Canada Games Day Pictures

[Master Avoghai]

Well I'm glad to see that what I say on French forums finally finds an echo here....

 

Just to sum up, many hobbyists in France say that It's a shame that Bonamant and others went to Canada for just as "GD hunters"... and that they should have participated with only one mini if fun was what made them participate.

 

I'm glad to see the attitude of DV8... your termi made me fall from my chair and I have even more respect for your work when I see the spirit of the man behind ... Big up here

 

 

As for the Ethos vs prowess debate, it occurs in Europe too and from ages now... many don't understand how pieces like Inq Baron Lejeune or Grallahpoussah could be judged as "GW universe linked"...

 

it's a hard debate because mainly based on subjectivity...

 

Anyway glad to see that foreign painters make American ones want to surpass them next year, I'm sure you have all the talent to do so

[mario]

Though I think the sword rule should've been enforced. Winning a sword should deny you to enter again in another GD, it might not be fair to others.

There is nothing in the rules that says that a Slayer Sword winner can't participate in the competition. That rule was removed or changed so that the Slayer Sword winner is guest judge for the next competition and may participate oneyear after that.

 

Should the GD rules look more like this?

The competiton is not perfect but allowing Slayer Sword winners to participate again seems very fair and does not base the definition of fair on some PC idea that everyone (not matter how bad) should get a chance to win this trophy. It's still a trophy for the best of show. I think it was a good idea to remove that restriction.

 

Just to sum up, many hobbyists in France say that It's a shame that Bonamant and others went to Canada for just as "GD hunters"... and that they should have participated with only one mini if fun was what made them participate.

I think it's funny that some people always say that this GD competition is better than that one over there, then the next group says that the european painters are better, another group says it's a different style. They showed that their stuff could win something in one of the american competitions and I don't think that it was just a 'Golden Daemon Hunt'. If they would have appeared with just one entry each, some people who start the next fight because they did not dominate the competition even though 'all the internet' is saying the the french style is superior. Now people complain that they stole somebodys daemons. The same thing happened in germany when the french guys appeared here for the first time and people complained. That was GD DE 2004 and the 'french invasion' took 10 daemons in 9 categories and the Slayer Sword. But the people who really painted stuff with the aim to get better and used the Golden Daemon competition as a yearly meeting place were happy to see this high quality. Most of the bitter people were spectators, not painters. They were happy to learn something new and to improve their technique. I didn't participate but this 'invasion' as some people called it helped to improve the standard in germany and soon there were more and more people coming to this daemon from all over europe. I think this effect was great and probably the best thing that could happen to the competition.

 

About Baron Lejeune and Grallahpoussah: The first one is just an inperial officer (heavily inspired by historical uniforms). Many Games Workshop products are inspired by historical things. So I don't see that much wrong with that ecept that it's missing a lot of the GW over the top insignia. I didn't really like the whole elephant but hat anothe story. I don't know enough about the new ogre stuff background. But is it so bad that these two things are referencing some history in their work. Does it make their work less good just because they are not referencing the same historical things (+ more skulls) that GW does and that you expect them to do?

[No Remorse]

Well I just got back in and settled so I thought I would pop my head in and say a big congrats to Boltman and DV8. Sorry I missed meeting you DV8, I know you must have been behind the curtain with us, maybe next year :)

 

It was great being able to hang out with Vince all day and have him show me the ropes and introduce me to the great Franch team and Angela.

 

Also a big hello to all that I met there from B&C, I am not great with names but you know who you are :)

 

I will post pics of my Bronze 40k squad tonight, if you want to look in the gallery it is the Legion of the Damned terminators

 

Ja

[DV8]

I would have liked to meet Vincent...AND the French Team...AND Angela...along with alot of the other painters. Unfortunately, as a Volunteer I was stuck running one of the demo tables all day (mainly because all the other Volunteers with me kept running off.. :)).

 

Oh well...there is ALWAYs next year...and the year after that. Plus if you're ever in Toronto we can always just meet up for fun.

