Orders to Space Marines

[Race Bannon]

So, I have been reading DIY since I joined this board. Heck I even wrote one. But one question has been bugging me and the latest batch of DIY's has forced me to look at the situation.

 

Space Marines don't do anything without a purpose. They are also (one of) the Imperium's military branches.

SO, Do Space Marine Chapters go to "war/crusade" without orders or direct provocation? I mean, do they say, "Oh, look - Chaos cultists are on that planet over there. Let's go get 'em!" Or "Wow, Orks have been spotted in the system next to ours ... CHARGE!"

 

A "crusade" is an event that is ordered by someone or some organization. I can see a Chapter making a self-imposed crusade ... easy enough. But using their resources against a Xenos "because they are there" somehow doesn't seem right to me.

 

First the Inquistion and IG would be used. Space Marines would be called in to help, this is obvious. But to use the Space Marines *only* means the :) has really hit the fan. But even this suggests the SM are under orders.

 

Now, let's say the Space Marines "show up" and help beligured Imperial forces. Wouldn't they make contact with the Imperial forces not out of respect, but out of some chain of command? And this being SoP. I would think Marines who just appear, kick ass and leave would get into some sort of trouble. If not ... why? Because they saved the day so they are off-the hook? I doubt it.

 

(Legion of the Damned is an exception ... but are they the only exception? GW clearly defined them as so mysterious there is nothing to say about them except an OLD crappy army list with tales of "oooh and aaah" ... but no Index Astartes.)

 

So, again ... do Space Marines act without orders? Do they act when not directly provoked?

[Legionus_Iolair]

I've always assumed the Marines were outside the normal CoC. They would follow the 'guidance' of the IG leader in situ but, at the end of the day, Marines are loyal to the Chapter and the Emperor.

 

There is a reference in the Necropolis paperback where Gaunt assumes command as he is the highest ranking IG officer and IG always supersede local forces

[Grey Ghost]

Space Marine Chapters I thought were stand alone organisations with only maybe teh Inquisition being able to boss them about.

[Race Bannon]

at the end of the day, Marines are loyal to the Chapter and the Emperor.

 

Well yeah ... but that is not carte blanche is it? If they are loyal to the Emperor, does that give Space Marines the justification to do whatever they want at any time? They cannot be answerable to the High Lords (Emperor) *only* ... can they? Even if they were they are still under orders from them. So when Space MArines make a move it is sanctioned bythe High Lords (Emperor)? No matter what?

 

If the Ultramarines decided to go get the Eldar, and I mean really come down on Alaitoc ... say, genocide level without telling anyone (Inquisitorial or lower level), then a massive Tyranid fleet appears and kicks Imperial forces to the curb ... what would happen to the Ultramarines for "doing their own thing"? A slap on the wrist because they are Space Marines? The Imperium of Man just got an ass kicking by some aliens and the Ultramarines were not there to respond - they acted against the needs of the Imperium to satisfy their own agenda?

 

^_^

 

The Imperium made Sapce marines what they are. Without the Emperor (High Lords) they would not even exist. This is why renegade Marines are so anthemic to loyalist Marines.

[Nine_Breaker]

The Adeptus Astartes is basically a separate entity to the rest of the Imperium. They don't need to follow the orders of some Imperial Guard commander, no matter how high ranking. You don't tell them to help you in a war, you request their assistance, and the chapter will decide how much power they will send, where it's going, and when it will be there. There are of course some exceptions, like when an Inquisitor Lord calls upon that Astartes to fight against the daemonic or another large threat, because otherwise the chapter would probably be called heretics and traitors for not coming to the Inquisitor's aide. Even then though, an Inquisitor can't 'boss them about' as he could with Imperial Guard. But for the most part, the Astartes live by their own rules.

