Chapter Traits

[Master Jeridian]

First of all I appreciate the Chapter Traits (and Doctrines) and how they allow me to customise my armies legally.

 

But, from a creativity standpoint, have the Chapter Traits improved the concept of the DIY Chapter or dumbed it down?

 

Before the Traits DIY Chapters where relatively rare, they where works of time, commitment and imagination- most won't remember my numerous attempts at a Scorpion Commando unit (ranging from infiltrating artificer armoured veterans with sniper rifles, to infiltrating Marines with bolt carbines).

 

The emphasis was on developing an original, plausible (within 40k) background.

 

With the Chapter Traits I've noticed a huge upsurge in DIY Chapters but merely to use Chapter Traits as an additional army list option to be refined and twisted to tournament perfection.

Most of these DIY Chapter players can tell me what traits they have (inevitably Cleanse & Purify and We Stand Alone) but very few can even tell me what their Chapter is called.

 

Don't get me wrong- I know these people played 40k before the traits, but they where shoe-horned into the Ultramarines or other official Chapters where their complete lack of original thought was accepted, even encouraged.

 

Am I just bitter at the rise of the tournament scene to replace the 'guys in the garage' scene?

Is standardisation of creativity an oxymoron? Is it just too easy to pick and mix pre-written fluff rather than create your own?

[Brother Tyler]

The huge advantage of the traits system is that it gives players a legal way to create their own variant army list. If a player needs something legal, such as in a tournament setting or with other players who aren't receptive to homegrown rules, then the traits are the way to go.

 

An advantage of the traits system from a balance perspective is that they are a fairly elegant set of rules. They're not perfect, but they offer players a little room to maneuver.

 

A big disadvantage of the trait system is that it isn't quite as flexible as it could be. There are a lot of advantages that are duplicated. GW could have, instead, created more advantages to allow players a little more creativity (one of the aims of the TCLP is to create more advantages to replace duplications on the chart). The converse of this fact is that the limited number of traits are pretty balanced.

 

Another disadvantage of the traits is that most of the minor drawbacks can be used in one army list or another as a non-disadvantage. A player that doesn't use any allies can take the appropriate trait. One that doesn't use any infiltrators can take another. These traits might have no discernible effect on the army in question.

 

A really big disadvantage is that some unscrupulous players might change traits from game to game as a manner of getting the most advantage. Some will do this in a more enlightened manner - changing traits in order to find a combination that suits them. Others use the flexibility of the traits in order to get the most advantage.

 

Are these problems really with the traits system or are they problems with the ways players implement them?

 

While there are a few ways in which (I feel) the traits system can be impoved, generally through expanding the choices available, I'd say that the majority of the problems are with the players and those who use the traits to game the system.

 

There's nothing stopping a player from developing their own homegrown rules, though. If a player has gaming buddies who are willing to allow him to use those homegrown rules, more power to him.

 

The downside to a large forum like this is that the focus of discussions tends towards the legally acceptable methods of playing. It's really hard for a player in California to tell one in Burma that his homegrown rules are good when the Burmese player's buddies don't want to hear it. The legal rules are a common denominator that are easy to quantify and accept.

 

Still, the amount of creativity players put into this game shouldn't be "shoehorned" by the rules. After all, even the rulebook talks about allowing players to change the rules as they see fit. I bet that if you were to get involved with a tight gaming group that didn't constrain itself to tourney-legal play, you'd find an outlet for allowing more homegrown stuff through. The Bolter & Chainsword isn't a great place for this kind of stuff simply due to the nature of the board. There are some things that will move us towards more homegrown rules being discussed (you'll see this soon), but the tourney focus of the board will never change. That's just one of the downsides of the major Internet forums.

 

I think the traits were a huge step in the right direction. They are much more elegant than an alternative idea I came up with - probably much more balanced. If you're interested in "improving" the traits rules, though, please participate in the Traits/Chapters of Legend Project currently being conducted in the Index Astartes forum, but soon to move. We're not quite at the trait fixing stage yet, but will get there soon.

[space wolf]

I agree with Bro T, the traits are a great idea. problem is they needed to come up with more, for a better variety, and make the drawbacks more hindering...personally i would have liked it if they didnt copy everything that made the spacewolves good :D

[ironloki]

Well you can see that many have gone DIY to simply use their own traits. While some have spent a lot of time and effort others have simply wanted to use Traits and have everyone else name and create their chapter. If you notice a while back many people were posting army lists here in Liber with little or no fluff ;) . That shows people were more interested in the rules than the fluff

 

So I think its double edged. On the one hand it has allowed those dedicated to DIY to give themselves that special spark while others have been drawn in simply for traits. If thats a good or bad thing depends on the person. I have never really used traits but have been drawn recently to try out purity above all and try and fit that into my fluff. This is bad in a way as I think that rules should never take over fluff but I do have a loophole which I can use and wont it distort my fluff, hopefully it will enhance it.

 

So rules have enchanced it for those dedicated to DIY chapters while a lot have been drawn in by the rules and want people to provide some justification for using them. The rules can provide inspiration i.e. - "ooo a chapter who is paranoid about its geneseed and lots of Apothecaies would be cool" or "Wow a techmarine commander would be nice for a Adeptus Mechanicus army" but I think people are more interested in the rules than the fluff sadly.

 

(Hope that makes sense as my eyes are sore ^_^ )

[Bernhard Terroristos]

Greetings,

 

Just my insight into this. I have not been able to read this full post since my comp is down at home, and I have been using the school computers. After having read thouroughly I will make my assesment. I basically am making my homegrown rules for my DIY chapter. I find the chapter traits although a very nice addition are too constricting for my overall theme. I have been researching for quite a while on how I should create my chapter based on homegrown rules, and I have found the compilation list by Brother Tyler (who I know his real name, lol, ;) ) a very excellent resource. Darn the bell rung, more later. Cya!!! Also I have work and alot of homework this weeked, so it may be a wait. Sry

 

Bernhard Terroristos

[Master Jeridian]

Reasonable and considered responses, thanks.

 

I agree that people are the one's that abuse and distort rules, and I loathe to be the one saying 'It's GW fault for making the rules breakable, I had no choice' (akin to 'I vas only following ordars'), but it seems this attitude of high-level sport first, fun game second is far more prevelant than a few years ago.

 

The sheer number of Chapters that seem to Stand Alone is testament that the Chapter Traits are victim to this change in policy, let's face it- that is not a disadvantage. Oh, you only get your entire army list, such a shame.

 

 

Anyway, I'm more concerned that creativity is weakening because of pick'n'mix Traits and the move towards tournament mentality.

Before Chapter Traits- a DIY Chapter meant posting 'Can I have Female SM's?' posts and other ideas, gathering huge volumes of background on 40k and truly coming up with an original idea. It required effort.

 

Now it seems simply picking the Traits is the most people go into delving into their Chapter's background beyond 'We came to win the tournament!'

 

I like the Chapter Traits, and use them, but they seemed to have replaced original thought rather than complimented it.

[Ferrata]

See, everything they introduce will have a good and a bad side. The good side is the people who like to make detailed chapters will be able to show their chapter on the Table-top better,thus feeling better about all their fluff. The bad side is that some people see traits first, fluff later (if that). But who cares if they are people who just have "The Imperial Handbags" Traits Take the Fight to Them and We Stand Alone. I probably take "cheap" disadvantages which don't effect my choices, but have made other self-impossed disadvantages (such as no Termies or no AV over Land Speeders)

 

Ferrata

[JamesI]

I like traits. Taking traits out of the marine codex (and not creating rules for the Salamanders, Imperial Fists, White Scars et al) would require players to go Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Templars to do something different.

[Librarian- Melechor]

I have to say, I like the fact that the traits are not too empowering/weakening, but I do feel that like others who have posted in this thread, that the rules tend to lessen creativity. However, most DIY chapters that make it onto the battlefield would not be here today otherwise, so we must abide with the rules.... for now. ^_^

[ironloki]

The sheer number of Chapters that seem to Stand Alone is testament that the Chapter Traits are victim to this change in policy, let's face it- that is not a disadvantage. Oh, you only get your entire army list, such a shame.

 

Biggest mistake GW has made in a while ^_^ . This can easily be represented with traits such as in your fluff.

 

The thing is GW would rather focus on people spending money or armies and tournaments as Fluff is free and you can write pages upon pages, spend years developing it and never buy a single GW product or model :D

 

People see traits they like and know that their Ultramarines cannot have them. So they give them black heads, give them a name and voila instant success!

 

As for creativity im not sure. I think it may get a lot more people thinking about fluff and it is making more DIY chapters widespread which is true fluff wise as there are thousands of chapters out there. I think its like anything that becomes "mass" produced. Everyone swoops down to do a DIY chapter but only the dedicated hang around.

 

Those who spend time on their Fluff may have increased I suspect and where initially hooked in by the traits. There is however a large amount of people who want only.

-Name

-Colour

-Traits

 

But then again this was true for people who wanted to use BA rules or DA rules before the creation of the traits. I dont know its its tournament based but it is based on "creating the best list" idea.

[space wolf]

personally i dont think it hampers creativity at all. The people who are creative, will find creative ways to represent the traits that they have taken, where before they may have come up with their own rules, they dont need to now, but creatively justify them.

 

The people who aren't creative, will just take the traits, and basically come up with some BS(not ballistic skill ;) ) justification for them, where as before, they would have just played ultramarines...they dont kill creativity, it just seems that way, because more people are doing DIY than before.