Collaborative Chapter Creation Project II

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Axe could be the metaphor of their combat doctrine. They are preparing long and precisely before the attack on the planet, but when they do strikes is leads to total destruction of the enemy and first battle is most often the last battle.

[Rogue Trader]

Useless fact for War Bearers:

 

The Whirlwind Hyperios attached to the first company is called 'Ferrus Annihilatus' [from Imperial Armour: Vol II]

 

Not so useless conclusion:

 

Could they be successors of the Iron Hands, hence the reference to Ferrus (manus)?

[Ferrata]

Or it means "Iron Annihilated", or similar :ph34r: A Whirlwind would suggest a none Combat force though.

[Sigismund Himself]

Maybe their style of warfare is to destroy everything in one blow because with an axe you will only get one good, strong swing if the other guy is armed with a sword or something before you get killed (unless it's a grot or a IG you're facing :ph34r: ). Maybe a tank heavy force? I like the idea of them having "the end justifies the means" in latin as their chapter motto/warcry. This sounds like it will get very interesting.

cheers

Edited July 11, 2006 by Sigsimund Himself

[Cpt_Tiberius]

I like the total war approach as well. Sort of like the Marines Malevolent. "We are here to crush the enemy, all other concerns are secondary." As for the axe being a symbol of veteran status, sounds good to me.

 

Among some Slavic people notably among the Croats axe is a symbol of veteran soldiers that have fought long and hard and were awarded land and rights by their lords.

 

As an option we could have them use Slavic names instead of the over used Roman/Germanic/Norse.

[Heru]

In truth neither the colour scheme nor the Chapter Badge really appeal to me personally (I've seen crossed axes in so many Computer games[Myth The Fallen Lords] and on David Gemmell book covers which makes it rather plain to me), but if this is the Chapter the majority wants I'll be happy to contribute where possible.

 

 

So ok now with that out of the way here's just a random idea contribution...

Rather than just giving them (War Bearers) normal axes for rank status, perhaps it would be better to give them either Master-crafted ones, or counts as Lightning Claws ones. The latter meaning that say a Captain could have two of these axes and count as armed with Twin Lightning Claws (two axes like the Chapter badge).

[Darrell]

I don't think we need to limit ourselves to just axe weaponry. The Storm Warriors have a sword in their heraldry; surely we wouldn't suggest they use only power swords, and come up with all the different ways to use swords to replace powerfists and the like?

 

One interesting thing I noticed when looking at the heraldry is that the axes are crossed. Have you ever seen some old European movie and some royal guards are around as the hero approaches to speak to the Royal Noble Whatshisface, and before he walks past they cross their weapons? Generally they're crossing halberds, but it makes much the same shape. It's a way of saying "Thou shalt not pass".

 

Perhaps the War Bearers are the Imperium's first line. Stationed on the verge of friendly/unfriendly space, they form the crossed-weapons barrier that prevents enemies from first striking into the Imperium. When an enemy wishes to penetrate the Imperium, they must first go through the War Bearers.

[Severus6]

The crossed axes are also a symbol of "breachers" or "sappers". Generally professionals and veterans of many campaigns who were responsible for clearing the way for follow on forces. I dont think we should rule out them being a non codex Chapter as of yet. Based on the "feel" and overall "attitude" that we want to instill in them,...that should be the basis of the traits.

 

Severus6

[Keyoz Devastrius]

I would like to give them soldier feel, similar to modern army- tanks and aircrafts are the main force, infantry in APC

[Hrvat]

Is their actualy a need for traits. Can't we just create a chapter that is slightly non-codex without going into traits. Apsolutly any army feeling can be achived with the normal list.

 

I had and ideafor their primary modus operandi

 

Whirlwinds provide constant covering fire with land raiders spearheding the offensive with as large groups of marines obliterating everything in their path leaving scorched earth.

[Zhivago]

Hmm, that is one option. Or then they could be codex force so that all means of war are well studied and practised. Most suitable is chosen. (As long as leads to utter annihilation of the enemy)

 

people here are suggesting relentless, all ut army that attacks like an ax, creating huge amount of destruction and then leaving. This suits for fleet based chapter as they are likely to have access to many shps with bombardment cannons.

[Commissar Molotov]

Ferrata's idea that the chapter 'bears' the weight of war so that the civilians of the Imperium do not have to strikes me as a very interesting one. It lends well to the idea of a very noble, self-sacrificing chapter, an idea I'd like very much to instil. I'm not so sure about them being 'depressive', because that strikes me as a tad tiresome and perhaps overdone. They can be dutiful and acknowledge that it is their weight to bear without being all 'woe is me!'

