Sons of Lausus - I think it's a first

[Gothical]

Ok, in College, I take Classical Civilisation - and we are studying the Aeneid (translated by David West).

 

We have just done Book 10, and this DIY chapter is based on a section from this book.

 

for reference, it is lines 790-833.

 

 

For those of you who don't know the story (and I am willing to be it is a fair few), I shall include a brief summary - laymans terms, naturally (being one myself ^_^ ):

 

Aeneas (Trojan hero) has wounded some guy.

 

The guy's kid (about 16 years of age) jumps in to protect him while he escapes.

 

The kid has (essentially) leather armour, a small shield and a short sword.

 

Aeneas has gold and bronze armour, big sword and so forth, made by the God of War.

 

the Kid refuses to back down, so devout is his love for his father - and is easily killed.

 

Aeneas realises the futility, and honours the kid.

 

The Kid's father swaers to get revenge, or die trying. And dies.

 

Its essentailly about the futility of war, but also shows that honour and love of the father overcomes all, etc.

 

Now, the relevance of this -

 

I thought that this makes a fitting basis for a Space Marine chapter, some scout/neophyte jumps into a battle between his (wounded) captain and some big, bad guy. And dies, but allows the Captain to live. The guy's squad splinter off, and a sub-chapter is founded in Lausus' honour.

 

Trouble is, trying to find a way to represent it as a Space Marine chapter. I have come up with some ideas, but would greatly appreciate some help:

 

Themes:

 

Swords and combat-shields.

Honour and bravery (brave to the point of being foolish)

Heroic fighters

 

Traits:

 

+ No Mercy, No Respite

+ Not too sure - either "trust your battle brothers" or "uphold the honour of the Emperor"

 

- Aspire to Glory

-Faithful unto Death

 

I was also thinking (and this is now getting into dodgy ground) that PERHAPS it could be a CHAPTER LEGEND that a scout, Lausus jumps in to the fight between Luther and the Lion, and dying, hence Lion escapes and Luther's mind goes (VERY risky, but no one knows what really happens, right?) Or even between a bog-standard Commander and Semi-Evil guy (or even an Eldar?). Had also considered between Primarch + Chaos Primarch / Snagiunus and Emperor - but thought that was TOO fan-flick, and out-there to be faintly believable.

 

Like I said, I do really need help (and have read the hint-sheet stickied here. It helped, a little)

 

Either way, it is a passage that really struck me. I am thinking of hard-fighting Marines, heroic characters, and so forth. Love of the Emperor/Lausus' sacrifice. Fierce hand-to-hnad (but not totally assault).

 

Geneseed wise, I am thinking of either Dark Angels (late founding) or Ultra Marines. PERHPAS use some of Lausus' gene - so he is a "semi-primarch" - just a bog-standard Scout, but his sense of honour and love (of his father = Primarch/Emperor) is transferred to the chapter.

 

Oh, that's the other thing:

 

I need a situation where Lausus' sacrifice is impressive, but futile, as the bloke he saves gets killed off later.

 

Its one heck of a hard thing to sort out, and I am struggling, so I thought I would let you guys into the loop, to see ifyou could help.

 

Cheers if anyone can.

 

Oh, and have a cookie if you made sense of any of this!

 

I am also struggling with a colour scheme - its going to depend on the parent chapter, but possible quartered scheme, or chapter arms + legs + head, but red torso (to signify the wound).

[Librarian- Melechor]

So a chapter made in a scout's honor? I'm not quite sure if it would be like this, but I mean, it's really your ideas. The part about the primarch/luther is a little iffy, I'm not sure it's smart to dabble in "popular" fluff like that. But other than that, I like the sound of your chapter so far, so try and flesh it out into a full chapter, historty, organization, combat doctrine ect. Keep it up! ^_^

[Gree]

Excellent Idea, now let me help you with a bit of obscure fluff, In Warriors of Ultramar, Robute Gulliman

[Gothical]

Flipping heck, those were quick.

 

@ Librarian-Melachor

 

Its more based on the sacrifice he made to save soem important(ish) guy. Not a mojor chapter, but more of a band of people formed to honour his sacrifice.

 

I know the whole Lion/Luther thing is VERY iffy, and The Night Lords Hero's suggestion is probably a lot better, but perhaps, if, IF I do the Lion route (this is still in the planning stage after all), and I word it as "chapter legend" - is it (slightly) more feasable - no one is really sure what happened after all, and his actions wouldn't change the outcome of anything established - Lion wounded/missing, Luther's mind broken, gets him imprisoned.

 

 

Cheers for the support, and the input.

 

I haven't read "Warriors of Ultramar" - but I will have to look into it. Could help out a litte.

 

Ps, is this a first (or at least, for the baord) - an army based on a piece of Classical Literature?

[Ferrata]

I can see what your going for, but I feel that several of your idea's are too against the grain of most of the GW fluff. I feel like your missing the greatest 40k event of a Son giving up his life in a battle he knew he would lose to save his father, Sanguious (or how ever you spell his name) vs Horus. Now, if the BA gene-seed does contain mental-memories of the battle, what if the chapter took that view on the battle instead of the usual one.

 

Ferrata

[Gothical]

I had considered the Blood Angel route, as the Black Rage and so forth would represent the Furor - "battle rage" that warrriors seem to obtain in the middle of a fight.

 

BUT - the Blood Angel rules don't run with me. And they are rumoured to be re-worked soon. And I didn't want to use such an important fugire as Sanguinius (or however it is spelt), but rather someone young, to highlight the futility/graveness of the sacrifice.

 

Could you please explain how much of my idea goes against the GW established fluff?

 

The Lion/Luther thing is only a preliminary idea to show the sort of thing I am aiming for.

 

And, down the sacrifice route, I was aiming for a person severely under-equipped taking on a mighty hero - futile, but in the love for his father, Lausus holds firm (but dies).

 

Oh, Mods - would I be allowed to quote (about 100 lines) from said book, if I referenced and gave full credit clearly noted? I am thinking no, given IP and Copyrightlaws, but I know little about that, which is why I gave a summary, but if I was allowed such a large quote, it may make things much easier for the other members.

[Ferrata]

Using the BA-gene-seed does not need the use of the BA-Codex, thread, though if you want something unique, maybe go with what was mentioned ealier.

 

Scout's do not have gene-seed unless they are slightly older scouts (I think it takes about 5 years for the throat one to mature). It would also have a high failure rate from such a small start. Also, squads just don't leave a chapter to form a chapter, the HLoT order trainers from a chapter and the chapter sends who they want.

 

Ferrata

[Darrell]

Depending on the book, you should have no problems with IP or Copyright restrictions, as a lot of books from classic literature (Which is what this sounds like) are pretty much public domain anyway. No one owns the Illiad or the Odyssey, for example. Those kinds of work (And even more recent works like the original Dracula novel) are public domain, and you're free to quote them, copy/paste them, distribute them on the internet, whatever you want. But you should make sure the work is public domain first; the IP and Copyright restriction applies to things like Warhammer 40K material that they still own and sell, as freely distributing those would mean a loss of profits and that is bad.

 

Now, I'm not the best with coming up with fluff for Chapters (Not the worst either, but I'm probably close), but I'll see what I can throw out to help. These ideas may or may not come in any particular order, I'm just throwing things out as they come.

 

- You want someone young sacrificing themselves for someone more powerful in a way that is tragic and heroic, yet ultimately futile as the man he saves dies. How do you want that scene to go? The scout to step in, take the blow, the hero lives on and dies later? The hero takes a blow, is dying, but the scout gives his life to give the hero a chance to live, but all for naught as he bleeds out on the field of battle? Do you imagine your Chapter as being the type to keep Scouts in a seperate group, as in the Scout would come charging in from another part of the field to help? Or is it like the Black Templars with their Initiaties/Neophytes, and the scout would be in the unit with his hero?

 

- Ferrata brings up a good point, very rarely does a part of a Chapter break off to go do their own thing. However, it is generally agreed upon that it does happen that a part of a Chapter is sent to train and guide a new Chapter when it is founded. Perhaps a squad of the Chapter where the legend originally came from trains a new Chapter, and either stays (It is rare but has been known to happen) or the legend inspires the new Chapter so much they take the legend to heart and it becomes a part of them after the trainers depart to rejoin their original Battle Brothers.

 

- I would avoid linking famous characters into this story. If you want futility of war as a theme, then drum up the theme of both of these men being lost in the tumbles of history. These men died for a universe which, in the end, barely remembers they existed, let alone who they were or what they lived and died for. Avoid Primarchs and famous Chapter Masters, and try to stick to vague names instead.

 

- This is just a side note, but if you want to really play up the hero dying after the brave scout gave his life, you may want to consider a sniper round. Snipers are often associated with cowardice and cold-blooded murder and inescapable death--no matter where you hide, you're always in his scope. Having a brave hero die in such a manner would also play up the theme I think you're going for (Especially if it happened, say, after the hero took off his helmet to acknowledge the young scout's sacrifice). Another way would be something like the hero stepping on a mine, or a plasma weapon overheating. These kinds of things also play up that kind of futility, since there's no human emotion behind the death, and doesn't really offer a kind of heroic last stand. Just BOOM dead.

[space wolf]

I have read the Aeneid, great book by the way, so maybe I can help you out.

 

The Aeneid was written by virgil for primarilly two reasons in my opinion. First it was to glorify augustus (as there are many subtle references of the Julian line (ie caesar and augustus) being the line of aeneas. 2nd it was kind of a way to stick it to the greeks, and justify Rome's conquest of it. (greece sacks troy->aeneas the trojan escapes->after many adventures settles in italia->starts line of decendents that lead to romulus and remus->eventually leads to caesar and augustus-> thus rome is only getting greece back for sacking its ancestors.)

 

personally I would focus on the later books of the Aeneid, such as the final battle between aeneis and Turnus...I'm feeling this chapter should have a very proto-roman feel (ie give the models a little roman flair without getting them too much like the ultramarines, add in a little greek to make them feel more trojan) maybe give them the "never retreat"(or whatever it is) trait to symbolize the Roman virtues of tenacity. (for more on this line of thinking, check out the Roman legend of Horatius Cocles and the Etruscans, good reading ;) ) There is an awful lot you could focus on, im just not sure if your original idea would work...it does have merit, but i dont see a squad splintering off to form a chapter, just doesnt happen.

[Commissar Molotov]

I think the general consensus is that forming a chapter in honour of a scout is a bit dodgy. You could have two immediate options. Sanguinius died for the Emperor. You could honour Sanguinius' sacrifice. It's said that Sanguinius had foreseen his potential death, but still chose to die when Horus offered him the chance to stand beside him.

 

The other option is to focus on the Emperor's sacrifice for humanity. Rather than one person sacrificing himself to save one person, you have the greatest person alive sacrificing themselves for all people. A chapter that is totally dedicated around that sacrifice could be interesting.

 

Then there's the stories of the Imperial Fist terminator that burst onto the bridge of Horus' battle-barge; Horus killed him near-instantly, allowing the Emperor time to recover and kill Horus.

 

Just some thoughts. Make your chapter's inspiration grander in scale, and I think you're onto a real winner.

[Gothical]

Wow, lots of replies, thank you all for your input. Will try to give some feedback here:

 

1. I was thinking of a Scout in his final few years/months as a scout. Lausus was 16 (which in those days meant his was just about to become a man, and a warrior).

 

2. I know that normally Squads don't leave a chapter to form another, but Ididn't mean what I wrote to sound like that. The "chapter" would be more of something in honour of Lausus. As an older scout, his implants would almost be mature, thus I guess (but I am no apothecary ;) ) that they COULD be taken. The "Chapter" would be formed at the original Chapter Master's decree (but think of it more of company sized than full chapter). Basically, I was thinking of a "chapter" at company sized. It plays a minor part in history, but epitomises the Space Marines sense of honour, duty and sacrifice.

 

I see this as more reasonable than a Chapter being "Lost in the warp" for example. And (unfortunately for me) if they used Lausus' genes, it would technically make him a primarch (in the sense that he would be the "father" of that company/chapter thing). However, it would still have the parent chapter's gene seed, so the Primarch would still be Guilliman/Dorn/Whatever.

 

3. What essentially happens is that Lausus' father is wounded, Lausus' sacrifice gives him time to escape. He then later is killed by Aeneas, when looking for revenge/noble death (he realises that his son died to save him). I AM thinking of the more minor character approach, say a Chapter Master of on of the Ultramarine's successors faces off against a traitor pirmarch or something. The point is that Aeneas is a big, "super-warrior", and Lausus is a kid. his father is also just a "normal" (but good) warrior - ie they stood very little chance, but went for it anyway.

 

4. I was thinking that perhaps a squad from the "parent" successor chapter trains up this small Chapter (small as the gene seed is not that "stable" - being from a scout - and the qualities this Chapter looks for mean that many die in training?)

 

5. This is based on the later Aeneid books, particularly centred around Book 10 ("Pallas and Mezentius"). I have not read books 11 or 12 yet, so please bear with my ignorance of those. for line reference of the specific section I am tihnking of, it is lines 790 - 833 (approximately). I am going to go for a somewhat Greek-Roman theme, but also including the qualities of Lausus' personailty (as seen in aforementioned section).

 

6. I have not located a suitable "sacrifice story" - all the ones I ahve found are usually well documented (if I were to use famous characters, it would HAVE to be in an obscure event that very little is known about, to give ANY credibility to such an idea). Sangiunius = too overused, IMO (the Blood Angels are about that sacrifice). Terminator - too well equipped. The point is Lausus had a leather jacket and small shield, Aeneas had hulking Bronze and gold armour - no where near a fair fight.

 

7. It would help if I could post the section, but from the front ccover of thebook (even though it is an Epic, much alike Homer's Illiad) it appears the translation is held in copyright by the author. Trying to see if I can contact him to get permission to use the section. Or, I could write it in the original Latin - but I shouldn't imagine it would help many people here!

 

As I said, this is a VERY hard theory behind a "Chapter" - which is why I need your help, and appreciate so much input. Please bear with me, as it is fairly complex,and it would greatly help people know where I was coming from if I were able to post the section from the book.

[Ferrata]

The "Chapter" would be formed at the original Chapter Master's decree (but think of it more of company sized than full chapter). Basically, I was thinking of a "chapter" at company sized. It plays a minor part in history, but epitomises the Space Marines sense of honour, duty and sacrifice.

Chapter Master's dont make Chapters, they can't decree the creation of a Space Marine Chapter. Why would the Imperium make a small chapter out of one scouts' geneseed when they have stocks of other seed which they could make a full chapter? The Terminator vs Horus thing is very similar to the story, as in compnarison the Terminator was under equipped, Horus had the power of Chaos behind him, was a Primarch so was very very powerful.

 

Personally, I think your trying to stick too much to the small details of the story, which will not convert over to 40k. Try looking at the feeling of the story, and translate that. From what you've said about the story it is basically this "Small Person fights Big Person in a battle they know they will lose to save a Person". Why couldnt this be a squad? Maybe 5/6 Marines recieving the charge of a massive Ork Waaagh!, which they will be dragged down by and killed, allowing their brothers/citizens to escape the planet. Same feel, fits better. The chapter then could change its appearence/name for the new feel.

 

Ferrata

[Gothical]

Hm, good idea.

 

1. I am still working on the reasons WHY the chapter would be created- I only thought of this idea...25 hours ago from now. I am also looking through many old White Dwarfs for snippets of history,doctrineand and so forth.

 

2. The Squad idea may work, but I wanted something even more desperate. If I took that route, perhaps the Squad Sergeant is Lausus how dies at the hands of a Warboss? Or, looking at examples from history, something like Chaplain Xavier - dies holding off the Dark Eldar, allowing the company to escape (however, this is not "futile".

 

3. The point is that when the Lausus kid is killed, the foe, Aeneas, honours the body/spirit. The Orks wouldn't do this, however the Eldar, or more Space Marines might. I was thinking, maybe, a chapter involved in the Badab War - perhaps the Lamenters. If it were something from the Lamenters/Minotaur battle, would THAT be credible?

 

I know that the story does have to be adapted somewhat - its hard to turn Classical works into 40K settings, but I will try most things. for now, I am going to try to make something credible out of 1 guy (maybe a newly-trained SM, as opposed to a scout?) - but if that REALLY doesn't work, then I will go down the Squad route.

 

Cheers for the help/criticism - its allowing me to sort out what works and doesn't, and what shouldbe avoided and what is slightly credible (with enough justification). just please don't get annoyed at me, and bear with me - its a fledgling idea, that is tricky to put into 40K settings and reasoning. But, with input, I am sure something can be made of it!

[space wolf]

It would help if I could post the section, but from the front ccover of thebook (even though it is an Epic, much alike Homer's Illiad) it appears the translation is held in copyright by the author. Trying to see if I can contact him to get permission to use the section. Or, I could write it in the original Latin - but I shouldn't imagine it would help many people here

 

I wouldnt bother, the translator guy has about as much right to it as you do...it is a classical piece of fiction, if anyone has a claim, its virgil, and he's been dead for about 2000 years...you will not be stepping on anyone's toes .

[Gothical]

Ok, this is the section that gave me the inspiration for the theme behind the army:

 

"Seeing Mezentius in distress and Aeneas bearing down on him in hot fury, Lausus moaned bitterly for the father whom he loved and the tears rolled down his face. Now, Lausus, I shall tell of your cruel death and glorious deeds in the hope that the distance of time may lead men to believe your great expolit. Never will it be my wish to be silent about you, Lausus - you are a warrior who does not deserve to be forgotten. Mezentius was falling back, defenceless and encumbered, dragging his enemy's spear behind him, stuck in his shield, when young Lausus leapt forward and threw himself between them. Just as Aeneas was standing to his full height and raising his arm to strike, he came in beneath the sword blade, blocking Aeneas and checking his advance. Lausus' comerades raised a great shout and supported him with by bombarding Aeneas and harrassing him with their missiles from long range, till the father could withdraw protected by the shield of the son. Aeneas, enraged, kept under cover. Just as when the clouds descend in a sudden storm of hail, and all the ploughmen and all the workers in the fields scatter across the open ground and the traveller finds some sure fortress to in under a river bank or the arch of some high-vaulted rock till the rain stops falling on the earth, so that they can continue to do the work of the day when the sunshine is restored - just so Aeneas, overwhelmed by missiles from all sides, weathered the storm of war till the last roll of its thunder, and then it was Lausus he challenged, and Lausus he threatened: "Whay are you in such haste to die? Why do you take on tasks beyond your strength? Youare too rash. Your love for your father is decieving you." But Lausus was in full cry and his madness knew no check. At this the anger rose even higher in the heart of the leader of the Trojans and the Fates gathered up the last threads for Lausus. Aeneas drove his mighty sword through the middle of the young man's body, burying it to the hilt, the point going straight through the light shield, no proper armour to match the threats he had uttered. It pierced, too, the tunic his mother had woven for him with a soft thread of gold and filled the folds of it with blood. Then did his life leave his body and go in sorrow through the air to join the shades.

But when Aeneas, son of Anchises, saw the dying face and features, the face strangely white, he groaned from his heart in pity and held out his hand, as there came into his mind the thought of his own devoted love for his father, and he said: "What will the devout Aeneas now give to match such merit? What gift can he give that will be worthy of a heart like yours? Take your armour, that gave you so much pleasure. Now I return you to the shades and the ashes of your ancestors, if that is any comfort for you. In your misfortune you will have one consolation for your cruel death, that you fell by the hand of the great Aeneas." At this he turned on Lausus' comerades, railing at them as they hung back, while he lifted Lausus off the ground where he was soiling his carefully tended hair with blood."

 

From The Aeneid, translated by David West, Penguin Classics.

 

Hopefully this will help you to see where I am coming from for the theme behind the army.

 

 

I need to get the theme of this army nailed down (yes, its still early, I know that). Do I take lots of scouts, or a few? Combat or shooting/combat mix?

 

I am also considering whether to use Trait, Blood Angel or Black Templar rules - I can see the benefit of all (I am thinking BA are TOO "in there", and that Templars are TOO knightly) - people's thoughts? Perhaps even Dark Angel rules - Stubborn could be a nice representation of tenacity?

[Race Bannon]

You could use BT rules but change the names so that they are not so ... "knightly". Same with DA (as you have done). It could work it just depends on what *you* want. The DA is more different in organization. "Stubborn" is just a nicky-neat trait.

 

I have enoyed reading the progression of ideas though. This is an example of how a good DIY can be made :tu"