Doghouse Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 As some of you may have guessed I'm a major league fan of the Heresy, love it to bits! I've noticed however that there is a bit of confusion as to what should be Pre-Heresy, Heresy and post-Heresy Marine equipment when making marines from these eras. What I'd like to do here is discuss what people think should be used when making these models, these aren't hard and fast rules but guidelines based on my own observations for modelling purposes. Pre-Heresy or Heresy Era? This seems to be a misunderstood title when it comes to the historical original twenty Imperial Legions. The problem lies, I feel with the understanding of armour variants and their place in the timeline. The impression I get is that people believe that anything from before the end of the Heresy is automatically Pre-Heresy, a term which seems to have come from the Forge World models. As a guideline the armour variants available to the Legions, MkI was used during the Wars of Unification and MkII - Mk IV were used up to the begining and during of the Heresy itself. So anything after MkIV would be Heresy Era and beyond. MkV was used during the during the Heresy due to supply problems for the MkIV armour and the Mk VI and Mk VII didn't come into play untill the final stages of the war. I personally think that the key to modelling Heresy/Pre-Heresy models is in the mass produced uniform nature of the pre-heresy Legion armour. I think it's most likely that the Legions were equiped enmasse with new armour and weapons (think "Attack fo the Clones" or the cover artwork of "False Gods" for inspiration). The way I see it is that as the millenia have passed since then the armour of the current marines would actually be more hotch-potch and embellished than the original Legions. Individual plates and helms being revered as ancient relics. Where as today the Chapters have bits of various armour variants on a single suit or a squad with several different variants it's much more likely that the Legions would be using one or two variants at most at a time. I think the new Heresy novels sum it up well (won't go into too much detail here to avoid spoiling the books for those that haven't read them), the age of the Pre-Heresy Great Crusade was a golden age for the Imperium devoid of superstition and faith in divinity for the most part it was a time of truth and enlightenment. A noble cause to re-unite the lost tribes of humanity. So Purity seals wouldn't really have been used either, except maybe the Word Bearers of course, but you could explain them away as "Oaths of the Moment" like in the novels for the other legions I guess. Needless to say the Imperial Aquila was only used by the Emperor's Children so any models with the Eagle on the chest are going to be restricted to the EC. Assault Marine bodies are perfect for MKV armour models by the way if you can remove the eagles wings. Vehicles As far as I can tell, the Land Raider, Predator Destructor, Whirlwind and Land Speeders were all around at the time of the Heresy. Land Raider Crusaders and Predator Annihilators came much later so wouldn't have been around. If you look at the Black Library Heresy artwork books the marines also had a Baneblade variant called the Fellblade, that might make for an interesting centre piece for an army using the FW Baneblade rules and model. Not sure about the Landspeeder variants though. The orignal models had a heavy bolter and and multi-melta and bikes and attack bikes were in use according to the Heresy Artwork books as were Rapiers. Wargear Tricky one this, Melta guns are out but Mulit-Meltas were used as far as I can tell, lightning claws (not sure about pairs though) were used but I'm not sure about powerfists as the Terminators had power weapons. I'm guessing Plasma Cannons weren't available as they've been left out of the Chaos Codex but Plasma guns were and jump packs were available in short supply. Assualt Cannons weren't around, Stormbolters are a bit sketchy as the Codex:CSM has them using combi-bolters but other sources such as the new novels have them in use. Cyclone Missile Launchers were in use according to the Heresy Artwork books. Any thoughts or other suggestions appreciated. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheep Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Good ideas, Plasma cannons were avalible to dreads, they were used as test beds for new weps for termies. Pairs of lightning claws are ok, horus used a pair, but maybe he was an exception. Cheers Sheep Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1038824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Loken Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Although the pre-heresy legions are in a time when the imperium was devoid of superstition, I still think there would be a diversity of armor. Even though there isn't the same level of iconification of wargear we see in the 41st M, the warriors of the PH Legions are still going to be honored to wear an older suit of armor worn by previous veterens of the legion. Remember although they certainly aren't as religious as modern marines, they still have a staunch sense of warrior pride and honor; their wargear is still their own not just a tool. So certainly there would be the kind of mass-produced armor you're talking about, but the more veteren warriors will almost certainly have more unique armor. As for modeling, I've found that plasticard and alittle green stuff is your best friend... here are some of my wip luna wolf armors: http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d180/sto...es/DSCN0281.jpg http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d180/sto...es/DSCN0311.jpg In terms of weaponry it depends on what legion we're talking about, but as you said no assault cannons or stormbolters (I think the books messed up on that one, but who knows maybe GW will back that and change their fluff). Also chainswords and bolters rule the day, although power swords (and fists and claws etc etc) are around they are alot less frequent. As for assault wepons flamers and meltas are good as is plasma, but is much more unreliable. Heavy weapons consist mainly of H.Bolters M.Launchers and Lascannons. Any other type of heavy generally isn't made for infantry usage. One thing that I can't find are pictures of what stormbirds look like, does anyone have them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1038854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rau le Creuset Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Assualt Cannons weren't around Take a look at the Artwork of Sabertooth, there are sometines a whole lot of assault cannons (even whole devastor squads), but this could be for experimental reasons. In the 3rd edition Chaos Codex it is stated, that Horus used an early version of the "imperial stormbolter" so this should be strictly limited perhaps fpr high ranking (or really high ranking) individuals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1038871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callas Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 No thunder hammers for Termies, either pre-Heresy or Heresy-era.Sometimes they were mounted on Dreadnoughts as the DCCW but they were at that stage way too big for a hand-held weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1038966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Hmmm No meltas, Fists, or thunder hammers spoil my plans for my "heresy feel" 13th Company. Are we certain there were no fists? I suppose I could model them as very large axes to heavy to swing at initiative but hard enough to be strength 8. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1038984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rau le Creuset Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Abaddon has a fist during his time as First Company Captain and I'm sure I saw others with power fists, so I don't see much of a problem at least for commanders/high ranked legion members. In addition the weapons used by the Custodes terminators look more like power fists than claws to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1038996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Thanks Rau. Now there's the thunder hammer and meltas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1039002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. V Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 from what i've heard, plasmas were in much larger supply (possibly why chaos can have so many). i was under the intentiuon that they are not as common now due to humanity's inability to reproduce them. As for meltas, i have no clue.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1039008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Pre-Heresy or Heresy Era?The impression I get is that people believe that anything from before the end of the Heresy is automatically Pre-Heresy, a term which seems to have come from the Forge World models. i think it actually came from the Index Astartes articles: all of which have "pre-heresy schemes" of which only 2 are shown on actual pre-heresy armour, and one of them is mislabelled as the wrong type.. Assault Cannons are a seriously hot topic, from their inception their fluff has been that they are a serious logistical expense and rather unreliable, the 2nd edition chaos codex stated that they were developed from the Reaper Autocannon, which the traitor legions preferred as it was more reliable.. some people (usually people who arent aware of the fluff regarding ass.cannons disposable barrels) take this to mean the ass.cannon was only in the experimental stages at the time of the heresy, but it sticks in my mind that the codex didnt actually state WHEN it was developed from the Reaper.. more recent fluff has stated that the Blood Angels discovered the Baal Pattern Predators STC early in the Great Crusade ~ the Horus Heresy art shows a fair few assault cannons Meltaguns Space Marine 1st edition had the meltagun as the standard tactical squad special weapon during the Heresy (no, Guilliman didnt invent the tactical squad..), no version of 40k has ever imposed any restriction on chaos accessing them (meltabombs and multi-meltas have been stated to be post heresy at various times, but its never been extended to meltaguns) Powerfists pretty sure these have always been around, pre/heresy terminators werent universally restricted to using them but they did exist, 2nd edition did give a particular power weapon a 50% markup for being post heresy, but i'm 93% certain it was the Power Sword not the power fist (reason being: putting a force field generator on a weapon/gauntlet to enable it to smash holes in walls & tanks = easy, making said force field generator light enough that the weapon can still be used defensively ala the 40k2e Power Sword rules = HARD) Land Speeders lots of conflicting fluff here, according to Space Marine 1st edition legions had more access to these than Predators and Land Raiders, and every Space Marine battalion had a pair as a recon asset, then 40k2e came along and stated all anti-grav tech was post-heresy.. the Horus Herest art seems to have gone with the original interpretation (regarding weapons, SM1e statted them as having a Meltagun and a Multimelta, the HH art shows a mix of multi-meltas, a few heavy flamers, a few ass.cannons, and a few unidentifiable weapons) Jump Packs same as Land Speeders really, SM1e stated had them as standard issue to all heresy era assault squads, then 40k2e came along and said they were post-heresy.. then 40k3e came along and said they were rare and unreliable.. the Horus Heresy art seems to have gone with the original interpretation (back when Lannes.co.uk still had the HH:CCG stuff i counted and the jump pack equipped ass.squads outnumbered non-equipped squads by at least 2 to 1) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1039179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted June 25, 2006 Author Share Posted June 25, 2006 Thanks for the feedback guys! :lol: Hmm, so I could get away with an assault cannon on my dreads then? Ok, what about scouts? The Heresy Artwork book shows several scout squads in power armour so were they fully fledged marines or did they use neophytes like in todays chapters? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1039243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoonman Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Look at the sketch in the SM codex of the UM legion... the dreaddies there have ACs, so why not? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1039251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Trask Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 You possibly could get away with that Doghouse. As far as Thunderhammers go (as ive noted that its not been tickled with) I was digging through my old Codices and rule books and found a scant mention of thunderhammers and why the forces of chaos dont use them as regards to foot soldiers. The answer is the powermace - the predecessor of the thunderhammer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1039260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badaab Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 From my understanding, the concept of Scouts or Neophytes wasn't really a reality until after the Heresy. Here's my rationale: -Legions were not limited in the number of members each could have, unlike under the Codex, which limits chapters to 1000 members (plus support staff), so generating new, fully-fledged marines as fast as possible would have been a good idea. However, with some of the less-stable gene stock you got a higher number of mutations or the tendency towards genetic accidents (for example, the Black Rage, Space Wolves with pointy teeth, the Thousand Sons having such a high percentage of psykers in their ranks, etc.). -Since marines were in effect expendable during the Great Crusade (as armies were trying to conquer as much territory as fast as possible)- why even bother making scouts? If your army is the throw-away Soviet variety, why bother training recruits to a higher standard? Just get them out as fast as possible, and maybe only then train the ones with promise or potential beyond battlefield experience. Anyhoo, that's my rank on the subject. At very least, if you want to include scouts, I'd lean more towards the Black Templar way of incorporating them as Neophytes training alongside proper marines, rather than specialized squads with different equipment. -Joe Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1039286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 i wouldnt have scouts, instead go with a veteran squad with infiltrate as a skill or something similar to represent them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1039308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 You possibly could get away with that Doghouse. As far as Thunderhammers go (as ive noted that its not been tickled with) I was digging through my old Codices and rule books and found a scant mention of thunderhammers and why the forces of chaos dont use them as regards to foot soldiers. The answer is the powermace - the predecessor of the thunderhammer. So during Heresy and pre-heresy they had power maces v/s thunderhammers? :wub: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1039395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Loken Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Scouts and their usage depends upon the legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/90284-modelling-the-heresy-era-legions/#findComment-1039484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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