The Betrayed

[Hemal]

Ok, the fluff I have is that the Eisenstein hung back and then escaped, based on the old IA: Death Guard...and other, older fluff from Adeptus Titanicus/ Space Marine

[Kastellan Kong]

Sorry I don't have my books with me right now, but wasn't Garros ship virtually destroyed when they escaped and they just barley managed to get away? Wasn't the ship found by the Imperial Fists drifting through space? I'm just wondering what state the equipment onboard would be in after all of that...

I might be wrong about all of this however :blush:

[space wolf]

honestly I dont see what the problem is? I can see a problem, if your trying to make a chapter out of the remnents of these three chapters...however nothing can stop you from playing a lost company. Infact i think it is far more interesting, and believeable, to be playing the one loyal company of Death Guard, than a chapter with loyalist DG, and Emp Children, etc. (especially since there is fluff to back it up.) it isnt totally unbelieveable that a company can survive...perhaps they are somewhat like the celestial lions...a small remnant group, determined to take the fight to the enemy until they all die out. Perhaps their lives have been extended through many excursions through the maelstrom...or something like that.

[Tubal]

I was thinking of an army badge or maybe a portion of the armour being black or somthing.

Their legion markings would definately not be usable, since they would be recognized sooner or later. You could go the Deathwatch route and paint over the left shoulderpad (and arm) with a new colour, black for example, and choose a new symbol for the amalgamated 'company'. Keep the right shoulder as it was, with tactical and squad markings. The imperial aquila (eagle) is the most logical replacement symbol :devil:

The etched aquila sprue from forgeworld can be put on pads (look at the bottom of the page), or you could get some custom transfers from Griffon Games or Ginfritters.

 

Fluffwise, you're going to have to make some pretty 'inventive' assumptions if you want an army like this. The 'under inquisitorial scrutiny' route is the most plausible although it is also a bit clich

[Ferrata]

honestly I dont see what the problem is? I can see a problem, if your trying to make a chapter out of the remnents of these three chapters...however nothing can stop you from playing a lost company

The same problems arise, how can a chapter go unsupported from any Imperium help for thousands of years? How have they not been attacked by Loyal Chapters? Why didn't they turn traitor with the rest of the Legion? Lots of questions, very few answers ^_^

 

Ferrata

[Knight of the First Legion]

Ferrata

 

You seem unconvinced! :)

 

The same problems arise, how can a chapter go unsupported from any Imperium help for thousands of years? How have they not been attacked by Loyal Chapters? Why didn't they turn traitor with the rest of the Legion? Lots of questions, very few answers

 

Ok to try to answer this little lot. The company can get the support it needs from the imperium, i.e raw materials and food from isolated worlds as I have described in a previous post. While this support is not from mighty forge worlds or from vast armies it serves the needs of the company.

 

They have not been attacked by other Chapters because they do not conduct themselves in plain view for all to see. They work much like the Legion of the dammed do as Garro is described in the Death Guard IA, appearing suddenly then dissapearing when the battle is won. Only acting to thwart the plans of their former brothers. Also as a fleet based company operating from a few forgotton regions of space they would be very hard to track down.

 

They didnt turn traitor as many of them were from Terra rather than the Legion homeworld and so felt loyal to the Emperor rather than their traitor Primarchs.

 

Ok Decision time! ^_^

 

I have decided after reading the responses on this thread to go ahead and build the 'betrayed company'.

 

IMHO the majority of the responses have been positive with only a few reservations as to how I could/would make the avaliable fluff fit the project.

 

So the following is a few ideas I've got in regard to the painting/modelling/force makeup of the company.

 

Colour scheme/Markings:

 

The company will be made up of marines from 3 legions (Death Guard, World Eaters, Emperor's Children). I am going to try to paint the marines in their original colours as much as possible, so off white and green for the Death Guard, White and blue for the World Eaters and Purple and Gold for the Emperors Children.

 

However as suggested by Tubal I am not goin to paint the legion markings on the left pad. This is fluffy as the company may now believe that the symbol has been sullied by their brethren and would make it easier to interact with citizens of the Imperial if they had too. In its place will be a pennance symbol, im going to avoid the aquilla as the DG and WE have never been given permission to use it, plus they prob dont think they deserve too. Instead im goin to go with a skull (cant beat em!). :D

 

I would have liked to have used one from the legion of the damned but they only come on mixed sprues so now so im thinking of using the BA Vet skull instead.

 

http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/st...2250&orignav=10

 

Squad markings will be the usual, so arrows for tactical, crosses for assault and chevrons for devastator.

 

Amour variants:

 

Im going to use armour from the heresy to fit in with the theme of the company, so that means Marks II-V as I believe Mark VI was only introduced at the end of the Heresy.

 

I can make Mark IV quite easily from the BT sprue and the new Forge World Red Scorpions.

