Behind Closed Doors..

[HunterOfTheFallen]

Greetings fellow brothers..I was just pondering tonight as I was finishing some DA sniper scouts and I found myself thinking about a DIY masonic chapter. I thought that it was a great idea especially if used with the DA rules (the worlds oldest secret society and the DA just seem to fit together) I thought that the chapter badge could be the square and compass...http://www.vtfreemasons.org/images/s&q_ltrhd.gif... with or without the G and thats pretty much how far I got before I went downstairs to post the idea up. So I just want to know what you guys think about it and if you have any further ideas...cheers! ;)

 

~HotF

[Ferrata]

I have no idea what the Masons are (actually, thats a lie, I know of them, but past that very little). But a note on the symbol, I would go for a more symbolic symbol as set-square and compass aren't really marine-y, maybe exchange them for something else? Set-Square = Flexed Arm, Compass = Pair of Swords.

[Severus6]

I think its possible to include that idea into a Chapter. Maybe based on the idea that the planet recruits from a world that has that symbology or belief system ingrained into the culture. Thus when a initiate is brought into the fold many of the old ways come with him. Another idea would be that this society is based not in a single Chapter but many. Several Chapters that share the same geneseed but not the same methodology work together, share information, and promote the common good. You could do this openly or privately,...privately may be better simply because of the concept you are trying to bring about. Just a thought, hope it helps.

 

Severus6

[Barret]

I thought the DA were the Masons. :)

 

I'd say go for using the Mason symbol, it's really iconic and recognizable... One thing you could do is, instead of having the Chapter organized into Companies, perhaps they're scattered across the galaxy into small groups (ie, 'lodges') and instead of actively taking to the battlefield with fire and sword, work behind the scenes to further their own objectives, in a similar fashion to the Inquisition (sometimes working with the =][=, sometimes...not...) and only on the most dire of occassions show up in force.

 

Whether their overriding goal is knowledge, power, something obscure, there should definately be something driving them, something they're not ready to have the Imperium know about.

 

It might be worth looking into the fluff around the Illuminti, as well. I mean, the 40k group, not the Dan Brown (*shudder*) version.

 

 

However, the most important question is... will they have fezes? ;)

 

 

Cheers,

 

Barret

 

 

(Also, I used to live across the street from a lodge. Seeing that giant symbol on the front of the building every morning on the way to work was creepy as hell.)

[Ferrata]

Going on what Barret had just said, they might work better as a section of the Inquistion over a Marine force. Though this is quite a radical change from what you suggested, it would allow for more Mason fluff to be brought across to the 40k world.

[Barret]

I dunno, I think prefer the idea that they aren't a part of the Inquisition. Unless...perhaps they're intermingled with the Inquistion? Maybe, instead of just being a Chapter that has secretive ways, they're part of a large organization that includes Inquisitors, Arbites, Governors, and the Space Marine Chapter is just their militant arm as they work towards some shadowy goal? Again, I say look into the Illuminati and the Star Child.

 

Also, if the Chapter is broken up into lots of small detachments across the Imperium, perhaps maintaining many strongholds on many worlds like the Iron Warriors did/the Black Templars do, they could possibly be...larger than anybody knows or are allowed to be? Dun-dun-duuuuun!

 

I really like this idea, just for the record. :)

 

 

Cheers,

 

Barret

[Ferrata]

Also, if the Chapter is broken up into lots of small detachments across the Imperium, perhaps maintaining many strongholds on many worlds like the Iron Warriors did/the Black Templars do, they could possibly be...larger than anybody knows or are allowed to be? Dun-dun-duuuuun!

Barret, I don't want to have to kill you :)

[Barret]

Ooh, ooh, and they could actually be a Chapter created in secret by a rogue Inquisitor using the geneseed of the lost primarchs of BOTH the missing legions, combined together by Fabius Bile, and they have recently recanted their Chaos way and begun serving the Imperium again after being lost in the warp, and go around handing out candy to children after single-handedly killing Abbadon!

 

 

 

...waitaminute...

 

 

*ducks*

 

We no longer talk to Barret, he has been rejected by a panel consisting of myself, a insane monkey and large rat. He has been locked in an airlock and is currently recieving his punishment via the Pain Mitten :) . Now, back on topic - Ferrata

 

The mitten! It itches! Oh, the itching!

