Late Foundings - 22th onwards

[Rune Priest Gribnoor]

Im attempting to write up a detailed IA for my DIY chapter and I hit a area of hinderance. I wanted my chapter to be young, real young, and the mosts recent founding, only one which a date is given for only occured a little under 300 years ago by imperial time.

 

The problem is that the army list I have composed for them has terminators and dreadnoughts. My problem I am facing is the concept that a young chapter would not have such rare armours and relics (most chapter would consider dreadnoughts relics I suppose) going by information I have read, as such things can take centuries for a chapter to obtain. Yet I still my chapter to be young.

 

My question is, would you guys (im asking for YOUR honest opinion of whether it sounds believeable, this is very important to me) see a young chapter from a very late founding (22th onwards maybe...) pausable to have obtained termie armour and dreadnoughts when they have only been round for less then a century.

 

Furthermore, what types of reason could I use to support my chapters use of such equipment?

Like how they obtained it and why?

 

I know it might seem small, but it is a important note I want to make reference of in my IA as I do want to use dreads and termies.

 

Also, how do chapter obtain termies and dreads, I dont suppose their are "donated" to the chapter by others, as they are valuable. Are they made by forge worlds? If so, just mars or other forge worlds too you think?

 

Thanks in advance, little fill-ins like these really make good IA to great ones.

[Dasleah]

Well, the most recent Founding was the 26th, if I recall, so if you want a really young Chapter, you might want to consider choosing that Founding.

Tactical Dreadnaught Armour is one of those things that can be constructed, but you'll find that each one is treated as a hallowed relic of sorts. I think I have read instances where the primogenitor Chapter has passed on Termi suits to new Chapters, but nothing in great numbers (like, if they're feeling real generous, maybe a squad of five) The Chapter could requisition the Cult Mechanicus to create them a few, in addition to the few I'm sure they give them upon conception, but the apparent time-frame to create a Termi suit is quite long (as compared to other armaments) So, a young Chapter would have themselves a few suits to pimp around in, but not many. Mainly reserved for Captains, Chapter Masters, etcetera, I'd say.

And as for Dreads, I think they'd be easier to produce than Termi suits (no need for all that complicated and fiddly miniturisation (sp) ) but they'd have less numbers. A Dread is a undying legend of the Chapter, preserved for near all eternity within the unfeeling shell of ceramite and adamantium. So, if your Chapter has themselves a quite few noble matyrs and whatnot, then you could have them. You'd only have about 5-12 Dreads, in total, over the course of the Chapter history. When a Dread is destroyed, it's simply rebuilt and intered with a new pilot, so you may have one Pax Imperialis from day dot, but have a few pilots that have used it.

The Imperium has been known to donate pieces of equipment to Chapters after preforming deeds of daring, so any spare suits (most likely reocovered suits from other Chapters that have been 'lost', like through irrecoverable battle losses, etc) could be thrown your way.

[Commissar Molotov]

Dasleah's correct. Of course there is the appropriate trait in Codex: Space Marines, 'Aspire to Glory', that you can use to represent the relative youth of your chapter. Your chapter can have dreadnoughts and terminators, but perhaps not in any great number.

[Rune Priest Gribnoor]

Thanks.

 

Well, what I intended on doing was use the 26th founding and creating history that they have been heavily involved with the machine cult and have obtained terminator and dreadnought suits abnormally soon for a young chapter, I think that may work. They are kind of going to have operated and crusaded more centrally in the imperium before been presented a world on the eastern fringers (which is subsequently destoryed by tyrannids and chapter half devastated, but thats still a work in progress ;) ), so they will have come in contact with plenty of forge worlds and high-tech worlds. As such, I think I'll make it that they were rewarded with dreadnought suits and have had aquired a few termie suits from their very founding. Unusual, but I think it will add to their fluff and make them more characterful.

 

Opinions?

[Brother-chaplain Astador]

Well my timeline is a little hazy....but, the Great Crusade lasted 200 years, and at the end of that I beleive there were Terminator suits aand dreadnought aplenty, ALTHOUGH I am sure this was a greater more fruitful age of production for the imperium....I think its still very plausable for your chapter to have Terminator suits, and a low number of Dreadnoughts...

 

hope this helped

 

--BCA--

[Rymeer]

I think I'll weigh in on this topic as well. I see no problems with your chapter having termie suits and dreads. Especially since from your statements you've got the two traits that would allow such. I think the traits are: 'scions of mars' and 'heed the wisdom of the ancients'.

 

If I'm right, your chapter, though relatively new for a SM chapter, would have close ties with the Mechanicus. This should be reflected in your background when you write it. Also, keep in mind that such traits for your chapter would make them pretty much a DIY version of DeathWing or Iron Hands. You're going to have to work to keep your ideas separate from their influence (again I suggest close ties with, or perhaps a chapter-debt to, the Adeptus Mechanicus).

 

Even though your chapter is relatively new, you would have venerable brother dreadnoughts. Even 'new' chapters lose heroes and inter them in dreadnoughts. My own DIY chapter has it's first Chapter Master in a Dreadnought chassis, even though the Chapter is relatively new. Other, lesser heroes, would be saved and interred into dreadnoughts as and when circumstances allowed, thus building up the number of dreads quickly over the first few centuries of the chapter's existance. I say this due to the chapter having the available dreadnought chassis' to put newly fallen heroes into as and when the circumstances of battle occured. Yes, I realize that all your dreadnoughts would be no older than the chapter's founding, but with a newly founded chapter (or relatively newly founded), this should not be a problem.

 

Since both Traits come from the same trait listing, you'd only have to take a minor disadvantage. There are a couple that do not affect game play all that much, and others that affect the chapter more. Your choice.

 

I could be wrong about all this, and I'd hope Commisar Moltov would correct me if I am, but these are my thoughts towards helping you make a better and more interesting chapter.

 

The Holy Great Lion of Terra's Blessings upon Thee,

 

Rymeer

[Severus6]

Good suggestions given by all here. I think that you are on the right track and I see no reason that a young Chapter wouldnt have access to these things. Now I do believe that they wouldnt have a large access to them. Maybe a squad or two. No more than 10-15 of the suits total, including that of specialy designated suits for the upper echelons, CMDRs, CPT's, Chap's, Lib's that sort of thing. Now I disagree with the Dread Armor statement, as I dont believe that young Chapters would have access to many. Possibly one or two but no more than that. Additionally I believe that a Ven Dread would only be attached to a Chapter that has had the armor for a long time. A work around for that arguement is that the Dread was chosen or simply chose to accmpany the young Chapter upon its creation. That I can see,very easily. Maybe its a small thing but I was always under the impression that Dread Armor was much harder to make and maintain, thus the reason it was more precious.

 

Another option for things of that nature would be that the Chapter gained them as "Spoils of War". A young Chapter takes part in bringing a rogue Chapter or company of Space Marines to heel. Upon the completion of such a grueling and in many ways thankless task they could ask for things that they didnt have; Term and Dread Armor would be high on the list. I have written such a thing into my own Chapter history. The Marines Truculent have a large fleet soley based upon the fact that they took part in such an action. Another scenario that might work but would be less frequent is that the Chapter found several suits from a dead Chapter or from another Chapter that is far older. The situation was as follows (I was helping to write the bakground for a friend of mine.) His Chapter found the remains of a large fleet battle. As they were investigating the ship the chapter came across several suits of Term armor and Power armor. Upon closer inspection, several cryo-stasis conainers were found containing geneseed. Long story short, the Chapter was identified, the geneseed returned along with other equipment, and the information as to what happened to the lost company disseminated to the other Chapter. As a gift for the precious geneseed and information the Chapter was given several suits of Term armor. As long asit is feasible, plausible, and is supported by the accepted and current GW background/storyline I see no reason why you couldnt do it. Just a thought, hope it helps.