 

 

DV8

[Castle]

I Really can't see why you wouldn't be able to enter again if you win a Slayer Sword. If you win the Stanley Cup one year do they ban you from playing the next season? No, because it just encourages others to go for it even harder, thus creating a more enjoyable sport. The same principle applies to our lovely hobby. As long as you use a different entry of course. As for the Slayer winner, it may be the pictures, but it does seem to be the Marko Columbo fantasy figure from the Lustria Campaign. If I'm wrong please don't beat me. I can't really see why some arn't happy with this model winning, however it does raise the question of how much of the model should actually be a GW product and not GS. If you can get away with alot of GS (as we all seen to enjoy), it makes a painting contest into more of a modeling contest. I agree that conversions are almost a necesity for a competative peice, but how much is too much. Us modelers are on the brink of a dangerous road, and if entirely scratch built peices are allowed to be entered then Emperor help us all (well at least those that can't sculpt).

 

I can't wait to see more pictures and general stories of the event. Congrats to all who entered and I wish I could have been there to cheer the B&Cers on. At least now we have the Conflict schedule to look forward to.

[tkkultist]

My $0.02 CDN,

 

After GD toronto I think the Cdn $ and that associated $0.02 is worth more than ever before. The entries for this year were excellent across the board - I was really proud to see our Canadian Demons draw such an amazing group from all over the world. Without hyperbole I can say that this was certainly one of the best fields of models I have have seen in a GD competition in a number of years now - both for the quality and diversity of the works present.

 

I was pleased to have placed a silver again this year and to cut in 3 categories (though I will not be able to post pics on this board due it being WFB- please check my website by the end of the week I should have some pics up) I was especially proud to see that even next to the pieces from the europeans and team Montreal my pieces did not look at all out of place and that my painting has most certainly grown in the direction that I had hoped and worked for this year. I would have liked to had a chance to chat with the visitors but my position as area captain for wfb (yes i know BOO HISS!) kept me away. I hope to email a couple of them after the fact to talk shop.

 

I also disagree with the comments concerning the community of painters here in NA - There is a strong sharing community - the propblem is that it is so scattered and that the geography is a difficult thing to overcome. Multiple european countries could fit in ontario - let alone all of canada - or north america. I have gotten as far as I have by taking every opportunity to meet, share and work with painters whom I respect. I am going to Gencon this year to meet up with one such community of friends and allies to shoot the breeze, hang out and to talk shop. Vtraxx will know what I am talking about - He talks to me often about his pieces as well as the people he has met along the way that are giving him tips and inspiration. It is that kind of sharing, brainstorm, teaching and learning that help artists to grow.

 

Congrats to all who placed cut or had the guts to show share and help the community grow.

 

James K. Craig

AKA Tkkultist

[Boltman]

Dang DV8 I was trying to locate you but I failed. I wanted to personally shake your hand for that exquisite Chaplain. And that freehand was out of this world. Definetly your strong point, keep pushing that!

 

I am not concerned about full sculpts making the cut because it's not like the sculpting won teh sword, the p

[-Q-]

Says the Slayer winner with a handful of Demons :P

[Grey Knight]

I really think that anyone who keeps saying that the french stole our demons or that the ogre won because of the free hand should really take the opinions of the people who actaully met these amazing painters into account. Judging from what JeanFrancois said the slayer sword winner also helped us canadians out alot and if i had a chance to take one of these classes run by world class miniature painters I'd jump at the chance.

[Ardus]

It was great to see so many painted models. Didn't make the first cut for 40k single, but in seeing the ones that won, gives me more determination to strive to improve my painting. I made 1st cut formy inquisitor model and that gave me great pride ... and told me that my painting isn't all that bad and again makes me want to paint better.

Having people from other countries attend "our" event is great, it pushes us (or should) to strive for better would it have made any differance to the Americans came? I think not.

I've always been impressed by the European painting style and it was great to see it in person.

Canadians... strive to be the best, learn from others on the way.

 

Ardus.

[Boltman]

Americans attend GD Canada every time, some great people and painters at that. Some from this board actually. Is that wrong? Of course not, heck we get to see the neat stuff some come up with that we wouldn't see otherwise. I'll all for the exchange of cultures and techniques through a GD gathering.