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/rsvets.htm

 

The Vet Serg has Emperors Children written all over him IMO! :D

 

The other armour variant i will make using a mix of Chaos and Imperial plastic parts, green stuff and the Iron Warrior heads 2,3 and 4 (minus the horns of course).

 

IW Heads: http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/st...2067&orignav=10

 

Any vehicles i use will be from the good old days of 2nd Ed (if I use vehicles at all).

 

Force makeup:

 

Ive got the Eye of Terror codex on order from my local hobby store. I will either be using either a standard space marine list using the traits Blessed be the Warriors, Uphold the Honour of the Emperor and Flesh Over Steel, or using the 13th Co list (without the wulfen).

 

The company will have a mix of squads from the 3 Legions, although the assault squads will be mainly made up from the World Eaters. The company will be lead by a Death Guard captain and contain an Emperors Children Chaplain.

 

Knight

[Ferrata]

You seem unconvinced

^_^

 

The Legion of the Damned are Ghosts, so appear and disappear because they are magical, you marines will be "real", thus will require ships/drop pods/teleports to get them to the warzone. Any SM fighting will easily notice the new craft and marines, thus ask them to identify themselves. I think the Lost Company is more believable than the Garro decendants, as Garro's ship was apparently crippled, so would most of the equipment on board. Plus, you dont have to worry about contaiminating the gene-seeds with each others.

 

Your going for it, more power to you. But I will be waiting any time you post any fluff :D

 

Ferrata

[Knight of the First Legion]

Ferrata

 

Your going for it, more power to you. But I will be waiting any time you post any fluff

Haha, I think i've found my fluff nemesis! ^_^

 

The Legion of the Damned are Ghosts, so appear and disappear because they are magical, you marines will be "real", thus will require ships/drop pods/teleports to get them to the warzone. Any SM fighting will easily notice the new craft and marines, thus ask them to identify themselves.

 

This is true, the only thing I can say in the defence of the company is that when I said like the Legion of the Dammed I was refering to they way they arrive just in time. I see the company as arriving in the latter stages of a battle to tip the scales and then departing very quickly.

 

Also IMO other marines would try to use this to their advantage and wouldnt have the time to stop and ask questions. I also dont see them using a shoot first ask questions later policy on marines who are attacking their enemies. When the fighting is over the company leaves almost as quickly as it arrived leaving only a few discarded black droppods as a memento. If they are asked to identify themselves they would state that they are the Emperors soldiers etc, now that I have removed the legion symbols I dont think any other marine would have too much of a problem with it. Especially considering there are supposedly 1000 marine chapters out there so no one will know them all.

 

Hope this clears up how i see the link with the Legion of the Dammed etc

 

Knight

[space wolf]

my only concern is the use of three different chapters...I would stick to one...like a lost surviving company of emperor's childern OR a surviving company of death guard. NOT a surviving company comprised of both death guard and emps children.

[Tubal]

The fact that the precise number of space marine chapters is unknown implies that some chapters aren't accounted for, and another chapter who is aided by an unidentified force of marines would probably ask the hard questions later.

Even so, it might be wise to think up a cover story, so to speak. A name for the force that they can use to identify themselves, but one that isn't too descriptive, would be good.

"Unknown battlebarge, identify yourselves"

"We are taskforce Nimitz. Preparing to engage enemy"

 

What are the most important fluff-holes you have to plug? This is the list I can think of:

1. Why were they allowed to live after the heresy
   
2. What initial equipment did they have for producing marines and munitions
   
3. Where do they get more equipment from
   
4. How do they deal with other Imperial organizations?
   
5. Who else (if anyone) knows about them?
   
6. Do they have a 'patron'? (Inquisition?)
   

#2 could be solved by assuming that the Eisenstein was primarily an apothecarion ship, which might be why it wasn't watched as closely. I don't know the exakt fluff surrounding the Eisenstein, but is it possible that they at some point communicated with the Emperor directly? If they did they may have been given his blessing, and that weighs heavily even ten thousand years after, read 'Legacy' for an example (although it's about a Rogue Trader charter).

 

The shoulderpad you've chosen looks good btw.

[Knight of the First Legion]

Space Wolf

 

my only concern is the use of three different chapters...I would stick to one...like a lost surviving company of emperor's childern OR a surviving company of death guard. NOT a surviving company comprised of both death guard and emps children.

I can see what you're sayin sadly the fact that the marines of the three Legions put aside their differences in fighting the traitors is part of the appeal for me. As I said at the start I wanted to make a force of the survivors of the Isstvan III betrayal, a motely crew of loyal marines who are attempting to earn some small measure of redemption for the sins of their legions.

 

I imagine the stoic Death Guard holding the line while the frenzied World Eaters take the fight to the traitors being supported by the slightly pink looking Emperors Children! ^_^

 

Basically I think I want the coolness of 3 legions rather than 1. Very greedy really. :D

 

That being said I could limit it to one I suppose, it would be Death Guard if I did. I shall keep that thought in mind, especially if others feel the same way as you do (dont wana upset the fraters)

 

Tubal

 

The cover story/name is a good idea I shall try to think of a sutable name, maybe a pun would be good (feel free to suggest names everyone).