 

Severus6

[Darrell]

Well, even the most recent founding was, what, 300 years ago according to the current timeline? I would think 300 years would be plenty of time to at least pick up a formidable amount of Tactical Dreadnought Armor and Dreadnought walkers. Especially so if your Chapter has a close relationship to the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

I wouldn't worry about the 22nd foundings through the 25th. The 22nd was about 2,000 or 3,000 years ago, I think? And the 25th was probably over 600 years ago.

 

I think, barring certain circumstances (Like the infamous Ultramarines First Company's last stand on Macragge), you shouldn't really have too much of a problem having Dreadnoughts or Terminator armor. Artifacts, on the other hand, may be a problem. Even the Aspire to Glory trait says you have both types of Dreadnought armor, just not a lot of them, but no artifacts. The armor can come from anywhere, but something with the connection to a Chapter that an artifact has could take millenia to gather up.

[Vodunius]

I wouldn't worry about the 22nd foundings through the 25th. The 22nd was about 2,000 or 3,000 years ago, I think? And the 25th was probably over 600 years ago.

 

the Celestial Lions are noted as being 4,000 years old, thats not far enough to be a 21st founding chapter, so the 22nd would have to be 4,000 at least (if the non-contradicted founding numbers from the Emperors Shield IA are to be believed then it has to be 1 founding per millenia after the Age of Apostasy)

[Dasleah]

I'd actually steer away from using Venerable Dreads. To me, a normal Dread contains the last organic vestiages of a great hero, but a Venerable Dread has a hero inside that's had quite a few centuries of fighting within that Dread, and so would be the more powerful of the two (simply due to the fact that he's used to it) So Chapter that even managed to get a great hero, then have him put in a Dread from day one, wouldn't really be able to call him 'Venerable' for at least 500+ years, and I'd probably even make it past 1000 years to acquire Venereable status.

Many Chapters openly consort with the Cult Mechanicus, as I'm sure the Fabricator-General wouldn't mind the open friendship and support of the Adeptus Astartes behind him. You could install a Forge World within the same system as your homeworld, and make your Marine's allow the Cult to use their homeworld as recruitment into the Knights Legions or Skittari. You'd have to have a pretty strong Cult presence though, so your Chaplains and any visiting Ecclessiarch may feel a bit uncomfortable, but poo-poo to them. But you could pull an Iron Hands and fold the Chapliancy into the Forge, creating a Marine faith directed by the Machine Cult.

[Rune Priest Gribnoor]

Thanks for all this information guys, its been great so far.

 

Actually, Rymeer, my traits have already been choose to represent their knight-theme and nature of preferring to meet the enemy at close range (note, they perfer "close range", as in firefights and then close combat, not "close combat" in general, they dont throw themselves into the enemy with the feverish style of the black templars, they take a rather more controlled approach combating their foe "close quarter" to gain honor)

 

Basically though, I want to use a terminator squad and two dreadnoughts in my army list.

 

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What I should tell you about my chapter though is that after campaigning in segmentum solar (well, round it anyway), defeating an orc insurcian, crusading against a small orc empire, quelling large rebelions on hive and forge worlds (all of which is how they make their names, also, close ties with imperial organisations and started to prefer "close range" combat and the use of drop-pods). (Through their ties with other imerpial organisations, including machine cult, they obtain termi armour through after crushing a great number of rebelions and chaos cults on key worlds)

 

After this, they are presented with a homeworld on the eastern fringers, just as hive fleet kraken break imperial space. When they arrive, they find their new world just beginning to come under attack from one of the tyrannid fleet. Refusing to surrender their new homeworld they have fought so hard for, the chapter engages they enemy fleet, its full chapter drop-poding to the planets surfaces.

In short, the chapter fights against the tyrannid fleet upon they homeworlds surface, holding out against them for two weeks as all around them they world is been digested. With their orbital fleet wiped out, and taking heavy losses, they comitt their souls to the emperor as the death-blow tyrannid attack comes through.

 

Suddenly, from the skies above, a few companies of Ultramarines (they feel compelled to help them, having defended their homeworld the same way in the past...) and the imperial navy stage a daring assault, with the fleets in orbit occupied, the ultramarines withdrawl what is left of the chapter, the chapter also able to save a small proportion of their gene seed.

 

Chapter is in ruin, its entire space fleet gone and 3/4 of chapter dead with limited amounts of gene seed left, though majority of surviving marines are from first company and most termi suits remain in chapter hands.

However, many imperial organisations owe debt to the chapter and quickly come to aid their past-saviours. Within months, chapter has been stocked with ex-imperial navy battleships refited to meet needs as "strike cruisers", high lords of terra partitioned to present chapter with new stock of gene seed. Also, new chapter battle barge under-construction on Gryphonne IV thanks to direct orders from fabricator general himself.

 

Upon arriving at Gryphonne IV, they are presented with battle barge and multiple suits of dreadnought armour. For rest of time up to now, chapter has pushed and stretched itself to breaking point, even though it has already suffered grivious losses, to meet the tyrannid threat on many fronts, extensivly using fleet tactics and drop-pods in daring assault to engage tyrannid forces while evacuatng worlds in their path. Unable to recover their full strengh, chapter is still unable to engage in direct battle, preferring the use of droppods of quickly insert their forces directly where they can do the most damage and end the battle with minimal losses. As such they have become highly specialised in dop-assault, using close range fire-power and training heavily in close-combat warfare."

 

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So thats basically the bare-bones look at my chapter, what do you guys think so far? I make sense?

Like I said, it is bare-bones and their is ALOT of information I have written up and yet to finalise.

 

Thanks for all comments.

[Rune Priest Gribnoor]

Bit more information adding on where I left off...

 

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Upon recieving new armourments from Gryphonne IV, the chapter, still greatly depleted, set out from the hive world, tracking down and engaging singlar fleet of Kraken and utterly destorying them with tactical persision, taking minimal casuaties by attacking the fleets and boarding them shortly after coming out of warp travel, most organising on board still in frozen suspention. These highly successfully attacks across Segmentum Tespestus gained the chapter much recognition amoungst the fighting forces, even the great Lord Inquistitor Krytpman commending the Chapters work. Upon the defeat of Hive Fleet Kraken in the battle for the Ichar system, the Chapter continued its work against splinter fleets throughout the segmentum, coming to hone their now highly-aclaimed skills in close-quarter fighting against the tyrannid threat, excelling thsemselves in board actions and drop-pod assault.

 

Soon, grave news reached the chapter of a new hive fleet, Leviathan, smashing its way through imperial space. Organising the depleted chapters forces once more, they prepared to engage the new threat. However, Lord Inquistitor Krytpman contacted the chapter, calling for their assistance in the defense of the Tarsis sector, a path which would lead directly into the imperium. The chapter arrived a mere week before the tyrannid fleet break into the sector. During the three week engagement what would normally lightning-fast warfare of the chapter tuened in gruelling trench wars, the defeaters pushed back to the core of the sector and losses high for the already-depleted chapter, they fought on, however, with renewed vigour, knowing that each battle could be their last. When the tides of war finally did turn in the imperiums favour, shortly after a plauge virus was delieved to the Norn Queen, the Chapter was able to retire from to count their losses. Such were these losses the chapter re-organised its structure into three under-manned companies, such supported by the chapters terminators and dreadnought.

 

Refusing to allow their heavy losses deter them from there duties, the chapter immediatly set out from the Tarsis sector to face Leviathan's other tendical bearing down on the Segmentum Tespestus, returning to Gryphonne IV to resupply. Once again, the Adeptus Mechanicus welcomed back their favoured allies, something few can claim to be, immediatly setting to work upon their damaged ships and wargear. It was at this point one of the most infamous inquistitor rulings in the imperiums history came into play. Lord Inquistitor Krytpman ordered a galactic cordon, ordering, effectively, the surrender of outlying systems to be abandoned to the tyrannids, razed to the core to prevent the tyrannids absorbing more biomatter. To this day, it remains the largest single case of genocide in the imperiums history, second only to the horus heresy. The Chapter was outraged by this act, considering such orders heresy in its darkest form. Refusing the Lord Inquistory order, the chapter continued operations at Gryphonne IV (one of few imperial organisations which can choose to ignore a inquistitorial order), well outside the drawn lines of the corden, successfully able to hold off and evacuate systems from the vanguard forces of the hive fleet. Never before had the chapter been pushed to such limits and never before had it gone so far above imperium law, but countless populations were saved in the chapters heroic interventions.

 

Soon the hive fleet itself beared down upon Gryphonne IV itself, the its sleeping warbeast was set to work. Having owed so such to these Adeptus Mechanicus, more so then any other force, the Chapter swore it would stand by them, defending the planet to the last man and, do doing so, ensuring the chapter demise with little more then a foot note the imperial achieves. Days before the Hive Fleet reached the forge world, a direct transmittion came through for the chapter for Krytpman himself. The message was short and to the point, any friendship that had once been between the two long gone. Either withdraw all forces back to the imerpial front, or be declared "excommunicated". Outragged by this threat, they remained resolved to defended the world. Only by intervention of the Adeptus Mechanicus, pledding with the chapter to save itself and ensure its future, did the chapter leave Gryphonne IV to its fate with heavy hearts.

 

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So, there you have it so far, basically, after reading the text in the new tyrannid codex, I got really inspired to put my chapter into the thick of things, incorperating the current fluff into my chapter without steping on anyones toes. Im interested in your thought, any ideas?

 

So far it makes for a characterful background, and a certain hatred against the inquistation

[Rymeer]

I don't have a problem with most of what you've written... my only concern is the 're-seeding' of the chapter. I find it would be more likely for the Mechanicus to aide your chapter to renew it's geneseed by the same methods used to create it in the first place. forced implantation and accelerated growth and harvesting to multiply the geneseed as quickly as possible. I really doubt the Mechanicus would 're-seed' an existing chapter with new geneseed. 'Salvaging' a proven ally's geneseed by the accelerated implantation/harvesting method would give the chapter a good allotment of geneseed to create more chapter members from easily.

 

Perhaps your chapter is 'light' on Apothecarions. Which would expain the rapid loss of geneseed in battles. My own DIY chapter uses 'Purity Above All' trait and has many Apothecarys to harvest the geneseeds of their fallen brothers, thus keeping the chapter's numbers up. The apothecary's Narthecum also helps keep his squad alive longer, and the knowledge that a fallen marine's geneseed WILL return to the chapter is a consolation and balm to the troops, allowing them to meet and face foes with more ferocity of purpose.

 

Anyways, back to your chapter. If indeed your numbers of Apothecarys are low, then I can see the rapid decline in numbers and the need for Mechanicus aide in replicating your geneseed to replace that of the fallen brothers. Barring a low number of Apothecarions, I can only conclude that the chapter suffered many defeats against the 'Nids, and the fallen's geneseeds were lost in battle without hope of recovery. Against almost any other foe but 'Nids, and perhaps Traitor Marines, you chapter could re-visit the battle site later to recover the fallen brother's geneseeds (reference: 'Conquest of Armageddon' by Jonathan Green).

 

Hope this helps a bit.

 

The Holy Great Lion's Blessings, He who sits upon the Throne of Mankind, upon Thee Brother,

 

Rymeer

[Rune Priest Gribnoor]

Well, you see, my chapter, as foolish as one may see it, refused to surrender their no home world, and drop-poded into "hot zones" on the planet where tyrannids spores were landing in the hopes of steming the spread to the rest of the planet. Now the reason loses are so hgih is that, as mentioned in my first block of fluff, the chapter single-handedly held out against the entire splitter fleet for two weeks straight with no respite. As such, the chapter suffered emtreme losses through their pride in not letting their home world fall, only through the intervention of imperial navy and ultramarine forces at the 11th hour did the chapter come out of the battle with some marines left (only 298 surviving)...

 

As for re-seeding the geneseed, your right, I meant "forced implantation and accelerated growth and harvesting to multiply the geneseed as quickly as possible", which would be taking place on mars before the chapter recieved the flesh geneseed.

 

Hopefully, in a week or two, once I get all the bugs out, I'll get an AI up.

[Tastrel]

I also use my chapter as a "very young" one. To justify the two dreads that I like to use, my fluff is that the chapter was created immediately after abaddon's 13th crusade and their only misision is to patrol the opening to the Eye of terror and crush any chaos activity throughout the cadian sector. To accomplish this they have been gifted the best of everything available by the scions of mars in order to best equip this new chapter in their fight against chaos. This also included empty Dreadnought sarcophagii. As the chapter is so young, there has been no-one deemed heroic enough to have their remains encased in a dreadnought but to ensure the chapter can still use the dreadnoughts in battle they are remotely controlloed by a tech marine (s) either from a command rhino or a low orbit barge. all my dreads have radar dishes on the top to represent this and the dont have names. instead they are simply called ASSAULT I, ASSAULT II, SIEGE I etc.

 

This has been widely accepted by the guys I game against and no-one has had a problem with it so far.

[Aurelius Rex]

I also use my chapter as a "very young" one. To justify the two dreads that I like to use, my fluff is that the chapter was created immediately after abaddon's 13th crusade and their only misision is to patrol the opening to the Eye of terror and crush any chaos activity throughout the cadian sector. To accomplish this they have been gifted the best of everything available by the scions of mars in order to best equip this new chapter in their fight against chaos. This also included empty Dreadnought sarcophagii. As the chapter is so young, there has been no-one deemed heroic enough to have their remains encased in a dreadnought but to ensure the chapter can still use the dreadnoughts in battle they are remotely controlloed by a tech marine (s) either from a command rhino or a low orbit barge. all my dreads have radar dishes on the top to represent this and the dont have names. instead they are simply called ASSAULT I, ASSAULT II, SIEGE I etc.

 

This has been widely accepted by the guys I game against and no-one has had a problem with it so far.

Not wanting to steer this thread OT, but the last time chapters were founded was the 26th founding around 745.M41 - about 255 years before the 13th Black Crusade. However, even if they were 26th founding this might still fit in nicely as nothing happens quickly in the Imperium... It might be long enough to get the shells of a couple of badly wrecked dreads fixed up to some degree, and you could rationalise the remote control on the following grounds:

 

- As you have said, 'No-one heroic enough to be worthy of them.'

 

- The techmarines are still to find the correct incantations / rare parts to completely fix the dreadnought life support elements and have to use them remotely until then.

 

- The chapter has a biological flaw that means they do not 'take' in dreadnoughts, and will forever be stuck with the remote control characteristic.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Thanks.

 

Well, what I intended on doing was use the 26th founding and creating history that they have been heavily involved with the machine cult and have obtained terminator and dreadnought suits abnormally soon for a young chapter, I think that may work. They are kind of going to have operated and crusaded more centrally in the imperium before been presented a world on the eastern fringers (which is subsequently destoryed by tyrannids and chapter half devastated, but thats still a work in progress :P ), so they will have come in contact with plenty of forge worlds and high-tech worlds. As such, I think I'll make it that they were rewarded with dreadnought suits and have had aquired a few termie suits from their very founding. Unusual, but I think it will add to their fluff and make them more characterful.

 

Just a thought, why not set your self a challenge? You can include these models but your army has to actually crusade for them? Consider it the AM are willing to craft a few for you BUT you have to do them a favour and recover a relic for them.

 

This challenge for yourself could be you have to win 3 games in a row or play a series of games where you have to retrieve an objective and carry it off table inaddition to whatever mission you are playing. When you have done this you can start fielding your new termies/ dreadnaught.

 

The models can then have trophies and icons crafted/ modelled on them as reminder of this crusade. And there you have your story as well!! :blush: