Old, but not experienced ... polite-rant

[Monkey Garage]

darwin is rolling over in his grave...

[mario]

I should probably clarify something: The use of the word "pathetic" was based on the idea of giving trophies to mediocrity. The idea behind this thread sounds misguided to me. Pathetic is probably not the right word for the feeling (I haven't found the right word in my first language so should I find the right translation for that) but if you mix it with a bit of "misguided" then you get near it. The idea seems to be based on the need for some statue and what this statue symbolizes (see Joker's reply to my post).

 

Now that leads me to Joker's post: You wrote about your motivation and that is probably shared by many other people. But a competition themed about mediocrity doesn't share much with your motivation. That's what I meant with "drybrushed resin statue hunting". The idea of a competiton for people who can't compete at top level just to give them some statues too.

 

Starks333: You are right tosome degree but then in some lower leagues you have other restrictions. You can't just fly so some city and start playing football there in any team. The trainer selects the peole who play. You don't have some junior team from France playing in the german junior league or something like that. These leagues are organized different. Theshort version being that you start at the bottom somewhere and work your way up. And it's not your qualification that gives you the cance for a price but the trainer. So you get chosen to participate in an exclusive competition (be it low or high level). This sounds rather muddy becauese I don't know where you are from and how your leagues work. But these league are all restricted somehow. Try to see it more abstract: If you have a miniature painting competition then anyone can enter forthe most part. Some have junior competition and some have aditional exclusive area for people who have already won in last years competition.

 

What should they do? Taking the Golden Daemon as an example: Force everyone who ever won a trophy to move on to some exclusive "winners comeptition" where they fight it out and ban them from regular competition so the averageguys have a chance? Then the regular competition becomes a qualifying event for the big one. That way you would funnel the average painters in the "big comp" where they again lose to the "pros". Wow, what fun! It's the same as before just that you have one additional step. And if you wouldhave some judges who chose people on personal preference (like a team-coach) for the competition then you don't have an open and accessible competition anymore.

 

I think Jester called it: "As for a lower level competition, the logistics would be hard to manage- ie who was qualified and who wasn't." (much shorter than my rant ;) )

 

Starks333 (next post): I can paint ok, but not GD level (more knowledge than practice + lack of long term motivation ;) ). And I personally don't like the Youngbloods category. So I don't discriminate against older newbies. ;) I am against the whole idea of special categories.

 

Damn, I should have read all the other replies first. That would have saved me a lot of typing as a lot of people have bits that I agree with. I could just have written "See post #, line x" ten times :lol: .

[BadKarma703]

honestly in my opinion competing in contests is all bs unless they are like fun ones on here. be happy with the models you paint. paint your army to the best of your ability and love them for being the way they look. maybe you dont paint like a pro but its ok. you paint to the standard you can and eventually you will get better, but then there are some people who just dont. art is one of those wierd things that some people can do very well and some cant, but you shouldnt be glum because you arnt a pro. my models are are not anywhere near the grade of some of the things on here but they are mine and thats what makes me love them. its just in all reality competition no matter what anyone says is all about winning and losing, theres nothing more to it and yeah its great to be a winner but then it sucks to be a loser. i just avoid that situation and sit here and say i aint no golden deamon winner but i love my models for how they look because they are mine and no one paints them like the way i do. just be happy with how you paint and the lvl your at and eventually if the emperor wills its you will become better.

[Hemal]

I tend to work on the premise that every model I paint will make me a better modeller or painter. I have got better, though I was ok to begin with, I am quite good at art, but not so good at painting 3-d models

 

I do agree that you should be happy with what you can acheive, but with the proviso that you should always strive to acheive more each time you paint. Experimet, try your luck with different techniques etc. The art of minature painting just requires a steady eye and some foundation rules to provide solid paint-jobs, then the step up in level is through using advanced techniques. Look at Boltman's tutorial on Magnatrox...that is excellent because it shows the step-by-step techniques to acheive the finish.

 

Ok, so if your brush coordination is as shaky as a hippo on stilts, then you are in trouble executing the technique, but the technique itself is just a methodology, if you have a steady hand abd a good eye for detail, you should be fine

[zain]

well boltmans a great example he wasn't world class but as he practiced he became amazing.

If you practace enough you'll get better and better. The way I practace is I have a friend who struggles with painting so ever so often I offer to paint one for him.

Try your best and enter and remember there's always next year

heck I'm 15 and entering loads of catogorys

 

What? Boltman's a terrible example, Magmatrax was like his 15th model, and like I said, he won a B&C painting competiton with what were I believe his very first models. He was amazing right off the bat.

sorry I should have said he greatly improved

as it says here in his magmatrix artical

http://www.hobbyhawk.com/Tutorials/MagmatraxTutorial.html

which is incredibly useful I may add thanks BOLTMAN

[mortiferum]

What should they do? Taking the Golden Daemon as an example: Force everyone who ever won a trophy to move on to some exclusive "winners comeptition" where they fight it out and ban them from regular competition so the averageguys have a chance? Then the regular competition becomes a qualifying event for the big one. That way you would funnel the average painters in the "big comp" where they again lose to the "pros". Wow, what fun! It's the same as before just that you have one additional step. And if you wouldhave some judges who chose people on personal preference (like a team-coach) for the competition then you don't have an open and accessible competition anymore.

 

'Funnelling'......... Hmmm...actually I think there 'might' be something here - though I haven't thought it through throroughly (sp?).

 

I think this could be the start of a 'ranking / level / handicap' painting system'. :D

 

Bear with me on this and I'll try to explain by way of a made up example.

 

10 painted minatures (for sake of argument single marine minature) from different people are submitted as entrants to the painting compitition (entry Level 5).

 

the 10 models are judged by a panel and 1st,2nd,3rd and 8th,9th,10th poisitions are determined, Those in positions 1,2,3 move a level (level 6) and 8th, 9th 10th move down (Level 4)

 

You can only compete within your level (which would act as a ranking system!) each time with a new entry model, i.e. you can't use the same model more than once, this forces you to paint your next entry model to a (hopefully) better level if you were looking to climb rankings, improve handicap etc.

 

Over the course of time the top painters (Boltman / Commander Y etc...) would climb to the top of the ladder, the 'less paint articulate' would drop levels and the mediorce painters would 'hover' around mid point.

 

Then again perhaps there's already a ranking system etc. source available that I just don't know about, would CMON ratings be appropriate indicators of peoples skills with a paintbrush?

 

With regards to the OP this would indeed allow him to compete versus similar skilled painters.

 

Just a 'wild' thought I'm throwing out in the open.

 

Morty

[Monkey Garage]

 

What should they do? Taking the Golden Daemon as an example: Force everyone who ever won a trophy to move on to some exclusive "winners comeptition" where they fight it out and ban them from regular competition so the averageguys have a chance? Then the regular competition becomes a qualifying event for the big one. That way you would funnel the average painters in the "big comp" where they again lose to the "pros". Wow, what fun! It's the same as before just that you have one additional step. And if you wouldhave some judges who chose people on personal preference (like a team-coach) for the competition then you don't have an open and accessible competition anymore.

 

'Funnelling'......... Hmmm...actually I think there 'might' be something here - though I haven't thought it through throroughly (sp?).

 

I think this could be the start of a 'ranking / level / handicap' painting system'. ;)

 

Bear with me on this and I'll try to explain by way of a made up example.

 

10 painted minatures (for sake of argument single marine minature) from different people are submitted as entrants to the painting compitition (entry Level 5).

 

the 10 models are judged by a panel and 1st,2nd,3rd and 8th,9th,10th poisitions are determined, Those in positions 1,2,3 move a level (level 6) and 8th, 9th 10th move down (Level 4)

 

You can only compete within your level (which would act as a ranking system!) each time with a new entry model, i.e. you can't use the same model more than once, this forces you to paint your next entry model to a (hopefully) better level if you were looking to climb rankings, improve handicap etc.

 

Over the course of time the top painters (Boltman / Commander Y etc...) would climb to the top of the ladder, the 'less paint articulate' would drop levels and the mediorce painters would 'hover' around mid point.

 

Then again perhaps there's already a ranking system etc. source available that I just don't know about, would CMON ratings be appropriate indicators of peoples skills with a paintbrush?

 

With regards to the OP this would indeed allow him to compete versus similar skilled painters.

 

Just a 'wild' thought I'm throwing out in the open.

 

Morty

 

right...but there will always be people that take 1st, 2nd, 3rd and at some point those people will not be ready for "level 6". then the next one they get bumped back down to 5, then back up to 6...it all sounds very tedious

 

oh...

 

throroughly (sp?).

to many "r"s, but other than that, good job :D

[mortiferum]

right...but there will always be people that take 1st, 2nd, 3rd and at some point those people will not be ready for "level 6". then the next one they get bumped back down to 5, then back up to 6...it all sounds very tedious

 

Right..for sure.. so those individuals would atleast know they were level 5/6 - hopefully with each succesive entry it will always be a little better, soon they will become solid level 6's (i.e positions 4, 5, 6, 7) and then they will be gunning for their next increment :)

 

Appreciate your comment regarding it being 'tedious' though - but hey you can't have it all, at least its a start and individuals can start to rank there models against the world. personally I'd love to find out if I were a level 10 (wishful thinking) or even if I suck real bad and am level minus 5 (most likely :D ) ;)

 

 

oh...

 

throroughly (sp?).

to many "r"s, but other than that, good job ;)

 

thanks for the english lesson :D ;)

[-Q-]

You can already rank your models against the world... post them up on CoolMiniOrNot yeah? Serves all of the purpose you seem to be looking for only without giving prizes to people that aren't the best.

[Boltman]

well boltmans a great example he wasn't world class but as he practiced he became amazing.

If you practace enough you'll get better and better. The way I practace is I have a friend who struggles with painting so ever so often I offer to paint one for him.

Try your best and enter and remember there's always next year

heck I'm 15 and entering loads of catogorys

 

What? Boltman's a terrible example, Magmatrax was like his 15th model, and like I said, he won a B&C painting competiton with what were I believe his very first models. He was amazing right off the bat.

 

 

My ears are ringing... :D

 

Yes some of my first models were in that B&C contest, and that contest got me addicted to the higher echelons of painting, that is, trying to really improve. But keep in mind that each model I made took about 20 hours to get to that. I learned like heck and the result was very good for first models, but I earned it by making few models and spending lots of time on each to improve and fix. I think the shortest route to improvement is, ironically, taking the most time on each model. Low productivity, high learning curve.

 

Be careful with Coolminiornot rankings, they can discourage, and it is about popularity of a model, not necessarily quality of result. When I first posted my marines I got 6.5-7.0's, yet in the context of the B&C they were much better. CMON can be cruel to those to start off and wish to learn.

 

As for a lower level painting contest, I think it impossible to monitor efficiently. I understand it's a great motivation to compete in a contest when you think you stand a decent chance, and some aren't at that level yet. But the motivation should be in the learning process. Perhaps a contest where the entrants would show their best work, and those contestants would be followed as they go through the process of painting a unit of 5, one by one, each time with a specific request from the judge. For instance, the first model needs to have real metallic paint, shaded etc. Second model needs to be mostly painted green. Next one must have skintone, etc. With each the judge could give specific pointers and judge according to how the contestant learned and applied the techniques. Problem is, you need a judge, and one with lots of time... Hmm, I wonder if I could pull that off... And you need a limited amount of contestants with the true desire to learn, with no regards to progressing their current army. What do you guys think, could that system work? How could it be improved?

 

This could be a great occasion to teach and learn...

 

Boltman

[ixupi]

Perhaps a contest where the entrants would show their best work, and those contestants would be followed as they go through the process of painting a unit of 5, one by one, each time with a specific request from the judge. For instance, the first model needs to have real metallic paint, shaded etc. Second model needs to be mostly painted green. Next one must have skintone, etc. With each the judge could give specific pointers and judge according to how the contestant learned and applied the techniques. Problem is, you need a judge, and one with lots of time... Hmm, I wonder if I could pull that off... And you need a limited amount of contestants with the true desire to learn, with no regards to progressing their current army. What do you guys think, could that system work? How could it be improved?

 

This could be a great occasion to teach and learn...

 

Boltman

 

Sorry, alot of us youngin's to the painting field were raised by your words, kinda like a dad in that sense. :) So sorry if we throw your name out there casually 'pop.'

 

All joking aside...

 

I was thinking of a similiar idea myself. Not in a context sense though...but it'd be kind of hard. You'd have to have people willing to buy the model and be able to take 'okay' quality pictures to be effective. Hell, i'd gladly take the time to help people if enough were interested. Literally do a step by step with their models and help them get results they are more satisfied with. I'd be all for it, i'm a sucker when it comes to throwing in my two cents. How does that sound? Hmm..

[AlteriusMotive]

what i dont get is why some people dislike the idea of a intermidiate level painting comp. Puttin up beginners against some of the pros is like sending out a imp gaurd gainst a defiler and saying Oh, and could you bring me back a late`? I mean, I'd be put to shame against the majority of the boards painters. I recon its a good idea, onward.

[mario]

what i dont get is why some people dislike the idea of a intermidiate level painting comp. Puttin up beginners against some of the pros is like sending out a imp gaurd gainst a defiler and saying Oh, and could you bring me back a late`? I mean, I'd be put to shame against the majority of the boards painters. I recon its a good idea, onward.

How do you think that the pros did it? Did they just enter the first miniature they painted and *ding* Daemon trophy one (repeat as needed). They were newbies too, they worked hard and they succeded at some point. What's the problem with losing against good painters? Is it somehow "more bad" than losing against average or bad painters? At least you know what to aim for and you can ask for some tips and tricks.

[Hemal]

And how can you say someone is an "average" painter? I've never posted my work on the board, but some of you may think I'm good, though I'm certainly not Daemon standard (yet). So am I average?

[pinkbunny]

a possibility is that one couldnt enter any other catagories if they enter the n00b one.

 

that would deter most good painters who want a shot at the sword, it's still not a good idea

 

try entering a decently converted and painted army into the GT, you have a good chance of getting shown off if it is distinctive

[Lord Humongous]

Bicycle racing uses a graded system for competiton, where higher (actually numerically lower) grades earn bigger pizes. Most racing sports are similar. Basically, you can't advance a grade unless you compete (sometimes win) a certain number of times in the lower grade.

 

The issue in this case is, its not that there's no painting contests for novice painters, asside from young bloods. Its that there's no real grading of any sort, asside from the fact that generally only very dedicated painters travel to and enter the big-time contests.

[ixupi]

Bicycle racing uses a graded system for competiton, where higher (actually numerically lower) grades earn bigger pizes. Most racing sports are similar. Basically, you can't advance a grade unless you compete (sometimes win) a certain number of times in the lower grade.

 

The issue in this case is, its not that there's no painting contests for novice painters, asside from young bloods. Its that there's no real grading of any sort, asside from the fact that generally only very dedicated painters travel to and enter the big-time contests.

 

Horrible example. Seeing as how the process of painting is quite different than bicycling... It'd be hard to do ANY sort of scale, because you'd have to have a 'score keeper' to keep points based on a scoring system you'd need to create, etc. This also means you'd have to have a MUCH larger volume of contests to give everyone a chance to get in on the contests. Not to mention that 99% of the painters here, paint as a hobby and don't get paid for it...and even then those that ARE painting for a living, are busy...painting for a living. So to dish out the money/time to compete so often would be a hassle and the hobby would lose it's fun aspect.

 

Can't we just leave it like it is?

[AlteriusMotive]

Yeah, but it's not like this'll be the golden demon. Just a chance for people that might feel deterd from enter comps because the opposition is overwhelming to get a feel for a comp and enjoy the critics of people of the same level. Not to be handing them on the silver plater, but I know myself that when I started out paint (even tho I'm not a fantastic painter, Yet) looking at others work kind of put me down and that mini I was proud of became the mini I loathed the most. So I think it is a good idea, for painters not to be put under pressure and follow along the road to glory.

[dragonforge]

At any given time there are 2-3 online painting contests going on somewhere. You will need to watch sites like CMON and Frothers and such to find them but online contests like that are good places to post your work and see how you do.

 

But yes I agree no one is going to take the time to run a contest for "Average" painters.

[ixupi]

The only point of having an 'average' painting contest would be one of the two following reasons:

 

1: You need to feel you are the best 'average' painter out there, needing some sort of recognition like an award or title.

 

Or

 

2: You don't want to improve any and at the same time don't want to embarassed by losing against people way above your level.

 

That's all a painting contest is, a gathering of painters to compete to win. It's really all about winning. Whether you believe it or not. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be an award and there wouldn't be other people wanting to win. So being an amature painter myself, no I don't need recognition for how mediocre I am. I want to earn 'the real deal' and have fun with the fellow board brothers on the side, testing out new ideas and BS'ing. That's why we have these online contests, for the people who can't/don't want to go to the major league. It still gives us a chance to show something we're proud of. So if you REALLY think you're painting is that horrible and are too afraid to man up and take a loss to benefit from it. Then maybe you should just not worry about competing. You know the old saying: "If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

 

All that aside, if someone believes that strongly in this idea why not go ahead and do it? Hell, I'd even offer my hand to help. I'm just saying, it's more of an embarassment in my eyes to win the 'average painters award' than it is to lose to 'the best.'