 

In a completely unrelated matter, awesome concept with that holey headed plague marine Anthraxus :P

 

By the Way -Q -, I am serious; I used to think getting a demon was all there could ever be. Granted, it sounds easier to say when you've had teh incredible luck I've had to get those trophies. But trust me on this, you'll get great pride from a trophy, but eventually you'll realize that the Golden Demon is a process, not an end in itself. :devil: Meeting many an individual and exchange, receiving people's gratitude for teaching them a thing or two, helping them in their own endeavours and receiving their perspective on things in return, that's where the jewel of the painting hobby is.

 

 

Boltman

[VtrAxX]

Honestly agreed with Boltman.

 

Even though I didnt get a trophy. I still came to understand that I made first cut in one of the toughest categories on that day, and to know that the model I dedicated my time and hands to was in a case full of other extremely nice models was like a trophy already. What I accomplished that day was basically the goal I wanted; to be able to make first cut and try my best. I also ended up with nice comments, tips, and was able to talk to Jereme, Team Montreal, Vincent and Angela Imrie also the judges (Dave taylor, Pete Foley, and someone else). I learned from this GD from many experienced painters through comments and critiques and basically thats why GD gatherings can help you improve and see the overall point that Golden demon trophies are stepping stones, but it does make some people happy so heh. :D

 

I hope I clearly explained my umm..experiences..

 

Vtraxx Out

[dragonforge]

Ill follow up on this one. As an American, Ive attended and competed in the UK Games Day 5 times now and took home awards twice. GD UK if any if the Games Days is truely an international show. It has been won more times by non English painters than english. The last 3-4 years alone it was A Dane, French and Russian painter has won the sword. To say the show was stolen by the french is wrong. The world is becoming a smaller place, international travel is now easy and in some cases cheaper than it ever was. get use to it, you will see more international competition going on.

 

As for previous sword winners being banned, I know after 1995 the US demons banned sword winners from competeing in future shows to keep one person from winning the sword year to year. They dropped this silly rule in 2002. German did have a rule like this for a while too I think.

 

The UK has never had a rule like this and has had many multiple sword winners in its history, but none back to back as far as I can remember.

 

As far as meeting other painters and shareing ideas, an event like Gen Con might be best for this as its a 4 day event. We have a large area set up for miniature painting, run many classes many being taught by B&C members and a top notch painting competition.

[-Q-]

By the Way -Q -, I am serious; I used to think getting a demon was all there could ever be. Granted, it sounds easier to say when you've had teh incredible luck I've had to get those trophies. But trust me on this, you'll get great pride from a trophy, but eventually you'll realize that the Golden Demon is a process, not an end in itself. :) Meeting many an individual and exchange, receiving people's gratitude for teaching them a thing or two, helping them in their own endeavours and receiving their perspective on things in return, that's where the jewel of the painting hobby is.

Sorry, it's hollow now.

I didn't want to get on my soap box for the local vs. outsider thing but come on man...

 

I want to be clear though... I have honest, complete, and unashamed respect for your accomplishments. You entered this hobby with an unrealistic goal, met that goal, exceeded that goal. I have no intention of ever belittling that so if I come off that way I want my feelings straight =)

 

I do hope you feel the way you describe now. However when your IW didn't win best army you complained. When you flew into our Games Day and Bushido took the Sword you remarked that the judges must've chosen him for the freehand so you will immediately begin work on that for your next entry. When your Terminator squad didn't win you complained that it was because of the lighting. Not that the other entries were painted better, with fewer flaws, or tighter style, or whatever. There was always an excuse and the tone that you were robbed one way or another.

 

So seeing these reactions over the years and knowing the trophy case is full, your post just doesn't work for me. I am glad to see you posting here again every couple of weeks or so, even in a few threads that aren't about the Demons :devil:

 

I'm one of the spectators that complains for the competitors. I think more spectators complain because the competitors for the most part are genuinely happy just to place and complaining when you lose is bad Sportsmanship. You look at the posts around the internet on forums and blogs where people list off how many of their entries made First Cut. It boggles me that people get excited about not winning, but they do, and that shows how important these events are to them.