 

What are the most important fluff-holes you have to plug? This is the list I can think of:

Why were they allowed to live after the heresy

What initial equipment did they have for producing marines and munitions

Where do they get more equipment from

How do they deal with other Imperial organizations?

Who else (if anyone) knows about them?

Do they have a 'patron'? (Inquisition?)

 

Garro seems to have had the respect of both Dorn and Malcador, I can see Dorn especially respecting the fact that Garro and the others stood with the Emperor even though the fight was almost impossible to win. I also dont think that the Imperium was less parranoid back then with the marines having much bigger say in the running of things. If Dorn said let them live i think they would have been allowed to, and of course the Imperium needed all the loyal marines it could get its hands on post heresy. Garro and his men may even have fought at the siege of the Emperors palace as he was on Terra, that would surely be worth somthing, who knows he may have even got a pardon from the Emperor while he was there.

 

Equipment wise I personally believe the Eisenstein was in ok shape and she managed to get to a rendevous with the Imperial Fists intact. As a Death Guard Crusier commanded by a Captain (Im assuming Captain was his marine rank not naval rank) I believe the Eisenstein would be well stocked to fight independantly of the rest of the Legion with the necessary medical and manufacturing equipment on board. In the fluff I am writing all the marines that survived Isstvan and those who followed Garro fight from this vessel.

 

Dealing with Imperial orgainisations is only done when absolutley necessary and even then the company tends to deal with more isolated settlements and planets (less chance of an inquisitor being about). These planets can provide for the basic needs of the company in raw materials. In a fight the company would use a cover name as you suggested and then get in and out as fast as possible.

 

I would think that some of the First Founding Legions such as the Imperial Fists would know of a force of loyal marines from the DG/WE/EC that sided with the Emperor at the time of the heresy and it would probably be written down somewhere on Terra. However I doubt any of them would believe the company to still be operating in the 41st millenium.

 

No inquisitorial patron. Though it would be easier to say 'there allowed to do all this cos inquisitor (insert name here) says so that doesnt do it for me. The inquisition is not involved at all, except maybe following any rumours the company generates.

 

Hope this answers some of ur concerns.

 

Knight

[Viperidae]

I think the whole concept for this legion is fantastic! :D

 

I'm glad you're not being dissuaded by questions and criticisms - keeping what you like, explaining what was unclear. Excellent. One thing I've seen a lot of in my reading of 'fluff discussions' is most people have preset assumptions about what an army's background must cover or explain. In truth, I believe, the fluff need not answer ANY questions but should rather be entertaining and tell a story.

 

Any questions you can't answer (or don't want to at this stage) can be left 'unknown'. Some of Games Workshop's greatest fluff uses that device entirely! You don't need to have everything explained for all naysayers before the CONCEPT is even decided! Too many people lose sight of this and end up with a newspaper article/autopsy report.

 

Anyway, I lurk often, post rarely and this got my attention. Maybe someday I'll post what really happened to the 13th Wulfen Company and their current incarnation... ;)

[Knight of the First Legion]

Thanks for the support Viperidae :D

 

I agree with you that the story is far more important that getting every possible fluff angle covered, afterall it was the great story of these marines who stood against their own legions in defence of the Emperor that got my interested in doing this projest in the first place.

 

Also im very honoured that you chose to use one of your 20 posts since Oct 02 on my thread!

 

As a side note for anyone whos interested my bits from GW came yesterday, so ill hopefully be knocking together some test minis later today. Ill post links to them either here or if im feeling very brave in PC&A.

 

Also having reviewed the list ive decided to go for a straight SM list with the traits i mentioned over the 13th Co list.

 

Knight

[Viperidae]

hehehe...yeah, 20 posts...kinda embarrassing. I could've sworn I posted at least 6000 more times than that. Hmm. I was going to add 'But I only have 20 posts so what do i know' but it just sounded too bitey... :D

 

Shot in the dark remarks tend to hit someone's sensitivity button at some point...

Lucky I didn't eh ;)

 

Post what you've got done and keep us up to date. I'd love to see the progress of this project. And as a 13th company player, I'd agree that the 13th are probably not the best idea. I'm virtually rewriting my own codex from the ground up to squeeze in some creativity, and while fluff needn't answer every question, I'd be interested to see you explain Wulfen, Wolf Packs and Marks of the Wulfen for non Wulfen marines.

 

Not against it, but interested... ;)

[JaM_TW]

Interesting indeed... B) If you have some test minis ready please post them !

[Knight of the First Legion]

My test minis are built and primed. Im just going to get them to a reasonable table top quality (which is are far as my painting goes anyway) and then ill put up some pics. These will probably be on fri or sat.

 

Thanks for the continued support! :)

 

Knight