[Keyoz Devastrius]

I was thinking about the resemblance of Blood Axes clan symbol and War Bearers chapter badge.

 

The Blood Axes have picked up many human traits and tactics so maybe they did the same with their symbol?

 

After a great battle against War Bearers Blood Axes Warlord has changed their symbol from a single two bladed axe into two crossed axes to resemble that of War Bearers chapter badge as he believed that symbol was the source of their strength.

 

Just a thought :)

Edited July 12, 2006 by Keyoz Devastrius

[Big Woop]

Why not make them strictly utilitarian and professional, a little like spartans? It can be inerpreted by outsiders as depressive, but it's more like the esprit de corps of modern proffesional armies. Other chapters might criticize them for their lack of heraldry and chivalric traditions.

 

Using slavic names sounds good. But one shouldn't overdo it, IMO a name in this setting should mostly stick within the western european/anglo-saxon sphere. If all the marines had names like Vyatcheslav Kozlov you would have to spend alot of time explaining why, the same if they were called Gianluigi Modigliani.

[Ferrata]

I think you should leave the discussion of whether traits should be taken or not, and if so what traits can be left right to the end. We don't want the Combat Doctrine forming around the traits do we now?

 

I also think you need to place more thought into the piece of fluff RT gave, seeing as this is the only official piece of fluff you have on the Chapter. Are they Iron Hand gene-seed? If so how has this effected them? Do they have a similiar theory on weakness of the body?

[Archangelus]

Is not the Hyperios an anti-aircraft weapon? Maybe the War Bearers fought in a campaign or war where enemy aircraft (Ork fighta-bommers? Chaos Hell Tallons?) were used heavily against them.

 

Maybe in halting an offensive similar to the one in "Double Eagle" by Dan Abnett.

 

The Hyperios is a specialist item in the SM armoury. This hints at War Bearers being very well equipped and efficient. Getting the job done by using the right tools. Remember: the axe is first and foremost a useful tooln; not to mention that it was one of the first ones after the knife (sharp bit of rock). Its weapon function comes secondary.

 

This could also push more towards pure codex organisation and tactics, as they would not limit their options unnecessarily.

 

I start seeing them as being very pragmatic. "War is a necessity in the 41st Millenium, so we may just as well be good at it and use it to our advantage."

 

 

What do you think?

[Hrvat]

"War is a necessity in the 41st Millenium, so we may just as well be good at it and use it to our advantage."

 

I like this.

[ironloki]

I would also have to second the idea about leaving Traits until the very end. I am normally dead against using traits to forge a chapter. Traits should be shaped by the chapter not the other way around.

 

I like the idea of Slavic names. Would be very different.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

The Slavic names seem cool but they cant be only Slavic. We want them to be fleet based chapter and taking recruits from different planets ,right? Only one name type would suggest the opposite-taking recruits from one planet or system, unless they are changing their name to a Slavic one after becoming a battle brother.

 

After seeing Rogue Traders post first thing I thought was that the name of a whirlwind is quite irrelevant ,but then I thought that Space Marines are warrior monks and would not give an war machine, specially something so rare as Whirlwind Hyperios name that would not mean something. 'Ferrus Annihilatus' could mean something like Iron Destroyer in High Gothic but it could also mean a weapon destroying enemies in Ferrus Manus name. I was seeing them as UM successors but now I have dubs. I think we should discuss it or have a voting.

[Grimdarkness]

Is not the Hyperios an anti-aircraft weapon? Maybe the War Bearers fought in a campaign or war where enemy aircraft (Ork fighta-bommers? Chaos Hell Talons?) were used heavily against them.

 

Maybe in halting an offensives similar to the one in "Double Eagle" by Dan Abnett.

 

The Hyperios is a specialist item in the SM armoury. This hints at War Bearers being very well equipped and efficient. Getting the job done by using the right tools. Remember: the axe is first and foremost a useful tool; not to mention that it was one of the first ones after the knife (sharp bit of rock). Its weapon function comes secondary.

 

This could also push more towards pure codex organisation and tactics, as they would not limit their options unnecessarily.

 

I start seeing them as being very pragmatic. "War is a necessity in the 41st Millennium, so we may just as well be good at it and use it to our advantage."

 

 

What do you think?

 

I like the idea well put.

 

I too was gone to comment on the fact of the axes dual use as well first off the axe was a tool then a weapon. it and the pike are the most easily used of weapons for the common solider so maybe a chapter that completes it's goals by the most basic or simple means. Maybe the chapter see them selfs as both a tool and a weapon?

 

Maybe we should just have them as a vanilla force for now before deciding on there history and ways of war before deciding a chapters combat doctrine based solely on a colour scheme and a chapter icon. remember that the Imp fists are associated with the thunder hammer and yet they have a long history of duelling and swordsmanship and there chapter icon has no hammer in it.

[Ferrata]

The Slavic names seem cool but they cant be only Slavic. We want them to be fleet based chapter and taking recruits from different planets ,right? Only one name type would suggest the opposite-taking recruits from one planet or system, unless they are changing their name to a Slavic one after becoming a battle brother.

Or you could have them recruit from one Planet and have a homeworld, something I personally think is much harder to do and makes the chapter better.

 

After seeing Rogue Traders post first thing I thought was that the name of a whirlwind is quite irrelevant ,but then I thought that Space Marines are warrior monks and would not give an war machine, specially something so rare as Whirlwind Hyperios name that would not mean something. 'Ferrus Annihilatus' could mean something like Iron Destroyer in High Gothic but it could also mean a weapon destroying enemies in Ferrus Manus name. I was seeing them as UM successors but now I have dubs. I think we should discuss it or have a voting.

You can't make the only piece of fluff you have on the chapter irrelevant. If you had loads of background on them, sure you could just ignore it, but along with the Colour scheme, name and symbol, this is all you have.

[Rogue Trader]

By the same token, you don't have to blow it out of proportion ;) It is only the name of a tank, and it could very well just mean Iron Destroyer, but it never hurts to throw the idea out there and knock it about a bit, see what interesting spin it might give you on the ideas you already have :P

[Hrvat]

About the Slavic names there don't have to be their original names but ones given to them when they join the Chapter. When you join up you sever all your former bonds and start anew.

 

When considering Slavic names they offer great diversity since there are rougly 5 groups of names depending to what slavic language group they belong.

[ironloki]

About the Slavic names there don't have to be their original names but ones given to them when they join the Chapter. When you join up you sever all your former bonds and start anew.

 

My thoughts exactly. You give up your former life and name and become part of a new machine.

[Barret]

Ahoy,

 

I have to say, I'm very excited by this project, as I've been looking really hard at the War Bearers for a while now. Despite their complete lack of development, something about their name and iconography is really interesting.

 

The idea of a chapter that psychologically 'bears' the weight of the Imperium's war is a really interesting one, provided it could be done without injecting fatalism (like the Lamenters) or pessimism (Dark Angels) into them. Like Archangelus said, war's what they do and that's what they do. The attitude of soldiers, of grunts, rather than warriors, perhaps.

 

I think the axe symbolism is important (it's their defining symbol, after all) and should be developed. Even just showing a preference for using poweraxes instead of powerswords would be a good start. It doesn't need to go so far as to say, only axe-like weapons must be used to 'count as' powerfists, LCs, etc, but just keeping that visual theme strong.

 

To follow that up, I really like the idea of the axe being a symbol not just of preferred weaponry, but of attitude. The idea of the axe as a tool first and a weapon also ties in well with that attitude of "This is what we do". It's pragmatic, serious. Duty doesn't have to mean overarching piety or displays of valour. Heroes don't necessarily win wars, it's the grunts in the trenches with the rifles that do.

 

I've always liked the saying (which I'm probably going to mis-quote) "You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win by making the other bastard die for his." Perhaps this would work well as a kind of guiding 'motto' (not the official one, obviously) or theme for the chapter the fluff development?

 

As for the potential Iron Hands-link, I don't think there's anything constrictive or to be avoided about it. A chapter's gene-seed has little to nothing to do with their outlook or behaviour (BA aside). Anybody remember that gene-seed discussion Aurelius Rex started before the crash? If the War Bearers weren't trained by or in heavy contact with the Iron Hands, whose to say they'd have the same attitude? Even if they do follow after the Iron Hands, maybe the attitude towards bionics has morphed into, following with their more pragmatic outlook, a belief that the gaining of bionics is simply a measurable way to improve a Marine's ability to do what he is meant to do (ie, kill), rather than being an almost religious occurance. They welcome augmentation, but do not seek it actively (as that would also mean deliberately endangering oneself more than necessary, and a soldier who does that also endangers his fellow soldiers unnecessarily). To simply write off the only piece of fluff there is seems...wasteful, almost. Besides, even if the War Bearers have no resemblance to the Iron Hands beyond honouring their Primarch, how is that any differant than if they were Ultramarines Successors? At least saying they're using IH gene-seed provides an immedeate, if small, sense of distinction.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Barret