 

Given that... to have a team of previous winners from anywhere fly into your local Games Day and sweep the Demons is not in the spirit of Sportsmanship in my opinion. Attend other Games Days around the world, make friends, share your experience, teach painting, that's great! I love it and encourage it. Meeting new people is one of the joys of Games Day. Leave your entries at home for your local contest. The local one is likely the only one that fans can get to that year. Few people have a cult that will gather up offerings to fly their cabal across the ocean. Yes, anyone *can* enter any international Games Day but few have the resources to do so. If by some freaky turn of events the non-local one is the only one you can get to that year, then yeah enter away and enjoy your Games Day.

 

If it's not about winning the trophies then there should be no problem with leaving your entries home now that you've won so the locals can have their chance at it.

 

Some people call me Conservative. I am in fact Reactionary B)

[mario]

Given that... to have a team of previous winners from anywhere fly into your local Games Day and sweep the Demons is not in the spirit of Sportsmanship in my opinion. Attend other Games Days around the world, make friends, share your experience, teach painting, that's great! I love it and encourage it. Meeting new people is one of the joys of Games Day. Leave your entries at home for your local contest. The local one is likely the only one that fans can get to that year. Few people have a cult that will gather up offerings to fly their cabal across the ocean. Yes, anyone *can* enter any international Games Day but few have the resources to do so. If by some freaky turn of events the non-local one is the only one you can get to that year, then yeah enter away and enjoy your Games Day.

Why leave miniatures for my local contest? It doesn't matter where you win. The winning miniautre then can't compete again.

 

The problem (in my opinion) is not that people steal trophies but that GW is giving three trophies for each category in a competition where you can't just add up the sores and see which team won. There are no exact rules because a lot of subjective opinion is involved.

 

They could try the system that the historical painters (euro militaire,...) use. Have bronze, silver and gold trophies. But don't give the trophies to the 'three best' but to everyone who deserves it. But for that GW would need more or less consistent rules for quality rating and a bigger group of judges to ensure consistent rating. So in one competition you could have 60 gold winners because they all had flawless miniatures. And in some other competition there would barely be any bronze and no silver or gold because the work was not good enough if compared to the common standard.

 

Edit: And I found this at dakkadakka.

[Master Avoghai]

to have a team of previous winners from anywhere fly into your local Games Day and sweep the Demons is not in the spirit of Sportsmanship in my opinion

 

Like I told on a French forum, I'll make it in english...

 

There is a fair play rule we use in football (the one you do play with foot: soccer :) ) I always quote :

"When you can inflict a 60-0 to your opponent, then you have to do it."

 

There is IMO no less respect than refuse to play a game. They were invited to canada to teach AND compete, that's what they did, who can reproach that to them?

 

I myself often play 40k against beginners, I show them where they could have done better and remind them things they forest while playing... that doesn't prevent me to inflict them a hard loss... Why? simply because my opponent will more easily evaluate his progress at next game.

If we made a draw and the next game too, there will only be subjective values to analyze... but if I won by 1500pts the 1st game and only 600 the 2nd one, it will be great involment and satisfaction for him and he will make even more efforts to get better!

 

So no, this is not bad sportsmanship to bring many pieces to a competition and win (moreover they brought some pieces which were 2 year old and didn't expect much from them though were finally surprised). It would have been if they wouldn't have teached much to team montreal and hidden tips to make sure they won't win... but it was not the case.

 

And also see the local painters who did get something, see their reactions like DV8 : he's even more motivated for next year.

I don't think they would have been motivated like that if the 3 guys would have brought one piece of work... They have been motivated by the fact they did get some prize despite a consequent opposition.

 

And imagine if the french team wouldn't have brought anything and only teach... how many reactions like : "yeah you've won but there was painters there who didn't propose something who would have beaten you with the arm attached in the back"

=> ie : you don't deserve your prize

 

I just don't think it's a better solution...

 

 

Now you can also be someone who just don't like competition and I can understand that, it's fine... A chance we have also people like that!

