Speculative List of Founding Dates

[Chinchillapimp]

I

[Ferrata]

I also have compiled a similar list, although mine was done with little research and purely mathamatical. I would be intrested to know why you chose certain dates for foundings instead of spacing them evenly.

 

Founding/Yours/Mine/Difference
01	400.M29	400.M29	=
02	000.M31	000.M31	=
03	000.M32	000.M32	=
04	200.M32	200.M32	= 
05	400.M32	450.M32	+50
06	600.M32	700.M32	+100
07	700.M32	900.M32	+200
08	900.M32	100.M33	+200
09	100.M33	350.M33	+250
10	200.M33	550.M33	+350 
11	400.M33	800.M33	+400
12	600.M33	000.M34	+400
13	800.M33	200.M34	+400
14	000.M34	450.M34	+450
15	200.M34	650.M34	+450
16	500.M34	900.M34	+400
17	800.M34	100.M35	+300
18	200.M35	350.M35	+150
19	600.M35	550.M35	-50
20	800.M35	800.M35	=
21	100.M36	000.M36	-100
22	500.M36	150.M37	+650
23	000.M38	300.M38	+300
24	500.M39	450.M39	-50
25	700.M40	600.M40	-100
26	738.M41	738.M41	=

 

221.M33 Founding of the Howling Griffons 10/8-9

598.M35 Founding of the Astral Claws 19/19

[Chinchillapimp]

I intentionally adjusted some of the dates so that there was less of a pattern. While there is a certain anal-ness that I can appreciate to laying out the dates according to a formula, it seems completely counter to the fluff to have exact spacing between the foundings. Rarely in any large bureaucracy does anything happen with a consistent pattern, let alone the largest empire ever created by humans. There would be countless factors influencing exactly when the High Lords would make the call to establish the next founding. Is there something in the fluff that would make the foundings seem planned millennium ahead of time?

 

To recap my process:

GW stated definitively only a handful of exact dates for foundings, 2nd, 3rd, 26th. They also give a very specific time for the 21st founding: immediately before the Age of Apostasy in early M26. This means that for whatever reason, the number of foundings plummeted after the 21st founding. I considered that perhaps the disastrous nature of the cursed founding caused the High Lords of Terra to cut back on foundings, but it doesn't seem likely, as the pattern of gene-seed irregularities wouldn't have been documented and disseminated until many centuries later, long after another founding would be due. It seems more likely to me that the number of foundings simply declined over time, so by M41 the foundings are happening more than one millennium apart.

 

After I added all of the known dates to the timeline, I spaced them out in a roughly decreasing pattern. Six in M32, five in M33, four in M34, and three in M35. I then nudged them by a century here and there so that some of the other known dates aligned with the list.

 

Once all available official founding dates were somehow part of it, I looked at other events not related to the foundings, such as the dates of Black Crusades and other galactic events. I again nudged some of the dates to fall soon after those events.

 

The rest of the dates I was intentionally sloppy about dating so to give the dates the organic feel I discussed above.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Would probably help if people site their sources for Founding Dates.

 

 

You may also want to check out WD249 (US). It has a list of the Chapters from the A3 campaign -- they have an M marking under them which *might* be a Founding Millenia for the Chapter.

[Chinchillapimp]

"Would probably help if people site their sources for Founding Dates."

 

How dare you ask me to name sources! :D I had a lingering suspicion that was going to become a necessary part of this. You are certainly right though; that needs to happen if this list will be truly useful at all.

 

"You may also want to check out WD249 (US)..."

 

Will do!

[Ferrata]

I intentionally adjusted some of the dates so that there was less of a pattern. While there is a certain anal-ness that I can appreciate to laying out the dates according to a formula, it seems completely counter to the fluff to have exact spacing between the foundings. Rarely in any large bureaucracy does anything happen with a consistent pattern, let alone the largest empire ever created by humans. There would be countless factors influencing exactly when the High Lords would make the call to establish the next founding. Is there something in the fluff that would make the foundings seem planned millennium ahead of time?

The major probelm between the systems is intent. Your intent to to have a speculative list, while mine was created to be a rough guide. Your list, your trying to make it look realisitic so that *could* be the founding dates, but its not. Mine is no-way trying to look realisitic, but if were to estimate were a founding took place it would be around that date. I'm not saying the foundings were set distances apart, but for estimation formula work best.

[Chinchillapimp]

Ahhh, then yes

[Heru]

Hmm 13th Founding was the Dark Founding, I believe the Age of Apostasy happened right after that not after the Cursed Founding (Age of Apostasy was when High Lord Vandire went nuts right, and allot of SM Chapter info etc was lost?).

 

 

Edit: Nevermind the Age of Apostasy was M36 just after the Cursed Founding. ::Doh!::

 

 

Hmm anyone know why it was the 13th Dark Founding didn't have any official records?

[Tubal]

One theory about the decreased rate could be that the number of loyal and unmutated chapters have stabilized. If a certain percentage of chapters in a founding is purged of lost for whatever reason the number of chapters will grow slower, but eventually their numbers will reach a certain level that the HLoT consider enough. Any chapters that survive a few millennia are likely to keep going so fewer are lost, and fewer are created.

In other words, any more foundings are just to keep the numbers up.

 

Just a theory :)

[Chinchillapimp]

You may also want to check out WD249 (US). It has a list of the Chapters from the A3 campaign -- they have an M marking under them which *might* be a Founding Millenia for the Chapter.

Do you know where in WD249(US) it is?

 

I've scoured it and I'm not sure it's in there. The 40K articles are:

Index Astartes: The making of a Space Marine

Alien Menace part II: A further look at the Ork tribes on Armadeggon

Ancient Threat: The Chaos Land Raider

 

Any ideas?

[Brother Tyler]

The only complication with the possible founding dates shown in the Index Astartes article depicting the Chapters that participated in the Third War for Armageddon is the Mortifactors. I always saw those dates as the founding dates, too. And then Warriors of Ultramar came out. Where the IA showed the Mortifactors as M.40, a very recent founding. WoU, however, turned the Mortifactors into a Second Founding Successor of the Ultramarines.

 

So depending on how much stock you put in BL books, the dates given in the IA may or may not be accurate.

 

If you do consider those dates accurate, though, both the Angels of Fire and the Relictors (formerly the Fire Claws) were also from M.36.

 

I have to agree with Chinchillapimp on the regularity (or lack thereof) of Foundings. The Imperium creates new Foundings based on need, not a schedule. I think it is much more likely that there are varying gaps between Foundings, allowing for anywhere from a couple of centuries up to a couple of millennia between Foundings.

[Deadlight]

To be honest i think that WD writer got it wrong with the mortifactors.

 

Mortifactors have been around since 2nd edition and where listed as one of the first founding successor chapters of the ultramarines, in the ultramarine codex for 2nd edition. They are definiately not as new as the IA article suggests

[Ferrata]

I have to agree with Chinchillapimp on the regularity (or lack thereof) of Foundings. The Imperium creates new Foundings based on need, not a schedule. I think it is much more likely that there are varying gaps between Foundings, allowing for anywhere from a couple of centuries up to a couple of millennia between Foundings.

I agree, the foundings will be all over the place, with no pattern or regularity, but there is noway we can estimate this irregularity. We could not create a list of foundings with all of them correct or even close. With the irregular foundings, you might get one dead on, while the other might be a thousand years out. With the formula system, yes, you will probably never on the money but you shouldn't stray too far from the path.

[Aurelius Rex]

I was interested to read this thread, and some thought has gone into it. However, by laying down even speculative dates for the foundings outside the known ones you are holding your IA hostage to fortune and to GW if they finally do give a date for the other foundings, and also you are kind of treading on the toes of others by saying that 'My chapter was from the 6th founding in 555.M33' and stating such a wideranging thing as a fact.

 

A simple way to get round this is to state that they are 6th Founding, sure, but being ambiguous about the date even down to the Millennia if need be. To me this seems much more appreciative to others and if written well it detracts not a jot from the quality of your IA article. :angry:

[Kurgan the Lurker]

You may also want to check out WD249 (US). It has a list of the Chapters from the A3 campaign -- they have an M marking under them which *might* be a Founding Millenia for the Chapter.

Do you know where in WD249(US) it is?

 

I've scoured it and I'm not sure it's in there. The 40K articles are:

Index Astartes: The making of a Space Marine

Alien Menace part II: A further look at the Ork tribes on Armadeggon

Ancient Threat: The Chaos Land Raider

 

Any ideas?

 

My mistake, WD248 US. The "Emperor's Shield" IA article, page 76. It lists the Chapters that fought during the A3 Campaign and gives a millenium note to each Chapter. Now this *might* be a Founding date but then it might not as ther are some inconsistencies in the dates.

 

I'll list the Chapters and the M date attached to the image:

 

Celebrants M36-41

Black Dragons M36

Angels of Redemption M31

Blood Angels M31

Salamanders M31

Raptors M31

Black Templars M31

Mortifactors M40

Storm Lords M31

Storm Giatns M41

Omega Marines M40

Space Wolves M31

Angels of Fire M36

Silver Skulls M31

Marines Malevolent M32

Relictors M36

Sons of Guilliman M33

Celestial Lions M38

Angels of Vigilance M40

Angels Porphyr M31

Exorcists M40

White Scars M31

Flesh Tearers M31

Iron Champions - note says "founding unrecorded"

 

 

Mortifactors have been around since 2nd edition and where listed as one of the first founding successor chapters of the ultramarines, in the ultramarine codex for 2nd edition. They are definiately not as new as the IA article suggests

 

May want to check that. I just went thru my 2nd ed UM dex. Not only are the Mortifactors not listed as a "First Born" Chapter, but they aren't even pictured in the Codex Chapters section of the Codex.

[Chinchillapimp]

I was interested to read this thread, and some thought has gone into it. However, by laying down even speculative dates for the foundings outside the known ones you are holding your IA hostage to fortune and to GW if they finally do give a date for the other foundings, and also you are kind of treading on the toes of others by saying that 'My chapter was from the 6th founding in 555.M33' and stating such a wideranging thing as a fact.

 

A simple way to get round this is to state that they are 6th Founding, sure, but being ambiguous about the date even down to the Millennia if need be. To me this seems much more appreciative to others and if written well it detracts not a jot from the quality of your IA article. :P

I totally agree. Writing fiction around a speculative list of dates is likely to cause problems with later official fluff. That

[utilityzero]

well, i personally have never been of the impression that a founding was a one day event... i mean, it takes 50 years to create a chapter and if a dozenchapters are created at once... then they might not start on each one on the same day, and from what we have agreed upon here they don't all undergo the same level of training and mentoring, so they won't all actually 'found' on the same day, or even in the same year. a founding could concievably be spaced out over as much as a decade, or even a century.

 

you've got like 10,000 years to fit in 25 foundings, that's 4 per millenium, right? that would put the 21st founding in the end of the 35th, begining of the 36th millenium if i'm counting right. so by that system, he's just about right, but you'll never really know, it's best to just pick a founding in my opinion.