 

 

 

--edit, for usefulness--

 

Okay, maybe they're not secretly larger than normal, but certainly a disguising of their true numbers, organization and locations would be characterful...

[HunterOfTheFallen]

wow those are great ideas..

 

One thing you could do is, instead of having the Chapter organized into Companies, perhaps they're scattered across the galaxy into small groups (ie, 'lodges')

Love this idea, the lodges make perfect sense.

 

Maybe based on the idea that the planet recruits from a world that has that symbology or belief system ingrained into the culture. Thus when a initiate is brought into the fold many of the old ways come with him.

Another good idea when having to recruit for new members.

 

Set-Square = Flexed Arm, Compass = Pair of Swords.

Interesting idea but I'll have to think about it further.

 

This would most likely be a side project because Im currently putting together a DA army but I really like the responses I've gotten so far. Also, the Hierarchal system could be set up in a way such as:

 

masons

master mason

1st degree master mason

2nd degree master mason

3rd degree master mason

(others maybe)

 

But yea, keep the ideas coming :D

 

~HotF

[Commissar Molotov]

I would avoid the word 'mason' when it comes to the ranks of your marines. These aren't masons, these are genetically-enhanced super-soldiers inspired by the masons. Now, I'll admit that like Ferrata I know little about the Masons. I know that a lot is made of their initiation rituals, so that's something you could consider. I know there's varying levels of knowledge, something like the Relictors' Conclave or the Dark Angels' Inner Circle. Both of which are strong ideas.

 

Now, the Imperial Fists, Black Templars and Dark Angels all recruit from multiple worlds. The designers, I think , have made a conscious effort to (for the most part) emphasise the chapter culture over the culture of their homeworlds. I like the idea of the lodges spread throughout the galaxy, but I would focus on the chapter's overriding culture rather than the myriad individual cultures of the planets your marines choose to recruit from.

 

Unless, that is, you're recruiting from one single world and then dispatching them across the galaxy - however I'd prefer the former idea to the latter.

 

An interesting idea - just be careful not to make it 'Masons in Space', but rather 'Space Marines with mason touches'.

[HunterOfTheFallen]

An interesting idea - just be careful not to make it 'Masons in Space', but rather 'Space Marines with mason touches'.

Very true, I didnt think about that and you really helped :D I like the first idea about the recruiting better than the second. Thanks for the idea :)

 

~HotF

[st.germaine]

I don't want to end up like Barret but when fezzes(sp?) were mentioned, I had an image flash before me... fezzes, beards, short guys in power armor, little bikes, beer, cigars... ...I'm having visions of Tyranid chow...

 

I'll go away now. :D

[ironloki]

Hmmm yes the masons are an interesting bunch. Sometimes I think they overplay their historical importance (Being related to the templars, Egyptians etc) but I guess that gives them some sort of power/influence and romantic pull (Most groups do this). Infact perhaps you could tweak that into your chapter. They believe they serve a higher purpose. They have a specific mission.

 

My initial thoughts upon seeing this was "The sensei and star child". Hooded warriors meeting in small groups in remote parts of planets spread across the galaxy. Hiding a secret of sorts, a holy grail...okay so thats geting cliche but you get the idea. You could still be linked to the part of the Inquisition but I cannot remember which faction dominates the Inquisition at the time (Those who believe in the rebirth theory and those who don't). Im not sure if it again would be too cliche for it to become a society like the deathwatch with various members from other chapters serving one part of the inquisition. Im not sure if this would grate on the fluff buffs though :D

 

For more info I would use good old wikipedia and perhaps have a look at some Templar/ other religious military orders for some additional ammunition to fire.

 

As with the others my knowledge of the masons are limited to the Simpsons episode, the occasional mentions in films and my Military order books.

[Brother Tyler]

My DIY Chapter, the Fists of Purity, were originally a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes with Masonic influences. The reason for this was that I liked certain elements from the Black Templars rules, but wanted a more "mainstream" Chapter. There are legends that the Knights Templar, once suppressed and dissolved, influenced a number of other organizations. One of the principle organizations that often traces its origins back to the Templars is the Freemasons. So I decided to make my quasi-Black Templars DIY would follow certain Masonic influences.

 

There are many many books on the Masons, and also quite a few on the Templars. A couple I referred to when making my DIY Chapter were Born in Blood by John J. Robinson and The Temple and the Lodge by Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh.

 

Some things to keep in mind, though, are that the Freemasons are a distinctly non-military organization. Where the monastic orders (Knights Templar, Hospitallers, and Teutonic Knights) that influenced the Black Templars are easy to pattern into a Chapter of Space Marines, the Masons would be more pacifistic. I decided to model certain elements of rank progression along the same lines as those within the Freemasons, although I generally stuck to the "main" body of Freemasonry (instead of incorporating various appendant bodies such as the York Rite, Scottish Rite, Shriners, Sojourners, etc.), the so-called "Blue Lodge" (this was why my Fists of Purity were blue).

 

You might like certain elements from a couple of the appendant bodies. The York Rite has a couple of ranks that include the title "Knight", including a Templar rank. The Scottish Rite uses a double-headed eagle as its main symbol. These were two elements that I included in the original version of the Fists of Purity.

 

My suggestion would be to second the suggestion to merely incorporate certain Masonic influences without making your Chapter Freemasons that have become Space Marines. The Freemasons often describe Freemasonry as a system of morality taught through allegory and symbol. In that, you could use Masonic elements as the basis of your warrior cult and Chapter organization without being overt. I imagine that the Freemasons would see a portrayal of their order as Space Marines (xenophobic, narrow-minded, violent) as being somewhat inaccurate (despite the alleged ties to the Knights Templar and oft-touted soldiers/warriors who were/are Freemasons).

 

If you'd like, I'll shoot a file to you with the stuff I created for the Fists of Purity as a Masonically influenced Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes. I have since almost completely done away with this aspect/influence, so their wouldn't be any conflict if you're aiming for distinctiveness.

 

+EDIT+ Heh heh, I had to fix one word. It's now in orange. I originally had "wouldn't" in there, the complete opposite of what I meant. :D

[utilityzero]

i've known masons and talked to them and learned what i could first hand myself, a secret society is just too cool to leave totally untouched, but from what i know of them, all the most easily incorporated aspects of the masons are already sort of part of the astartes mystery. but for some suggestions:

 

supposedly you can only join the masons if one of them finds you and decides you are worthy (this is not true from what i have been told, you can be invited to join if you simply show interest to a member.) you said you like the idea of recruiting from multiple worlds, how about from any world, but they only choose extremely exceptional candidates, so your chapter would then probably have less than a thousand marines as they don't recruit to fill their ranks, they only recruit when they find someone worthy of their gene-seed. this espeically works if you choose the 'lodges' idea. (didn't Horus base his legion around hunting lodges?) as the individual lodges crusade around the universe doing their thing they would recruit exceptional youths where ever they find them.

 

secrecy. all marine chapters are reclusive by nature, some even more so than others, like the DA, this you already know, but your chapter could go even further. it depends on how your organize your chapter though. if lodges are simply another name for companies then you can have an inner circle much like the DA, if you organize the lodges more like BT crusades then you could have it where each 'lodge' is lead by a member of the inner circle, possibly with a handful of trusted advisors who form his honor guard. (someone has to know what's going on if he dies after all.) on occasion the members of your inner circle meet to discuss whatever it is that they are hunting. but since no one member knows everything, they can't reveal the chapter's secrets even if they want to.

 

also, you could use the G in the symbol if you give them a name like Guardians or something of that nature. Guardians of the Standing Stones or something like that?

[HunterOfTheFallen]

very good ideas so far...Im taking notes and putting everything together so I can look at it all on one page..What color scheme do you think would work best for them? Maybe dark red/grey for masonry or something else?

 

~HotF

[Brother Tyler]

All the pictures I've ever seen of Freemasons have them wearing black (suits/tuxedos) with white gloves and aprons. Some of the aprons are plain white and some are really fancy, usually with blue/black and gold designs embroidered on.

[utilityzero]

isn't their a non-secular arm of the masons who call themselves the knights templar?

[ironloki]

isn't their a non-secular arm of the masons who call themselves the knights templar?

 

It is possible. Im sure I found something via google that stated the Templar's existed today. But the Internet is a scary thing and its easy for someone to put up false claims. (In my view the Templar's where wiped out and didn't travel across the Atlantic which was impossible especially when you look at the sorry state of the Templar's "Fleet")

[Brother Tyler]

The York Rite of the Masons, an appendant body, is for Christians - you have to be a professed Christian in order to attain the highest order within this rite, that of a Knight Templar. Don't confuse the title of this rank with the historical monastic order.

 

Any relationship with the historical Knights Templar may have been a byproduct of the writings of an historical Mason named Ramsay. While he didn't specify the Knights Templar in his writings, they were the monastic order seized upon by Masons and non-Masons alike when he referred to an order of crusading knights evolving into the Masons.

 

All of the above courtesy of a National Geographic special on the Secrets of the Freemasons (or something like that) I found while channel surfing yesterday. It's amazing how things like that pop up when a question arises here at the B&C. :tu:

[DARKTROOPER]

you could do something similar to Lodges in the Horus Heresy books except more secret and widespread. Using phrases, signals and symbols they communicate to eachother secretly. While I don't know alot about the masons I do know they value knowledge and morality. Perhaps they seek ti unleash the starchild? Perhaps they seek to use forbidden powers for good?(The wierd satanic/devil worshiping theory I've heard) Since (to my knowledge) Freemasons are forbidden to talk about their practices you won't find much information about their ceremonies.

However things to incorperate.

A secret agenda

Many ceremonies

Secret signals, symbols and phrases

Wheels within wheels

Masonic offshoots

[HunterOfTheFallen]

isn't their a non-secular arm of the masons who call themselves the knights templar?

Most scholars agree that the masons and the knights templar were not really related but that the connection was made up to make the masons seem more "romantic"

 

A secret agenda

Many ceremonies

Secret signals, symbols and phrases

Wheels within wheels

Masonic offshoots

I like a lot...especially the secret signals used to communicate with each other

[iron father]

isn't their a non-secular arm of the masons who call themselves the knights templar?

 

There is indeed; whether that has any historical basis is a different matter, but there is an organization within the Freemasons called the Knights Templar (I've been inside their meeting room within the Masonic lodge in Philadelphia, I highly recommend checking it out if you are ever in town).

[aclark79]

Tread lightly my brother or you may recieve a visit from the =]I[=.

 

 

All joking aside, I am a Master Mason of Willamette Lodge #2, as heck and AM, Portland Oregon. The greatest secret of Masonry is that it has no secrets! (I don't expect anyone to believe that).

 

If you've got any questions I'd be happy to awnser them within the limitations of my obligations as a Mason.

 

Some of the things that I would include in a Chapter based on Masonry are the names and belife system of the Chapter. Masons share a common belief in a supreme being commonly refered to as the G.A.O.T.U (go-ah-two) which stands for the Grand Architect of the Universe. Discusion of politics and religion is forbiden withing lodge meetings in order to promote harmony within the bortherhood. You could place the Emperor in the position of the supreme being, which could place the Chapter in conflict with most Marine intepritations of the Emperor (could be one of thier secrets).

 

I would use the names of the officers of the lodge as the names for officers and rank sturcture.

 

chapter master = Grand Master

Captians = Worshipful Master

Sgt = Senior Warden

Empeors Champion - Tyler (guy with sword who guards the door (sword usually symbolic))

 

In the same vein I would use the masonic symbols morhped with IMperial symbology, ie the Square and Compass with the imperial eagle replacing the G, things like that.

 

Masons also have white aprons, unadorned for regular masons, adorned for officers. You have to have aprons if you've got masons. Officers in lodges also have jewlery representing thier position on some kind of chain, you could have cool chains and symbols on your marines.

 

Theres alot of other stuff you could do, let me know what your thinking.

[aclark79]

An example of Masonic and 40 marine icons in a sample chapter banner:

 

http://www.pbase.com/aclark79/image/64795405/large.jpg

 

 

Square and Comapss with the IMperial eagle with laurel around head.

 

Masonic pillars on each side, one with stary heaveans and other with militanty symbols (not masonic), use marine iconagraphy, maybe a helmet, crossed swords.

 

All seeing eye to represent emperor, iron halo behind, obvious refrence, checkerboard patterns are considered very masonic.