 

I don't really consider them one of the Imperium's military branches at all. I think of them as a stand-alone organization that [very fanatically] fights for the good of the Imperium. So, no, they aren't given direct orders when they go to war 95% of the time. But, what servant of the Imperium, especially the genetically enhanced kind that are made specifically to kill, just stands back and watches Xenos and Chaos walk all over the Emperor's rightful dominions just because they can? If you ask me, an Ork invasion on Imperial soil IS a direct provocation for war. If one country suddenly shows up on another’s front porch with tanks and artillery blazing, wouldn't you consider that direct provocation?

I'm sure space Marines don't just run in to any ol' battles, as that is the job of PDF, and Imperial Guard in the serious cases. Marines are called in when something is seriously at stake. Dark Eldar raiding an agri-world in the middle of nowhere-in-particular? Send in the PDF and be rid of them. Chaos cultists overthrowing Imperial rule and sacrificing thousands to try and call up some daemons, get me some Space Marines please!

 

And to your other question, about marines just going in, getting the job done, and leaving…yes, they can do that without getting in trouble. There is always another battle to be fought, another war to be won, and the Adeptus Astartes, few as they are, are all that’s holding the worst threats to mankind at bay. Plus, what Guard officer or Inquisitor in his right mind is going to try and stop a bunch of marines from just up and leaving? And why would they in the first place, as if anybody else has the combat experience of the Astartes. A rank-and-file tactical marine may end up knowing more about war than an Imperial Guard colonel. Plus, a Chapter of marines is something you simply DO NOT want to get on the bad side of.

 

EDIT:

If the Ultramarines decided to go get the Eldar, and I mean really come down on Alaitoc ... say, genocide level without telling anyone (Inquisitorial or lower level), then a massive Tyranid fleet appears and kicks Imperial forces to the curb ... what would happen to the Ultramarines for "doing their own thing"? A slap on the wrist because they are Space Marines? The Imperium of Man just got an ass kicking by some aliens and the Ultramarines were not there to respond - they acted against the needs of the Imperium to satisfy their own agenda?

 

In your example, one threat to the Imperium has been wiped out and some easily Imperial Guard did. The Eldar are close to extinction, and the loss of that craftworld would be a grevious loss. The Imperial Guard however... there's probably a billion and a half regiments in the Imperium, and new ones are raised daily somewhere. They are utterly expendable, and that's why the Imperium is still around. I'd call this a victory even if some IG got a smacking. Anyhow, Space Marines usually don't fight for their own motives, they fight for the good of the Imperium and the Emperor.

[Race Bannon]

After some research ...

 

The Adeptus Astartes is basically a separate entity to the rest of the Imperium.

Not true. They are the Adeptus Astartes. That title alone means they are part of the structure that is the Imperium. Specifically, the Adeptus Terra. From the BBB 3rd ed., pg. 111...

Adept is the title of a member of the Adeptus Terra the great Priesthood of Earth. It is used as a common form of address and acknowledgement of respect - hence its adoption by the Adeptus Astartes (Space Marines) and Adeptus Mechanicus (the Tech Priests of Mars).

 

But ...

They don't need to follow the orders of some Imperial Guard commander, no matter how high ranking. You don't tell them to help you in a war, you request their assistance, and the chapter will decide how much power they will send, where it's going, and when it will be there.

This is also true. Yet, If the High Lords (at most) were to provide orders the Space Marines would more than likely comply. At the least they would for the glory to function in His name.

 

From Rogue Trader, p.133:

Each Chapter has its own Commander, one of whom holds the title Master of Marines. Each Commander is subject to the orders of top-ranking members of the priesthood [Adeptus Terra] - but only in a general, non-military sense. So, whilst a Commander may receive orders to destroy a target, the means to be employed are left to the Commander - his only duty is to succeed! The Space Marines represent the Imperium's main strike-force of mobile warriors ...

 

SO ...

the Astartes live by their own rules.

Technically true.

 

But I don't think my question has been answered.

So, no, they aren't given direct orders when they go to war 95% of the time.

If Space Marines are not given orders to fight, then they just do it as the opportunity or whim occurs?

[Master of Sanctity]

Space Marine Chapters I thought were stand alone organisations with only maybe teh Inquisition being able to boss them about.

 

 

Even the Inquisition has no power over the Space Marine Chapters. If a Space Marine Chapter Master doesn't want to help an inquisitor, they don't have to. Granted, they might becausing themselves some problems if they refuse, but they still have that right. An Inquistor will have to lobby a Chapter Master with his cause to earn the honour of commanding Space Marines in battle. In other rare circumstances, there will be old oaths or bonds given that have lasted millenia and will be honoured right up to the present.

 

Space Marine Chapters can launch their own crusades, but very few chapters are large enough to do so in the same scale as full-on Imperial crusades. More often than not, they will join a Crusade. I remember in second edition they mentioned you could have a crusading army of Space Marines where each squad was a different chapter, but they all used "standard" marine rules. They would all have a campaign badge, the rest would be different. I always thought that would be a fun idea for an army.

[Nine_Breaker]

Not true. They are the Adeptus Astartes. That title alone means they are part of the structure that is the Imperium. Specifically, the Adeptus Terra. From the BBB 3rd ed., pg. 111...

I know the Astartes are technically part of the Imperium, which is why I threw the word 'basically' in there. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

If Space Marines are not given orders to fight, then they just do it as the opportunity or whim occurs?

 

In most cases, the Space Marines will simply jump in on a good fight they deem worthy of their prowess. So yes, they do often go to war just because they think it's the right thing to do, on a whim as you say. In some rare cases though, the Astartes are probably ordered into battle when the stakes are extremely high. For example, I'm sure several chapters were ordered to fight on and around Cadia during the 13th Black Crusade (even if they'd have done it anyways). Same with Armageddon, Badab Uprising, and Tyrannic Wars probably.

[Darrell]

Space Marines are a part of the Imperium, there's no doubt about that, however they tend to be given a lot more freedom and independence from regular Imperial rule. Many, many exceptions are made for Space Marines. For example, they can pretty much requisition any planet they want for a homeworld, regardless of who owns it. Space Marine worlds do not have to contribute to the Imperial Guard like other worlds do (Macragge does, but that's only because they choose to and they have the men for it). They do not pay tithes either, since the planetary tithes are the Space Marines themselves.

 

I don't think anyone short of the High Lords of Terra could really order a Space Marine to do anything. Commissars, Inquisitors, Imperial Guard Generals, the best they can do is ask for the Marines to assist. Sometimes there can be consequences for saying no, but I imagine there would also be consequences for demanding a Space Marine to do anything. For example, in the 3rd edition Codex there was the story about the Inquisitor uncovering a planetwide conspiracy to turn against the Imperium, and he put out a "general appeal for assistance". When the White Panthers arrived, the Inquisitor laid out what he thought would be a good plan. The Space Marines then ignored him and did their own thing (As far as I know, there were no consequences to this).

 

The Imperium has a hard enough time managing day-to-day affairs, they can't really take the time to manage the Space Marines and Imperial Guard, who are constantly being deployed all over space. I imagine it would not be uncommon for a Space Marine Chapter to go to war because "they want to"; ie, there is a need for their help. However, I'm sure they don't go charging off at every Dark Eldar raid or Ork attack. I believe each Chapter has their own way of gauging a battle as being worthy of their attention (I know in several Chapters, Librarians fill this role, and consult the Emperor's Tarot to determine where they should next deploy). Also, look at the story in the 3rd edition Codex of Tigurius telling Marneus of the dream he had that a great threat would come to Macragge. They begin preparing for war right away without consulting anyone else.

 

As long as the Space Marines are doing their duty, protecting the Imperium, I don't think people can complain if they're fighting Eldar instead of Tyranids, Tau instead of Necrons. There are 1,000 Chapters each 1,000 strong--they can't be expected to be everywhere. Many times, I am sure a Space Marine Chapter would respond to requests for assistance if the need was dire, but you can't really expect to order an eight foot killing machine to do anything. You politely ask it to, and let it decide for itself.

 

Of course, if an Inquisitor asks for aid and a Chapter turns them down, sometimes that can cause problems for that Chapter. Apothecaries can end up dead, they may find themselves subject to heresy investigation, maybe that supply line they were needing doesn't show up today.

 

All in all, Space Marines are pretty independent of the Imperium, hence why you see the extremely unorthodox methods employed by many of them. Does that mean there aren't Chapters that are more loyal to the Imperium? Of course not, I'm sure there could be at least ONE Chapter that would snap to its heels with a "Sir, yes sir!" anytime an Inquisitor or the like asked him to do something. However, they would still be required to operate largely independently of outside forces.

[Nine_Breaker]

Its good to note though that the Adeptus Astartes are still required to let the Inquisitors in from time to time for purity checks. Though these are only carried out when the chapters is suspected to contain some sort of taint (and some cases are looked over all together *cough*Space Wolves*cough*). Sure a chapter can tell the Inquisition to back off, but that could have some pretty dire health effects.

 

So the Astartes can basically do whatever they wont most of the time, but this doesn't mean they can do so all the time without consequence. Butt heads with the wrong person and the chapter in question might have to deal with an entire warfleet in their back yard and a bunch of Grey Knights/Adepta Sororitas knocking on their front door!

[Mrph45]

Theres fluff all over the place to say the marines choose when they battle or not. The ultramarines launch crusade into ork space influenced by Tiberius vision, the Dark Angels leaving battle at the apperance of inquisition (or in Angels of Darkness the Chaplain telling a naval ship that the admiral or the governor don't have influence over them, black templar crusades are most often self directed, the CF in Crimson Tears ignoring the tactical needs of the situation to hunt the erm fallen Soul Drinkers.

The Adeptus Astartes is a title not an exact organized piece of the imperiums chain of command. Treatys, ancient pacts, and honor will get a chapter to act. They will participate in what they see as worthy actions, and will sometimes follow a non marines orders (inquisitors), but the ultimate decison to give the orders lies in the chapter master himself to decide its course of action.

[Race Bannon]

The Adeptus Astartes is a title not an exact organized piece of the imperiums chain of command.

That is just not true.

 

So the Astartes can basically do whatever they wont most of the time

Treatys, ancient pacts, and honor will get a chapter to act. They will participate in what they see as worthy actions...

Is this the rule versus the exception?

 

Maybe, in the end, they just do what they want within undefinable limits. And it boils down to each Chapter. Some will act - on a whim. Some will act based on orders/treaties. Some will act for honor. Some for justice. Others for personal gain, goals and agendas.

 

And some for all of the above?

[Nine_Breaker]

Maybe, in the end, they just do what they want within undefinable limits. And it boils down to each Chapter. Some will act - on a whim. Some will act based on orders/treaties. Some will act for honor. Some for justice. Others for personal gain, goals and agendas.

 

And some for all of the above?

 

Exactly! :P

[Skjold Bloodmaw]

For example, in Grey Hunter, the SW novel, Logan Grimnar chooses to deploy eleven of the chapter's twelve companies to a planet that I can't recall the name of to eliminate chaos taint and take back Russ' spear, which was stolen from a great shrine.

 

So, really, nearly an entire chapter, much larger than 99% of other chapters, was deployed because of chaos desecrating a great artifact of the chapter's history. It would be my understanding that the Chapter Master is the full and unchallenged military commander of a Space Marine Chapter, and makes all final decisions on where, when, how and why his forces are deployed. I agree with some of the others that assistance of a chapter is requested, not demanded.

 

I am under the impression that they are a seperate entity from the Imperium's fighting forces, but are included in counting how many men it can bring to bare against an enemy.