 

But you want it or not : Golden Deamon IS a competition, and the most important competition of our hobby. There are written rules that those guys respected.. There are also unwritten "Competitor Commandements" that I've explained just before and they respected them too...

So I see nothing to reproach to them...

 

Now I'm looking forward team Montreal or elsewhere comin' to Old Europe to kick some butts ;)

[Ahmato]

Amen to that Master Avoghai.

[StrayCatt]

Time to chime in with my two cents on the subject of "shopping for Daemons".....

 

I have been antending the U.S. Golden Demons since thier inception, and have been competeing since 1998. I got to see the U.S. Daemons in, what I feel, was thier heyday, when individuals like Bobby Wong and Chris Borer snagged their swords. At that time, unless you could afford to travel abroad, you only had the option of attending 1 GW run competitionin the U.S., so everyone broughttheir best game. Several individuals would pour thier heart and soul into 1, maybe two pieces in the hopes of getting just one trophy. (Bryan Shaw and Jason Richard's would crank out umpteen billlion pieces in the hopes of getting all of the trophies :D )

 

Quick aside: Would you believe people used to actually complain that individuals like Bryan Shaw would put together too many great looking entries. They would say it was unfair that he was that good... That almost makes as much sense as complaining that people are entering comps outside of their own countries.

 

Fast foward a few years to the advent of multiple U.S. competitions, and you begin to see individuals taking their entries from one comp to the next. Gone is the idea of putting everything you have into your one entry, because if it doesn't place the first time, you can just go to the next comp where you won't have to compete against the piece that beat you this time. And thus, "shopping for Daemons" was born. :( (I was guilty of this as well at one point.... I have since stopped, and went back to the idea of putting my efforts into 1 or 2 entries for 1 particular Daemon comp. And it has served me well so far...)

 

IMHO, if a competitor (and that is what you are if you enter) truly does his best, brings his best game so to speak, then he should be welcom wherever he goes to compete. And it looks as though this is what the 'French Team' did when they went to Canada. These are the people (Like Jeff Wilhelm, Bryan Shaw, Brett Dewald, Sue Wachowski, Kent Plumb, Chris Borer, Joe Orteza, James Craig, and the list goes on...) that kept me coming back to the Daemons every year, even when I wasn't placing..... I would look foward to chatting with these people. Maybe even grab dinner and talk about what the judges completely overlooked that year. This is why I go to the Daemons. It is also why I will be at GenCon Indy all 4 days this year. A place with another great painting competition. And there I can personally vouch for the integrity of teh Judges, as I am one of em... (Bribes in cash only please. Small bills preffered.... ;) )

 

If all you are doing is taking the same entry time and again and going from comp to comp hoping to find a comp where your piece will place, then you aren't competing, you are just looking for a trophy. In just under two months, the final U.S. comp of the year will take place in Chicago. If you plan to attend, and compete, bring the best you have, because I will, as will several others.

 

-Adam

[Brother Weasel]

Complaing that someone came over from another country is asnine. WHo cares where they came from? they could come from france, or mexico, or russia, or china? Boltman was in Los ANgeles this year... he's canadian, IN THE UNITED STATES! Dragonforge hase gone to england, he's american, Commander Y was in LA, i'll be you see him in chicago as well... who cares where they came from, just lok at the mini and forget who made it... just that it was made and it won... and that it is somthign to stive to do, or do better then...

[ArbitesAugmented]

Has anyone actually stolen anything from the conversion contest? if so, how? :D

[mario]

If people want to complain about "shopping for Daemons" then they should complain about the people who buy painted miniatures via ebay and then enter a competition with that miniature. That is clearly against the rules. Someone tried that in the last two or three US Golden Daemon competitions and each time got caught but that only happened when the online painting community could see the pictures because the few GW employees who are responsible for that have enough to do with looking for non-GW parts and organizing the whole thing.

