really can't see dark angels being symphatetic to 'loyal' traitors. (my view of course). They, as all other marines hate chaos with abandon. They purged their own chapter to get rid of taint. They would failry surely see the loyal-traitors tainted. And something to be purged.

 

Marines are also quite possesive on vehiacles trusted on them. Vehiacles in the 40th milleniumare not just lumps of metal, but instruments of war and emperors wrath and powered by venerated machine spirits.

Giving away for example a pretator would be pretty same as cutting of right arm voluntarily.

 

 

The earlier post was more.. realistic, as the 'loyal traitors' would need to hide and raid imperial out posts to survive. If there were enough of them and they had suitable equipment, they could propably make new marines, but during the pass of time things would propably break down.

 

 

If you want to paint force using traitor legion colours, you could ty to do pre-heresy force.

Or if you want tragic backround and some sort of lone-wolf tag on your marines, you could make them modern loyal renegades. (ref. Soul Drinkers)

[Brother Djibril]

I think you could get away with having loyalist traitors in their original armor colors if only because almost none of the modern members of the Imperium would remember those armor schemes. The traitor legions have mutated and repainted their armor, so marines will think "Red and brass armor" for the World Eaters rather than "Blue and white armor".

 

Secondly, marines care a lot about what color their armor is. Repainting it would be an incredibly big deal. So I can see them having somewhat hodge-podge armor like the 13th company, but not whole cloth repainting.

[Ghost Of Danterra]

I think IF a legio Company say hadnt turned and stayed loyal the would change there colors to represent the fact they stayed loyal or to show Ummm at loss for words here sorry... :jaw:

But yeah

[Callas]

or to show Ummm

That they had renounced their traitorous brothers?

 

I think this idea has merit, though I fear some of the Fluff-meisters may be getting ready to shoot you down - though personally I say go for it.

[Knight of the First Legion]

Thanks for the replies guys! :jaw:

 

 

Zhivago

 

Secondly, most marine chapters know traitor regalia, and would attack force bearing such colours without hesitation. If you are wearing word-bearer armour, it is pointless to claim that you are not traitor. No-one would simply believe you.

As Brother Djibril points out the Traitor legion changed their armour and legion symbols after the heresy so I dont think the company would have too many problems in that regard, and as I have said they have managed to keep a low profile.

 

And I really can't see dark angels being symphatetic to 'loyal' traitors. (my view of course). They, as all other marines hate chaos with abandon. They purged their own chapter to get rid of taint. They would failry surely see the loyal-traitors tainted. And something to be purged.

 

I understand this is your view though I have to disagree. The loyal Death Guard/ World Eaters/ Emperors Children are exactly the same as the Dark Angels as they were all betrayed by part of their original legion. The only differences I can think of is that everyone knows about the Traitor Legions wheras they dont know about the Dark Angels. And of course the scale of the betrayal.

 

The other difference is Marines are also quite possesive on vehiacles trusted on them. Vehiacles in the 40th milleniumare not just lumps of metal, but instruments of war and emperors wrath and powered by venerated machine spirits.

Giving away for example a pretator would be pretty same as cutting of right arm voluntarily.the scale of the betrayal.

I have to say I think you mite be right on this point, it just seemed like a good way of possibly getting out of having to search for older vehicle models. Never mind! Off to Ebay!

 

 

Ghost of Danterra

 

I think IF a legio Company say hadnt turned and stayed loyal the would change there colors to represent the fact they stayed loyal or to show Ummm at loss for words here sorry..

 

That is the kind of thing I was thinking. Also it would be a nice way to link the forces. I think I did hear somewhere that black armour signifies serving the Emperor directly (i.e Chaplains) so maybe a black arm or helmet or somthing might be an idea. Also Black=Penance maybe?

 

 

Callas

 

I think this idea has merit, though I fear some of the Fluff-meisters may be getting ready to shoot you down - though personally I say go for it.

 

Thanks! I wont let them get me down! B)

 

Thanks again to all who posted your comments are a great help!

 

Knight

[Captain Idaho]

im a fluff head, and i think the idea has merit! the IA which describes captain garro gives a plot hook. it states that he fights covertly with others of his kind. granted it does give a few other theories, but none of them have been touched on my the GW so its your show!

 

on a slightly different concept (but related!) i had a theory that the legion of the damned were infact captain garro and his mates, along with other loyalist who are making amends.

[Callas]

Whilst it is true that chaplains and others use black armour quite extensively, so does a certain Chaos mob known as the Black Legion..... :wacko:

I think the idea you suggested, as in black parts of the armour a la 13th Co is a good one - perhaps use the 13th Co army list? After all, to have made it this far, these lads are going to be pretty damn good at what they do.

 

@Cap'n Idaho - the Legion of the Damned are widely accepted to be the remnants of the Fire Hawks chapter, lost en masse in a faulty warp-jump to target.

[Grimdarkness]

For a color scheme i go with a dark gray something close to black and penance but it could show them as mourning the fall of there lost brethren. The idea has merit good luck.

 

Grimm

[The4thHorseman]

A 13th co. list would be perfect for this IMHO.

 

Or if you wanted to go a different rout, I've seen this concept similar to what you're trying to achieve. The idea was that the group of marines who fled the dropsite massacre to tell the emperor, were held prisoner once they arrived on Terra. After the Heresy, they were put under the watch of the =I=. They were then lead by a radical Inquisitor who saw them as a perfect weapon to fight Chaos(Using Loyal Chaos Marines to fight Chaos Marines). To account for vehicles, the guy used Inquisition painted vehicles and and the marines had one shoulder pad with the Inquisition symbol on it and the other pad had the original legion on it, with black rims. The overall force looked rather coherent, however I have no Idea as to how they faired in game play.

[Hemal]

Whilst it is true that chaplains and others use black armour quite extensively, so does a certain Chaos mob known as the Black Legion..... :wacko:

I think the idea you suggested, as in black parts of the armour a la 13th Co is a good one - perhaps use the 13th Co army list? After all, to have made it this far, these lads are going to be pretty damn good at what they do.

 

@Cap'n Idaho - the Legion of the Damned are widely accepted to be the remnants of the Fire Hawks chapter, lost en masse in a faulty warp-jump to target.

 

 

Especially since they have only been observed since the last few hundred years (and after the Badab uprising...)

[Seleucus]

A 13th co. list would be perfect for this IMHO.

 

Or if you wanted to go a different rout, I've seen this concept similar to what you're trying to achieve. The idea was that the group of marines who fled the dropsite massacre to tell the emperor, were held prisoner once they arrived on Terra. After the Heresy, they were put under the watch of the =I=. They were then lead by a radical Inquisitor who saw them as a perfect weapon to fight Chaos(Using Loyal Chaos Marines to fight Chaos Marines). To account for vehicles, the guy used Inquisition painted vehicles and and the marines had one shoulder pad with the Inquisition symbol on it and the other pad had the original legion on it, with black rims. The overall force looked rather coherent, however I have no Idea as to how they faired in game play.

 

Could this be the Red Hunters?

 

Red armour with chapter badge of the inquisition insignia in a white circle?

 

I am sure a chapter of the loyalist remnants would be contiuously watched closely by the inquisition, and what better way than by having them working with, say, the Ordo Malleus to root out their former comrades.

 

So, always have either an inq. lord as an HQ (possibly as Chapter Master), or an inquisitor ally as an elite slot supposedly working with them -but also keeping an eye out for any sign of chaos creeping in?

 

Otherwise, play them as a 13th Co./renegade legion - loyal but shunned or hunted by other Imperial forces.

 

Seleucus

[Ferrata]

Moved to Liber to get more of an opinion by the fluffy people.

 

My Views, it's a flawed idea.

 

A loyalist force of marines from the Death guard, World Eaters and Emperors Children Legions in the 41st Millenium. Obviously these will not be the same marines who fought at Istvaan and got through to Terra, but their decendents.

Ok, fair enough. How have the created new marines while keeping a low profile? How have they resupplied themselves? How have they managed to repair their losses? Space Marine Chapters seem to be able to identify each other, so an unidentified force would always be classified "traitor" or "renegade". Chapters would shoot to kill, then ask questions.

 

I can imagine that many of the loyalist Legions such as the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard would not have wanted to have anything to do with these men after the Heresy, but a Legion such as my own beloved Dark Angels may have been able to empathise with the remnants of a Legion betrayed by their brothers.

I can't see the DA forgiving them. The DA haven't forgiven themselves for their fallen, so why would they forgive the minority of a fallen force? Even if the DA accepted them, I can't see any chapter helping them, just maybe not killing them.

 

The fluff for the company would therefore be that they have survived from the Heresy by keeping a relatively low profile and with some help along the way from other First Founding Chapters and maybe some of their successors. The company still uses the Gene Seed of their legions and maintains the armour and insignia from before the Heresy. The goal of the company is not unlike the Dark Angels themselves in that they wish to in some small way gain honour and redemption for their legions, mainly by attacking and stopping the plans of their former brothers.

So, they've kept a low profile but have managed to resupply themselves, get help of other chapters and tried to fight an innumerable foe. I'm not buying it. I can't see how such a small band of men could survive so long in the Imperium without any help from anyone.

 

Although, l think you've been a bit harsh on yourself, as far as restrictions go. Surely if they were supported by other chapters, they would recieve something within the ethos of the Chapter in question. For example, the IF would probably hand over a Vindicator, if anything, Or perhaps a Whirlwind

I really can't see the Imperial Fists giving away equipment to loyal traitors. The Imperial Fist where at the siege of the Golden Palace, they fought the hordes of Chaos, and now you want them to give away their vehicles to the brothers of the traitors?

 

And I'm a nicer fluffier.... :P

 

Ferrata

[Knight of the First Legion]

Thanks to everyone for the continued imput!

 

Captain Idaho

 

on a slightly different concept (but related!) i had a theory that the legion of the damned were infact captain garro and his mates, along with other loyalist who are making amends.

Thats alot how i view the company. Arriving from nowhere to stop the plans of Chaos at a vital point and then dissapearing as suddenly as they arrive. I dont see them as the sort to hang about for a protracted campaign as somwhere along the way somone will recognise they armour markinngs.

 

Ferrata

 

Ok, fair enough. How have the created new marines while keeping a low profile? How have they resupplied themselves? How have they managed to repair their losses? Space Marine Chapters seem to be able to identify each other, so an unidentified force would always be classified "traitor" or "renegade". Chapters would shoot to kill, then ask questions.

 

I figure that they recruit from some backwater feral world like most marines. On worlds such as this marines are simply known as 'sky warriors' and the like. No local imperial authorities around so no real problem.

 

The resupply and repair is abit harder, but I know from many of the black library novels that within the Imperium relatively few people have even seen a marine so if one turns up and asks for a few supplies the chances are youre goin to give them to him. I doubt that an average mechanicus magos could identify legion markings from before the heresy, and even if they could you could always wear a robe :blush:

 

So, they've kept a low profile but have managed to resupply themselves, get help of other chapters and tried to fight an innumerable foe. I'm not buying it. I can't see how such a small band of men could survive so long in the Imperium without any help from anyone.

 

I think that the imperium is such a large place that the company would have worlds and havens such as asteroid belts and moons that they could use as bases and supply dumps. If you think about it there are worlds and systems that are deserted entirely because they have no strategic importance in the big scheme of things. And using the methods ive outlined above the company could keep themselves relatively well supplied.

 

As for the guys who suggested the 13th Co list, im off out now to have a look at it and see what I think. Also thanks to those who expressed views on the pennance marking idea.

 

Knight

[Ferrata]

I figure that they recruit from some backwater feral world like most marines. On worlds such as this marines are simply known as 'sky warriors' and the like. No local imperial authorities around so no real problem.

But to make Marines, you don't just need Humans, you need all the equipment to extract the gene-seed, frow the organs, implant the organs, the synthesis of all the chemcials required and additional extra's. I doubt they would be able to get their hands on such equipment without being found out. I'm not sure about the whole just giving equipment to marines, I'm sure they could fight for them (but then they would be renegade). I think all of the Forgeworld's will have the database of Marine chapter to identify Loyal chapters, so they don't give equipment to Rogue/Traitor Marines.

 

Ferrata

[Knight of the First Legion]

But to make Marines, you don't just need Humans, you need all the equipment to extract the gene-seed, frow the organs, implant the organs, the synthesis of all the chemcials required and additional extra's. I doubt they would be able to get their hands on such equipment without being found out. I'm not sure about the whole just giving equipment to marines, I'm sure they could fight for them (but then they would be renegade). I think all of the Forgeworld's will have the database of Marine chapter to identify Loyal chapters, so they don't give equipment to Rogue/Traitor Marines.

 

You make some good points here! :blush:

 

All I do i suppose is say that the company had the relevent equipment etc to make new marines on the ships in their fleet, as I believe I read somewhere that the Legions somtimes recruited from the worlds they conquered for the imperium (I may be wrong, somone tell me if I am). If I am right then that could explain that away.

 

As for the database of Marine Chapters, I dont know if the company could pull off claiming to be who they werent in order to get the equipment? How much equipment do marines get from the Mechanicus anyway? Can they make their own munitions etc?

 

Knight

[space wolf]

just a few questions

 

How do the chaos marines replenish their numbers...they dont have access to the equipment either?

The 13th co had very little support and stayed alive in the EYE OF TERROR of all places, and are still formidable, why cant his force to the same?

[Ferrata]

How do the chaos marines replenish their numbers...they dont have access to the equipment either?

Fabious Bile creates Marines for the Chaos Legions in equal numbers for all of them. Plus that an average Chaos Marine will live a lot longer than a Loyal Marine, he can keep the numbers up. Plus, they had a very large number to being with, so losing a few thousand won't dent their number that much.

 

The 13th co had very little support and stayed alive in the EYE OF TERROR of all places, and are still formidable, why cant his force to the same?

I know you Wolves don't like to admit it, but they would have been touched by the Warp. They have survived that long for the same reason Chaos Marines are still around from the Heresy, the Eye mutates time and ageing.

 

All I do i suppose is say that the company had the relevent equipment etc to make new marines on the ships in their fleet, as I believe I read somewhere that the Legions somtimes recruited from the worlds they conquered for the imperium (I may be wrong, somone tell me if I am). If I am right then that could explain that away

Agreed that some of the ships would have the equipment (otherwise fleet based chapters wouldn't work), but it would only be on the large ships and even then only on a small number. Unless your marines managed to steal one of these ships, they won't have the equipment.

 

As for the database of Marine Chapters, I dont know if the company could pull off claiming to be who they werent in order to get the equipment? How much equipment do marines get from the Mechanicus anyway? Can they make their own munitions etc?

They will get a fair amount of the larger stuff or numerous stuff. Even if they make their own, where do they get the materials from? the tools? The Machines? You've got a lot of questions to answer.

 

I'm sorry if I seem to be attacking everything you say, but with a Chapter like this you've got a lot of thinking to do, and the best way to get answers is by trying to prove someone (or in this case me) wrong :blush:

 

Ferrata

[Knight of the First Legion]

Ferrata

 

I'm sorry if I seem to be attacking everything you say, but with a Chapter like this you've got a lot of thinking to do, and the best way to get answers is by trying to prove someone (or in this case me) wrong

It's ok, the only way im gonna get this right fluff wise is through feedback and debate. :huh:

 

And I shall do my best to prove you wrong! :blush:

 

Agreed that some of the ships would have the equipment (otherwise fleet based chapters wouldn't work), but it would only be on the large ships and even then only on a small number. Unless your marines managed to steal one of these ships, they won't have the equipment.

 

The Death Guard IA in states that Captain Garro steals the Cruiser 'Eisenstein' and breaks the traitors blockade and gets back to Terra. Although this has changed to a frigate in the HH Art Book im gonna stick with the IA article for the class of vessel.

 

A cruiser is a reasonably large ship (only battle crusiers and battleships (inc battlebarges) are larger. Also to manage to break a blockade that is made up of the majority of the fleets of four legions the Eisenstein must have been quite a ship. So I will have the Eisenstein as the ship that the company is primarily based on, as a capital ship it houses the necessary equipment for the production of new marines and limited munitions producing facilities.

 

They will get a fair amount of the larger stuff or numerous stuff. Even if they make their own, where do they get the materials from? the tools? The Machines?

 

In my opinion they would have the equipment in the Eisenstein to make all they need (munitions and repairs) the only question would be raw materials.

 

As I understand it the majority of mining worlds are relatively isolated affairs. I also dont think many leaders of mining communities would argue with a marine detatchment taking some of their raw materials for their own needs (would you argue with a marine?). Although these settlement may have adepts of the machine god on them I dont think they would be very senior or have access to any type of marine chapter database.

 

Also a marine could just appear as a head on a screen and demand they place materials in the hold of the ship he sends down. No actual meeting need ever take place.

 

Knight

[space wolf]

+++ Mod Edit - Come on, you know better than that, sw. :blush: +++ (Aurelius)

[Commissar Molotov]

+++ Mod edit to remove quote of post above. (Aurelius) +++

 

he Death Guard IA in states that Captain Garro steals the Cruiser 'Eisenstein' and breaks the traitors blockade and gets back to Terra. Although this has changed to a frigate in the HH Art Book im gonna stick with the IA article for the class of vessel.

 

A cruiser is a reasonably large ship (only battle crusiers and battleships (inc battlebarges) are larger. Also to manage to break a blockade that is made up of the majority of the fleets of four legions the Eisenstein must have been quite a ship.

 

My understanding is the Eisenstein faked engine trouble, allowing it to fall behind most of the other ships before escaping as quickly as possible.

[Hemal]

The Eisenstein pretended to have engine trouble to allow it to lag back, and other loaylist forces took over the gun batteries or bridges of other ships to cover the escape of teh Eisenstein. Garro and teh DeathGuard were responsible for the taking over of teh Eisenstein, but I don;t know if any other loyalist forces were around on board. Maybe someone with the HH book can confirm?

[Knight of the First Legion]

Hemal

 

The Eisenstein pretended to have engine trouble to allow it to lag back, and other loaylist forces took over the gun batteries or bridges of other ships to cover the escape of teh Eisenstein. Garro and teh DeathGuard were responsible for the taking over of teh Eisenstein, but I don;t know if any other loyalist forces were around on board. Maybe someone with the HH book can confirm?

 

I have the HH book in question and it just states that Garro and some other loyalists warned the loyalists on the planet then escaped on the Eisenstein. It doesn't mention anything about them faking engine trouble. Also the Death Guard IA states that the Eisenstein ran the traitors blockade, suggesting it left fighting rather than pretending to have engine trouble. Thats the fluff I have access too.

 

Knight