Shooty Blood Angel's

[Grimdarkness]

O.K maybe shooty B.A was the wrong topic title what I'm asking is with the wright background fluff could you make a B.A successor with out the HtH feel of there parent chapter or the vampire influence.

 

 

I'm thinking of basing them on a planet where logic and reason is held to be a trait to aspire to in all things not geeks but cold and efficient killers. who would view the black rage and red thirst as abhorrent to there very beliefs or sensibilities and who are scared of ever falling victim to either.

 

 

In the PC&A board there's a member asking for help naming his chapter and looking for a badge the replies suggest something along the lines of the blood angels.

 

The model is painted in black and red and looks dark and brooding and i was thinking what happens if a Blood Angel Successors fears the black rage and red thirst so much they abhor close combat for the fear that they may lose control of themselves and give in to there genetic debasement as marines and become frothing madmen so much that they regiment there mind and body.

 

Would it work as marines are some of the most in control people in the imperium? :ph34r:

 

Any ideas

 

Thanks

[Librarian- Melechor]

Problem is, when the black rage hits, they'll charge into CC, or do whatever they want, they really have no control over these things. :D

[Grimdarkness]

True but the deus novel's and the B.A chief librian hint that some control can be gained over the black rage at the very lest.

[Ender26x]

To me, you could have your marine's carry out intense meditation, prayer to the emperor, and possibly medical supression. Otherwise, if troops succumb to it mid battle, you could go with commisar like excecution, which you may or may not want in your army list :wub:

[NINmaestro]

Sounds interesting. If they are able to suppress back rage, how long can they resist the urge to charge into CC?

[Race Bannon]

Anything can be done fluff wise for a DIY with some considerations.

 

Blood Angels successors = fine .. *IF* you can explain how the average Marine can control the Black Rage. "Hints" from a novel does not mean there "is" a way. Mephiston is suppossed to be the inspiration because he DID overcome the Black Rage but only under extreme circumstances and not completely. And he is only one man (and Chief Librarian at that!). :unsure:

 

Would you use BA rules on the table? If so then I think you will have some issues with the whole Black Rage rule thing they go going ... :rolleyes:

[Grimdarkness]

Anything can be done fluff wise for a DIY with some considerations.

 

Blood Angels successors = fine .. *IF* you can explain how the average Marine can control the Black Rage. "Hints" from a novel does not mean there "is" a way. Mephiston is suppossed to be the inspiration because he DID overcome the Black Rage but only under extreme circumstances and not completely. And he is only one man (and Chief Librarian at that!). :unsure:

 

Would you use BA rules on the table? If so then I think you will have some issues with the whole Black Rage rule thing they go going ... :rolleyes:

 

True but this is thinking out loud (anything that keeps me from talking to myself is good) useing the B.A rules/Codex no i don't think so unless i can come up with a better reason about the lack of the black rage then they just do.

[Librarian- Melechor]

So use the Codex traits then, if you are going to continue with this. But we still need a way for them to resist the black rage as well! :rolleyes:

[Grimdarkness]

To me, you could have your marine's carry out intense meditation, prayer to the emperor, and possibly medical supression. Otherwise, if troops succumb to it mid battle, you could go with commisar like excecution, which you may or may not want in your army list :)

 

 

So go with the trait purity above all and have the apothecary as a vocal point to guide the marine back with the die standing draw back or something else. Or do i go with the pious or sombre traits.

[Lord Luther]

I would say the Purity Above All would fit with this line of thought. With the apothecaries on hand, the chapter could be actively "breeding" a resistance by making sure to cultivate the geneseed of those who seem to be more resistant to the rage. This could also be part of the driving force behind this chapter.

[Commissar Molotov]

...the chapter could be actively "breeding" a resistance by making sure to cultivate the geneseed of those who seem to be more resistant to the rage. This could also be part of the driving force behind this chapter.

 

But the question remains - if this chapter is doing so, why aren't the Blood Angels also doing so?

 

OwlandMoonGuy were considering an interesting chapter. It's mentioned that the Blood Drinkers chapter are codex-adherent, rather than copying the Blood Angels' structure. What if those that succumbed to the Black Rage were not allowed onto the battlefield? What if they were imprisoned, or given the Emperor's mercy and killed by apothecaries? Yes, it's harsh... but perhaps your chapter's developed a set of beliefs where the curse is so abhorrent to them that they can't bear to see a brother endure it.

 

It would be an interesting, characterful army, but it would likely lead to there being a shortage of veterans in your army. Something to consider, even if you don't actually adopt it.

[Grimdarkness]

O.K so if i keep Purity Above All and add Uphold the Honour of the Emperor i can then take Aspire to Glory which would show the lack of vets to some extent. I feel these traits show the background i intend to write on such a chapter i should have something in a couple of days.

 

Thanks

[Beornling 3.1415]

nope gotta use the BA special rules if your BA or sucessor. sorry, Red Thirst and black rage....

 

I always wondered though, could a BA librarian, channel all those pent up memories into the nastiest form of Fury of the Anchients and create a flaming psychic avatar of Sanguinus?

[MikeH]

Actually, I like his idea about Aspire to Glory and Purity above all, the Apothecaries burning out those who rage

[Commissar Molotov]

nope gotta use the BA special rules if your BA or sucessor. sorry, Red Thirst and black rage....

 

There is no cast-iron explicit rule stating anywhere that BA successors must use any codex. Of course it's beneficial from a fluff point of view if they do so. The BA codex clearly suits the BA successors best. However, is the entry into the death company really as common and rapid as it's shown by the BA list? If the chapter executed or otherwise imprisoned those who would be eligible in the Blood Angels, a codex list might be slightly better-suited.

[Aurelius Rex]

Yes. A blanket 'You Must Use The BA Codex' seems a little strong. While I would be pretty cool on a chapter that had solved the Curse of Sanguinius, but had not bothered to tell the Blood Angels, the chapter could for some other reason not exhibit the curse on the battlefield and so be represented by say Codex SM traits.

 

It is all about how compellingly and believably this is presented. The Cursed Founding Lamenters were supposed to be an attempt to solve it and the cure was probably worse than the affliction.

 

So a major fluff downside as has been mentioned above, like a morbid fear of the curse, confining / killing any marine that even shows the slightest sign of it, meaning that the chapter has very few members, and is on it's way to extinction would be both believable and poignent. :)

[Beornling 3.1415]

Well being a big fan of 2000ad, I always thought that a blood angel sucessor chapter that sent it's older members out to the eye of terror on a "Long Walk" style crusade. (think 13th company wolves, crossed with death company....)

[Grimdarkness]

O.K i got stuck on how to show the lack of the black rage in the chapter so i asked a friend for some ideas these are the ones that made the cut.

 

1 the aptho's grant the emperor's mercy to said marine

 

2 the aptho's guide the marine back though pray/mediation

 

3 the aptho's put the marine into that hibernation type sleep

 

These led to how to show it on the battlefield as an in house rule set for 1 and 3 roll for the rage then remove the model's from the squad rolled for as the marines are either dead or asleep. 2 is a bit harder do i hold the squad for a game turn thus allowing my opponent a free turn to move and shoot or is this a fluff thing before the marines make planet fall.

 

I'm also lacking a name for the chapter and would like something divine be it a being other then an angel or a animal favoured by the god/gods

[Commissar Molotov]

I don't think it's anything you need a rule for. The induction to the Death Company for the Blood Angels occurs pre-battle (because they've had the opportunity to repaint their models in black, for one). I think you'd be perfectly fine utilising rules from Codex: Space Marines, along with appropriate fluff.

 

I would suggest that you don't go with route two, though. Beating back the rage is something rare - Mephiston wouldn't be half as special if it was commonplace. Route one is terribly drastic, but interesting. Route three is something I hadn't considered, but of course, use of the Sus-An Membrane to enter afflicted marines into hibernation is an interesting idea. I have the image of a marine with the black rage stuck in terrible nightmares of Sanguinius' last moments. Caught in torturous undeath... ^_^

 

Of course, your chapter might think that's even worse than the rage itself... that death would be preferable.

 

It's entirely up to you and what you think works to give you the strongest and most credible story.

[Mrph45]

Route three is something I hadn't considered, but of course, use of the Sus-An Membrane to enter afflicted marines into hibernation is an interesting idea.

 

I see Marines stacked like cordwood in cryogenic freezers ^_^

 

Maybe you could say those suffering from black rage make up your assault squads, choosing to die in battle while they still have control. Throwing themselves willingly into every battle no matter what the odds? I agree with the last few post that the fluff can make it doable with the right explanation.

[refuse]

But the question remains - if this chapter is doing so, why aren't the Blood Angels also doing so?

History.

Blood Angels share blood through the SHPs.

If this chapter didn't get an SHP, or their "original" one died. The loss of the strong tie to the Primarch's blood could be the thing that keeps the rage going.

 

The BA are not going to stop sharing the blood of their Primarch, that would be worse then dieing, it is deeply tied into their religion. So a successor who had a weaker tie, or a broken chain back to Sangius could have the rage removed.

 

OwlandMoonGuy were considering an interesting chapter. It's mentioned that the Blood Drinkers chapter are codex-adherent, rather than copying the Blood Angels' structure. What if those that succumbed to the Black Rage were not allowed onto the battlefield? What if they were imprisoned, or given the Emperor's mercy and killed by apothecaries? Yes, it's harsh... but perhaps your chapter's developed a set of beliefs where the curse is so abhorrent to them that they can't bear to see a brother endure it.

 

It would be an interesting, characterful army, but it would likely lead to there being a shortage of veterans in your army. Something to consider, even if you don't actually adopt it.

Or as you say, perhaps it is selective geneseeding.

I.e. if they let them on the battlefield, but don't use their genesed, they could be weeding out the weaker geneseed (i.e. the ones that Rage). By using marines that don't fall to rage, they are strengthing it. Though the marines that die young, would leave the touch of insanity in the army.

 

 

Yes. A blanket 'You Must Use The BA Codex' seems a little strong. While I would be pretty cool on a chapter that had solved the Curse of Sanguinius, but had not bothered to tell the Blood Angels, the chapter could for some other reason not exhibit the curse on the battlefield and so be represented by say Codex SM traits.

 

It is all about how compellingly and believably this is presented. The Cursed Founding Lamenters were supposed to be an attempt to solve it and the cure was probably worse than the affliction.

 

So a major fluff downside as has been mentioned above, like a morbid fear of the curse, confining / killing any marine that even shows the slightest sign of it, meaning that the chapter has very few members, and is on it's way to extinction would be both believable and poignent. :rolleyes:

Perhaps there isn't a curse, but a continued variance in the geneseed.

The use of blood as a ritual stimulates the rage. Mephiston got a "weak" strain or transfusion. Thus he overcame it. Those getting the normal or stronger chains fall.

 

This is why you don't see veterans more likely to fall then junior members. Though technically the veterans have survived longer without falling. Perhaps there is some pre-battle ritual (sharing of blood) that triggers these black rage episodes. By continuing this process, the BA inadvertandly subject themselves to the rage. Removing the ceremony would be a sin to them. But in the ritualistic nature of Marines in 40k, the logic will never be tested. They try to master themselves, without realizing basic chemistry, logical analysis.

 

Why don't the Dreadnaught pilots rage? Because they are seperated from the blood?

Why do BA live longer (geneseed? Blood activator?)

What would be the implication of removing something from the processes of the BA?

What if the first SHP had "weak blood". Thus the successor line was "cured". But when they share the ceremony with BA they are subject again. It could be viewed as a curse of the BA, when it is the blood ritual they share!

 

There are lots of logical, not to be explained reasons this could happen. It could be something as minute as a food ingredient the BA always eat. A wafer of a ritual that triggers this! A ritual song song, that triggers a geneseed excretion, a semantic trigger that is part of their psycho-conditioning.

 

All of these could be used to use current real world reasoning. So they "solve it", but in the 40k world it would never be found. Who would let an outsider tamper/test/sample the BA blood ritual drink? Their wafers? Who would notice the psycho-conditioning break down, or imbalance that is triggered by the ritual prayers.

 

I don't think it's anything you need a rule for. The induction to the Death Company for the Blood Angels occurs pre-battle (because they've had the opportunity to repaint their models in black, for one). I think you'd be perfectly fine utilising rules from Codex: Space Marines, along with appropriate fluff.

And get out of their terminator armor!

[Grimdarkness]

Route three is something I hadn't considered, but of course, use of the Sus-An Membrane to enter afflicted marines into hibernation is an interesting idea. I have the image of a marine with the black rage stuck in terrible nightmares of Sanguinius' last moments. Caught in torturous undeath...

 

Thats what i thought as well.

 

I like the assult idea makes a good deal of sense right now.

 

Explaing the lack of the black rage is harder then i thought it would be thanks for the help guys.

[Commissar Molotov]

If this chapter didn't get an SHP, or their "original" one died. The loss of the strong tie to the Primarch's blood could be the thing that keeps the rage going.

The Flesh Tearers dropped the Blood Angels' practice of blood transfusions to new recruits when they split from the Legion after the Heresy, but by this time Sanguinius' pain had already become so bound within the Chapter's geneseed itself that they could not escape the effects of the Black Rage.

 

This'd suggest that the blood transfusions aren't necessarily a factor in the rage - at least, not anymore. If ever they were, which'll never be proven, by the time of the heresy, 'Sanguinius' pain' was bound into the gene-seed.

 

Why don't the Dreadnaught pilots rage? Because they are seperated from the blood?

 

Moriar the Chosen fell to the rage after he was interred in a dreadnought sarcophagi - as I understand his sacrophagus had to be modified to allow him to imbibe blood.

 

 

Your theories are certainly interesting, REFUSE - the strong/weak gene-seed makes scientific sense, though I'm wary of applying it to a DIY chapter, if only because the cause is a mystery. The 40k universe is one where daemons stalk the universe - 'magic' and 'sorcery' are real and the idea of a psychic curse isn't far-fetched. Of course, to an extent, the fearful and (relatively) primitive peoples of the Imperium explain away to superstition that which they can't fathom - but by definitively saying 'My DIY chapter got 'weak' gene-seed' and going down a very precise, scientific angle, it sort of bursts that semi-fantasy bubble that surrounds the 40k mythos. I don't know, it's very much a personal taste thing. Whatever works for GrimDarkness in the end, I guess.

[refuse]

This'd suggest that the blood transfusions aren't necessarily a factor in the rage - at least, not anymore. If ever they were, which'll never be proven, by the time of the heresy, 'Sanguinius' pain' was bound into the gene-seed.

The problem with that is, the pain is His death. So it can't be by the time of the heresy.

 

Ok, so it probably isn't the blood (per the flesh tearers).

 

Your theories are certainly interesting, REFUSE - the strong/weak gene-seed makes scientific sense, though I'm wary of applying it to a DIY chapter, if only because the cause is a mystery. The 40k universe is one where daemons stalk the universe - 'magic' and 'sorcery' are real and the idea of a psychic curse isn't far-fetched. Of course, to an extent, the fearful and (relatively) primitive peoples of the Imperium explain away to superstition that which they can't fathom - but by definitively saying 'My DIY chapter got 'weak' gene-seed' and going down a very precise, scientific angle, it sort of bursts that semi-fantasy bubble that surrounds the 40k mythos. I don't know, it's very much a personal taste thing. Whatever works for GrimDarkness in the end, I guess.

But then it leaves only fluff.

And there isn't enough fluff to justify alot of things.

So it becomes "that is the way it is".

 

Why are the Blood Ravens subject o more psykers? Why did the curse founding fail?

I can give real world ideas, and then merge them back into the story.

Such as modification of the initiation rites. Or possible removal of certain organs during implamentation of the geneseed.

 

As you say, in the DIY information, to avoid breaking 40kness, probably the best answer isn't one. It is leaving it dark, not understood and wondered at. But that is one of the things that was questioned here? Why! To explain why, we need reasons. But 40k isn't about reasons, it is about atmosphere (from the Imperium's point of view.)

 

Explaining a failed geneseed used during the creation of a chapter, would require justifing why the geneseed failed. We can't do that without bringing in current logic. It is circular. So the flavor of the writer must be the balance used here?

[Commissar Molotov]

Apologies, I'll clarify. By 'by the time of the heresy', I meant as opposed to during the Great Crusade. IA: Flesh Tearers suggests that very shortly after their split from the Blood Angels they stopped the transfusions.

 

But then it leaves only fluff.

And there isn't enough fluff to justify alot of things.

So it becomes "that is the way it is".

 

Why are the Blood Ravens subject o more psykers? Why did the curse founding fail?

I can give real world ideas, and then merge them back into the story.

Such as modification of the initiation rites. Or possible removal of certain organs during implamentation of the geneseed.

 

As you say, in the DIY information, to avoid breaking 40kness, probably the best answer isn't one. It is leaving it dark, not understood and wondered at. But that is one of the things that was questioned here? Why! To explain why, we need reasons. But 40k isn't about reasons, it is about atmosphere (from the Imperium's point of view.)

 

Explaining a failed geneseed used during the creation of a chapter, would require justifing why the geneseed failed. We can't do that without bringing in current logic. It is circular. So the flavor of the writer must be the balance used here?

 

Haha, you've got a good point. I'm often seen asking people to detail their backgrounds. But there's details and there's details. It's a difficult line to draw, certainly, between providing information and keeping in-character with the 40k ethos. I mean, I'm often seen asking people to explain traditions, to give details on events, whilst this is more about the science behind 40k.

 

I think in the end it has to come down to the personal taste of the writer. Just like your elaborate Orwellian conspiracies, just like Tiger Raja's female marines. If you want to go ahead and scientifically detail 40k, how daemons aren't daemons, but aliens from an alternate dimension where our rules of physics don't apply, where magic isn't magic but unexplained psychic potential, that's cool. It's never going to be everyone's taste. It's like taking the dark, gothic, candle-lit environment of 40k, and switching the lights on. Wheeling the rotting carcass of the galaxy in the 41st Millenium into a spotless mortuary and prying around. As you said, the atmosphere is what makes the game for a lot of people. Our concepts of science aren't always going to dovetail with life in 999.M41.