 

If you really want to complain about someone stealing "your daemons" then complain about these people, not the ones who play by the rules. And if you have a problem with people from other countries entering in your "local Golden Daemon competition" ask Games Workshop to change the rules and things like that should not happen again once you have and ID check at the Golden Daemon filing site

[StratoKhan]

Given that... to have a team of previous winners from anywhere fly into your local Games Day and sweep the Demons is not in the spirit of Sportsmanship in my opinion. Attend other Games Days around the world, make friends, share your experience, teach painting, that's great! I love it and encourage it. Meeting new people is one of the joys of Games Day. Leave your entries at home for your local contest. The local one is likely the only one that fans can get to that year. Yes, anyone *can* enter any international Games Day but few have the resources to do so. If by some freaky turn of events the non-local one is the only one you can get to that year, then yeah enter away and enjoy your Games Day.

If it's not about winning the trophies then there should be no problem with leaving your entries home now that you've won so the locals can have their chance at it.

 

And that to me reads like Golden Daemon parochialism.

 

If someone takes the time and puts in the effort required to win a Golden Daemon, and then puts in the time and effort to win multiple Golden Daemons, all the while respecting the rules, then why should that be considered unsporting?

 

The truth is that when sportsmanship is reduced to a capping device, then it's basically a mockery of itself.

 

Had the french contingent come all the way to GD CA and not won a single trophy, then no-one would have complained about the fact that they had entered. The problem with your argument is that it is a retrospective argument. The only reason that you say that these people should not have competed is that you know that they won several Daemons, including the Slayer Sword. You say the locals should have their chance at winning, well they had their chance, and they lost or won depending on the categories. The rules also allow other people not from the country a chance to enter and win. The rules are clear, nothing is mentioned about a contestant's nationality. The effort and skill was present in the final piece, the rules were followed, and the judges awarded it the Sword. Nothing unsportsmanlike did happen.

 

Precluding someone from competition because of the fact that they are a potential winner seems extremely unsporting to me, on the other hand.

 

Discussing ethos and execution of a WHFB seems to be Off topic, but I believe there should be more focus on the fact that DV8's lovely Terminator Chaplain won a Daemon, and I for one can't wait to see what he comes up with next, now that he has seen the level of competition that might be present.

[-Q-]

Those are great replies guys and really helped me to focus my thoughts. I knew I had an unpopular opinion which is why I just kept quiet... until Boltman told everyone not to worry about trophies which was too ridiculous to leave alone.

 

Although I have no problem with Golden Demon parochialism I realize my real problem is that which was described as "shopping for Demons". So in that light a solution I would better enjoy would be a world-wide one entry per category rule. Let everyone compete and enter but take your one chance per category per year... and bring your best. Sort of where I was going in my last reply only I thought location rather than category.

 

I also think you should only ever get to win the Slayer once ever. Don't really care if you painted better than someone else the next year.

 

My opinion is difficult to articulate because it seems somewhat contradictory. I think the Demons are way over-valued but at the same time think their value to the average gamer isn't respected enough by pro-painters. I haven't really reconciled that in my head yet so I'll leave that there :wub:

[Brother Weasel]

personly... enter wherever you like... whenever you like... but i don't think you shold be able to take the same mini to a comp more then once... not saying it would be easy to enforce... but hey if you can speed paint slayer winners, take all of them:)

[Master Avoghai]

Although I have no problem with Golden Demon parochialism I realize my real problem is that which was described as "shopping for Demons". So in that light a solution I would better enjoy would be a world-wide one entry per category rule. Let everyone compete and enter but take your one chance per category per year... and bring your best. Sort of where I was going in my last reply only I thought location rather than category.

 

I also think you should only ever get to win the Slayer once ever. Don't really care if you painted better than someone else the next year.

But would you ask Schumacher to stop racing after winning 7 Formula 1 titles? (and following your opinion he should have stoped at one)... No he went on and Alonso beated him hence deserving his title for having beaten the previous one...

And what about Sampras? He won 5 times Wimbledon... Did we forbid him to try Roland Garros? Nope and by the way he never managed to win there finally...

 

When you participate a competition, you want that all the potential opponents to be there with full force, that's all, you want to deserve your result... not necessary to say the entire world you did it, just to think yourself:" If I won or lost, I'm the only one responsible of it..."

 

I just like fair competition and to me, forbid a potential winner to participate is just like putting some laxative in his coffee before the competition :wub: