Traitor Geneseed

[refuse]

Helping Molotov I thought I would start a discussion on traitor geneseed.

 

Yes, yes, I would love to make my post-heresy Emperor's Children. A totally loyalist version of the EC, absolved of all their sins, and working to redeem their Legion's lost honor. A contionous pennance until the EC/Fulgrim are destroyed.

 

But how can I justify it? And how can I counter any arguments?

 

Lost in the warp?

 

The AM messed up and used EC Geneseed?

 

The High Lords decided to try again?

 

A secret inquisitor's effort to create a legion from crusade era geneseed?

 

 

 

A big question is where do they get the geneseed? The storing of the geneseed wasn't started until the 2nd founding, possibly later with the AM gaining an upper hand, and the foundings not being based on Chapter size. So where is the fluff that supports the Imperium having any pre-heresy geneseed? And even if they do, would they have enough to start a chapter? They could take 1 and create more, just for storage, but why?

 

 

I look forward to people's opinons.

[ironloki]

I had a thought that hit me. Weren't the Raptors supposed to be of EC geneseed before GW changed their minds. I suppose you could have the high lords using the Geneseed of the Traitor legions but they just don't tell anyone. Afterall the Traitor geneseed is some of the purist there is. So why not use it but just don't tell them who they are descended from incase they turn out like them. I know it sounds corny but Star Wars - Luke's not told that Vader is his father incase he turns out the same. Also in films where there is the up and coming Hero who's father is the bad guy and only finds out of the end. If you dont tell them then they wont look up to their(chaotic) Primarchs or chaos brothers as a source of influence.

 

You end up with pure geneseed which hasn't been tainted or degraded over the years. I'll have more of a think on a full stomach ;)

[Aurelius Rex]

Weren't the Raptors supposed to be of EC geneseed before GW changed their minds.

 

I can't think of any GW fluff where this was ever written down, but that is not to say it doesn't exist.

 

I actually asked REFUSE about where this came from about 18 months ago after hearing him mention it - an expert on the EC's - did you ever find that reference you were searching for, REF?

 

In the absence of a reference it is plausable that this was an interesting piece of fanfic that has attained the status of Urban net legend.

 

Alternatively, the Horus Heresy artbooks may end up incorporating / reinforcing it... they have changed enough stuff on a whim that you never rule anything out. ;)

[refuse]

Weren't the Raptors supposed to be of EC geneseed before GW changed their minds.

 

I can't think of any GW fluff where this was ever written down, but that is not to say it doesn't exist.

 

I actually asked REFUSE about where this came from about 18 months ago after hearing him mention it - an expert on the EC's - did you ever find that reference you were searching for, REF?

No.

Even the people with all the stuff can't find it.

So it may be one of the urban legends of 40k.

[Ferrata]

Does the Imperium have stores of Traitor Gene-seed? I think first we need to find the fluff that states they do before going on to discussing if it could be used :D

 

Ferrata

[Commissar Molotov]

Eh... thank you for the help, REFUSE, though I was planning to leave this until later. Regardless, it's here now. (And anything relevant will certainly be incorporated into the 'successor chapters and gene-seed' thread. :D)

 

Ferrata:

 

On Earth the Adeptus Terra created genetic repositories to produce and store Space Marine gene-seed. These banks were used to provide all new gene-seed for Space Marines, and, to prevent cross-contamination, the genetic material of each of the old Legions was isolated. Henceforth the new Space Marine Chapters would receive gene-seed only from their own genetic stock.

 

The gene-seed of the Traitor Legions was placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these dangerous gene stocks should be destroyed.

 

So, traitor gene-seed is in Imperial hands, though it's theoretically inaccessible. It's possible to claim the 'large galaxy, anything's possible' argument, but I think that smacks of laziness. I think that heretic gene-stock should be avoided. It could be argued that there is some space for traitor gene-seed to be used in the 13th 'Dark' Founding, or the 21st 'Cursed' Founding. Perhaps that's why the thirteenth founding is so 'dark'. Either way, it certainly shouldn't be something normal. And I'm not convinced that any such chapter should be told of their origin.

[refuse]

Mixed geneseed?

 

 

It is also the case that the processes utilised by the Adeptus Mechanicus to store and to cultivate tithed geneseed from the Adeptus Astartes may become corrupted and imperfect. Though the particulars of a new Founding are shrouded in secrecy and arcane ritual, it is known that all of a new chapter's genetic make-up is not always drawn from the seed of one donor chapter. Instead, a new chapter may represent a genetic cocktail of the geneseed of others, and although purity testing is rigorous in the extreme, it is perfectly possible that these disparate elements may react with one another at a later date, in ways quite unforeseeable by their creators, and so the seed of a disastrous mutation or character flaw is sown.

 

Eh... thank you for the help, REFUSE, though I was planning to leave this until later. Regardless, it's here now. (And anything relevant will certainly be incorporated into the 'successor chapters and gene-seed' thread. :D)

 

Ferrata:

 

On Earth the Adeptus Terra created genetic repositories to produce and store Space Marine gene-seed. These banks were used to provide all new gene-seed for Space Marines, and, to prevent cross-contamination, the genetic material of each of the old Legions was isolated. Henceforth the new Space Marine Chapters would receive gene-seed only from their own genetic stock.

 

The gene-seed of the Traitor Legions was placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these dangerous gene stocks should be destroyed.

 

So, traitor gene-seed is in Imperial hands, though it's theoretically inaccessible. It's possible to claim the 'large galaxy, anything's possible' argument, but I think that smacks of laziness. I think that heretic gene-stock should be avoided. It could be argued that there is some space for traitor gene-seed to be used in the 13th 'Dark' Founding, or the 21st 'Cursed' Founding. Perhaps that's why the thirteenth founding is so 'dark'. Either way, it certainly shouldn't be something normal. And I'm not convinced that any such chapter should be told of their origin.

 

So a few things.

1) they were collecting geneseed prior to the heresy.

2) the time lock thing. . . . Doesn't mean it doesn't open every day!

3) there is "old" legion geneseed.

Henceforth the new space marien chapters, implies that at time older chapters may have gotten "mixed" geneseed.

 

 

But note the IA article: Cursed founding.

 

The laboratorium we discovered contained a plethora of ancient machines, and rny heart leapt to see so much techno-arcana preserved in such an undamaged condition. But it was the centre of the laboratoria that demanded my most immediate attention. Connected by vast bundles of pulsing tubes and cables to the machines were six ceiling height incubation tanks. Three were empty, but the others contained amniotic fluid with an enormous human male floating within them. The physiology of these giants put me in mind of Space Marines, but these brutes were far larger than those members of the Adeptus Astartes whom I have laid eyes upon. Two of these tubes were obviously damaged, the fluid within cloudy and stagnant, but the third stiil appeared to be functioning after Throne knows how many millennia. Truly the Machine God had smiled on us! We drained the first two tubes and, between six of us, managed to lift the bodies from within.

 

Genetor Quincus had the bodies taken to the morlarium and began the autopsies immediately while I initiated the revivification of the third body. The process would take almost eight hours and I hoped that we would have a clearer idea of what exactly we were dealing with after the autopsies were complete. I shall append the autopsy reports of the first two beings to this log later this evening. Also attached are the fragments of the facility commander's records which I have been able to recover. I am unsure as to their real value as the recorder of the log appears to be raving and of unsound mind. Nevertheless, I shall append them and allow you to make your own judgement.

Hidden facilities making Marines?

 

This would seem to break the "only the high lords" make marines ideas, as well as removing the limitation of traitor geneseed (though being recognized by the Imperium may be tougher), see above points.

[Grimdarkness]

This could all boil down to a nature over nurture case the emperor censer the Word bearers for being slow in there re conquest of the galaxy sending logar down the path to damnation. What's to stop a radical inquisitor from using the word bearer gene seed to create the ultimate marine chapter for use with the witch hunter's as the emperor is now revered as a god the word bearers would be perfect loyal to the high lords or the Inquisition first and only.

 

The night lords pre-cog ability's could be put to use preventing the eldar from there schemes

 

the paranoia of the iron warriors could stop the tau cold

 

the perfection of the E.C could be used to aid those worlds affected by the plague world created by typhus as there aptho's where the best of any legion during the crusade.

 

It was angron who implanted the aggressor thingys in his legions head take that away and you have stable blood angel's.

 

The death guard take away typhus betrayal and you have a bulwark that could stop the next black crusade at the gate.

 

black legion thousand sons alpha legion (I'm mission one) but these 3 i have no idea. With work you could use the alpha Legion but the others ;) (shrug)

[Nicili]

It could be argued that there is some space for traitor gene-seed to be used in the 13th 'Dark' Founding, or the 21st 'Cursed' Founding. Perhaps that's why the thirteenth founding is so 'dark'.

 

Hmm, this is pure speculation, but i was thinking, If the imperium had finally been willing to expirament in the use of traitor geneseeds, it could have been the time of the 13th founding. That may be why it is dark, it was a time that is chosen to be forgotten for a mistake.

 

Another idea of my speculation that arrived was that why would have the 13th founding been unsuccessful with the use of the traitor geneseed. What if the chapter's created became Exocommunicate due to traitorous actions ( Back to the Nature vs. Nuture discussion). That may be why no traitor geneseed is used, and why most of the chapters of the 13th's fate have been 'unknown'

 

EDIT: I was also thinking, maybe some marines are told they are descended from UM or IF; but truly they bear no resemblence to these stocks; but the high lords might blame decrease of purity...(hey there is always corruption in government)

 

-Nicili

[MikeH]

Please stay away from use of traitor geneseed. It is one of the DIY huge nonos.

 

Want post heresy EC? Make a chapter using say.... the IF geneseed and give them similar beliefs/tactics and a semi similar color scheme.

 

The use of traitor geneseed would most likely result in many a head rolling "this day and age" in the 40K universe as the Inquisition starts executing whole sale for allowing more chapters to be made with the possibility of unavoidable betrayal.

[Nicili]

Please stay away from use of traitor geneseed. It is one of the DIY huge nonos.

 

I think here we are trying to just speculate on some justifications, i can bet most of us understand that many other players will say its a no no, we are just trying to find a loop hole.

 

-Nicili

[the_raptor]

Please stay away from use of traitor geneseed. It is one of the DIY huge nonos.

 

Want post heresy EC? Make a chapter using say.... the IF geneseed and give them similar beliefs/tactics and a semi similar color scheme.

 

The use of traitor geneseed would most likely result in many a head rolling "this day and age" in the 40K universe as the Inquisition starts executing whole sale for allowing more chapters to be made with the possibility of unavoidable betrayal.

 

Why? The geneseed has precisely nothing to do with a chapters loyalty or heresy. The Space Vampires and Puppies geneseed causes them to be almost as bad as Khorne berserkers. There is no questioning of their loyalty. Many of the traitor legions had geneseed that was as pure as Ultramarine stock. They went traitor because their leaders where corrupted not because of genetic flaws. I can point you to the Dark Angels as a case study on how this might happen.

 

And the Inquisition does what the High Lords tell it to do in most cases.

 

But I do not see such information being public knowledge. The commoners in the 40k universe are far to superstitious to work with marines created from traitor geneseed.

 

The other option for having post-heresy loyal marines for a traitor legion is to have them doing the 13th company thing and fighting their traitorous brethren in the Eye of Terror.

[DARKTROOPER]

have you ever considered just having a company not going Heretical. Imagine the guy from the BA books on a larger scale. A company or more of marines watching their whole world go crazy. While they see their brothers slip into heresy they instead went through the motions pretending to follow them while still keeping their loyalty.

Maybe they were stuck in the warp during the Heresy and emerged at the end?

Maybe some marines have repented and these are their descendants?

[Leichardt]

Ahh, this is just quick question/thought/rant - but I find it interesting (and if it's plausible, hands off for the moment, I would like to work it into my IA).

 

Traitor gene-seed is that of the Primarch's who turned against the Emperor. Yet the first Space Marines had no primarchal traits, as in no geneseed of Primarchs what-so-ever. They accompanied the Emperor on the Crusade, and seemed to function fine. Wouldn't that say that they would have stocks of unsolicited geneseed still, with no Primarchs influence, loyal or renegade? The legions were created before the Primarchs were found so it makes sense....

 

...in my twisted head.

 

That being said, I don't have a lot of rescources to back this claim, so shoot it down and I won't mind.

[MikeH]

Darktrooper, a company of Death guard supposedly did just that... and where wiped out bythe Imperium.

[Goththing]

Isnt it said that the Traitor Legions Gene stock is locked away on Mars, im pretty sure you could write a back story of an Inquisitor "bending" the will of a Magos to his will.

 

Actualy i think ive just found my new army idea :D

[the_raptor]

Ahh, this is just quick question/thought/rant - but I find it interesting (and if it's plausible, hands off for the moment, I would like to work it into my IA).

 

Traitor gene-seed is that of the Primarch's who turned against the Emperor. Yet the first Space Marines had no primarchal traits, as in no geneseed of Primarchs what-so-ever. They accompanied the Emperor on the Crusade, and seemed to function fine. Wouldn't that say that they would have stocks of unsolicited geneseed still, with no Primarchs influence, loyal or renegade? The legions were created before the Primarchs were found so it makes sense....

 

...in my twisted head.

 

That being said, I don't have a lot of rescources to back this claim, so shoot it down and I won't mind.

 

I think that is only true of the very first marines (Didn't these become the Adeptus Custodes?) which where made before the Emperor started the Primarch project. AFAIK the great crusade marines where created from the data or samples that the Emperor had after the Primarchs where scattered through the warp. And when found the Primarchs where given the legion that bore their geneseed. They then used new samples from the Primarchs because they where more pure or easier to attain.

[refuse]

Ahh, this is just quick question/thought/rant - but I find it interesting (and if it's plausible, hands off for the moment, I would like to work it into my IA).

 

Traitor gene-seed is that of the Primarch's who turned against the Emperor. Yet the first Space Marines had no primarchal traits, as in no geneseed of Primarchs what-so-ever. They accompanied the Emperor on the Crusade, and seemed to function fine. Wouldn't that say that they would have stocks of unsolicited geneseed still, with no Primarchs influence, loyal or renegade? The legions were created before the Primarchs were found so it makes sense....

 

...in my twisted head.

 

That being said, I don't have a lot of rescources to back this claim, so shoot it down and I won't mind.

 

 

Ahh, this is just quick question/thought/rant - but I find it interesting (and if it's plausible, hands off for the moment, I would like to work it into my IA).

 

Traitor gene-seed is that of the Primarch's who turned against the Emperor. Yet the first Space Marines had no primarchal traits, as in no geneseed of Primarchs what-so-ever. They accompanied the Emperor on the Crusade, and seemed to function fine. Wouldn't that say that they would have stocks of unsolicited geneseed still, with no Primarchs influence, loyal or renegade? The legions were created before the Primarchs were found so it makes sense....

 

...in my twisted head.

 

That being said, I don't have a lot of rescources to back this claim, so shoot it down and I won't mind.

 

I think that is only true of the very first marines (Didn't these become the Adeptus Custodes?) which where made before the Emperor started the Primarch project. AFAIK the great crusade marines where created from the data or samples that the Emperor had after the Primarchs where scattered through the warp. And when found the Primarchs where given the legion that bore their geneseed. They then used new samples from the Primarchs because they where more pure or easier to attain.

 

 

There are technically several types of marines.

 

The original Marines that the Emperor used to tame the SOL system. These were more "uplifed" humans, and they fought in the Thunder Armor (techno barbarians). These had nothing to do with the Primarchs.

 

Then there were the "primarch DNA" marines. These were the original marines that started the crusade. They were chapter sized, and created indvidually.

 

Then when the primarchs were found, the geneseed process was developed. This allowed the original chapters to expand beyond the 1000 marine limit to Legion sized. This was the first founding.

 

Post Primarch loss we have the geneseed marines we know of today.

[Gree]

So it has gotten to you Refuse? Now gene-seed does not detirmine loyalty. The EC had the purest gene-seed and before the heresy, and the BA and the SW where ridden with mutations. The marines in the heresy where more ''human'' than the marines of today which influenced their fall, but educated today, they would be perfect.

 

The Word Bearers, for example would be the poster child of the Ministorum, the Death Guard would be the perfect horde-breakers, The Emperor's Children where the model Astartes, just imaigine what the Alpha Legion could do to the Tau.

[Nicili]

Hmm, this is starting to make me think that the rule from the DIY Chapter Creation thread

There

[Librarian- Melechor]

and the BA and the SW where ridden with mutations.

They were? I did not know about this!

As for the topic, I think it's possible, with a rogue inquisitor or magos on the scene. But actually being planned, eh, not sure about that.

[ixupi]

Hmm, this is starting to make me think that the rule from the DIY Chapter Creation thread

There

[Severus6]

To be quite honest it is more than feasible. As is already been mentioned both "the Cursed" and "the Dark" Foundings could easily fall into this genre. Several Chapters already claim not to know their Primarch, most notably the Grey Knights and the Blood Ravens. Now granted the arguement could be made that the GK are of a different stock, possibly the Emp. himself and the BR have a genuine feel of mixed parentage but you just dont know. I doubt an Inquisitor would be able to bend to his will those that guard the precious genseed or coerce a high level Tech Magos to do his dirty work unless there was something in it for him/her. However I could conceivably see where the need or the authorization from the High Lords themselves overturned past protocols and opened the gateway for experimentation or the creation of new chapters. What would it matter if they knew who their Primarch was? The chapter could be told that it did not matter or simply lie and say it was another primarch. At that point a small white lie about the fraternal background of a chapter would hardly be worth worrying about. As long as they were loyal, capable, and effective I dont believe the powers that be would care. Both heritage or heresy at this point are simply a matter of opinion. Running along the same lines as radical and puritan Inquisitors. Now if the plan/plot failed or the risk of discovery would cause an issue within the hallowed halls of Terra or the cavernous reaches of Mars that may be another story and a whole new sub-set of problems.

 

Severus6

[Dasleah]

Hmmm. Can anyone quote to me the specifics of the High Lords creating a Chapter? I'm thinking that the process must be a unanimous vote, but if not then you're open to all sorts of things. Differing Imperial organisations would have tremendous poltitical influence over other departments. A coup or blockade by the Fabricator-General on certain worlds or trades would exert enough pressure on the High Lords to pretty much let him get away with anything. A particulary pressured Warmaster, with perhaps backing of the Navigator Houses, would certainly raise enough concern to do nearly anything.

I think the problem here is that we're all assuming that the High Lords make their decisions on what to do based solely on Imperial Dogma. The Ecclesiarch, whilst powerful, doesn't command all positions on the High Council. Sometimes the needs outweigh the wants. It is, afterall, a government of governments. They know what they should do, but that doesn't meant they do it <_<

 

I'm always in two minds about using Tratior Geneseed in Loyalist Chapters. Yes, it could be done, but does it really need to? Does it really add that much pathos to the Chapter? The High Lords could decide to break open a time-statis seal (sure, just open a container that effectively exists outside of the time-space continuim, that doesn't sound too hard) on a couple of containers, give the Inquisition a heads up and let the Mechanicus do their thang.

One of the main reasons why they don't do it, as I see, is purely propoganda issues. Those who actually know about Chaos and the Heresy are few and far between, but those that do are usually in positions of relative local, segmentum, or galatic power. By not using the Traitor gene-seed, it sends out the message that those who turned to Chaos, regardless of the amount and intent of worship, were so utterly doomed and corrupted that for all eternity their very (genetic) essence was damned. The very core of their being was tainted, forever. Of course, you could also flip the whole 'give them a chance for redepemtion' card, and create a Chapter that way.

Traitor geneseed is pure, undoubtadley. And perhaps even more pure, given the fact that a few Traitor Primarches are still around. Although largely Daemonic now, a few strands of DNA harvested from them could still contain enough salvagable material to constantly provide pure geneseed material.

 

Just some thoughts.

[the_raptor]

Traitor geneseed is pure, undoubtadley.

 

This is the key. It has been in stasis since the Heresy, and probably very good stasis fields considering when it was built and the fact that the AM looks after it (Even the Space Wolves can manage a near perfect stasis field to keep Bjorn the Fell Handed alive). All other geneseed AFAIK has been through hundreds of generations of marines and 10k years. I could very well see the AM dipping into the traitor geneseed because it hasn't had 10k years of mutation.

 

I think it should only be hinted at, but could give the chapter motivations similar to the Dark Angels.